What is wrong with my angelfish?

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Temp 82. Gravel is approx 1" thick. While I was at work, all the fish almost suffocated. Bf saw them gasping for air. Wisely, he did a 25% water change with prime, and the fish calmed down. Honestly, I don't know what I'm treating for. That's the problem. I had 4 baby angels. After 2 weeks, the smallest got torn tail fin. I started the 50/50 tap/bottled water changed to lower the 8.2 ph. His tail looked as if it was getting better. Then, he stopped eating, started hiding, then for 2 days FLOATED around the tank (second day the hsp tank). After death, I could see his side fins were almost half gone. No fuzz around the edges, just gone. This fish was not bullied. It just happened. The next day, the larger coy marble angle began staying at the top, clamping fins, and shimmying....But still eating. I was scared. I put parasite guard in (after watching him for hours). He showed some improvement, (and I misread the instructions.....thought I was supposed to just change water and put filter back after 48 hours). So after I replaced filter, sparkle got 90% worse in 1 hour. He crashed at the bottom, and stayed. I freaked. I didn't know what to do. If JUST did a water change. Bf came home, and did as I said (decided the problem was bacterial, raised ph with just tap and prime, added new meds. Today, I added the next dose of meds. Shawn came home to fish gasping at the top. Sparkle actually looks a little better. The "bruise" under his Gil is smaller, the spot his side fin meetsllun e body is more white. But they're all shimmying and their colors are dark (as if mad or distressed). I'm seriously thinking of putting the filter back in, puttin peat in tomorrow, and hoping. .....I wrote that last night. Forgot to send. When I woke up, the were all swimming around ! I was happy until I raised the lid and noticed its 84 degrees. I'm thinking that won't hurt them, but wondering if they are only swimming cause hot. And boy is the tank a cloudy mess. I think I will try to finish the med combo, but I will do a 20% water change each time to make it hit them less. And do a larger change if I see signs of stress. Because sparkle had something wrong before I started all this, (and its hard to believe shimmying, hanging, and a gill color change is all due to my mistakes with ph). Any advice is welcome!
 
http://youtu.be/oTnMIkTMB5k

Angelfish full tank. Hard to see because I'm using night light to stress them less. I would absolutely LOVE for someone to say "it's gill flukes" or "bacterial" or internal parasites or septicemia. If someone could tell me what's wrong, I could treat correctly. I think I was on the right track with the parasite guard, cause it covered everything, and they didn't freak out when the med was in the tank. And, no ones fins looked ragged after i slowly lowered ph using Ro/tap mix. My bf was trying to help, but now they've just gone through a huge ph shift (he put 50%tap with prime in yesterday....ph back up to 8.0-8.2, and 1 dose of para guard, only 1 day of peace, and now 2 days of maricide and maracyn. So....please, someone tell me what to do now. Continue with treatment? Put carbon back in and leave them alone? I'm so confused I can't even TRY to make a decision!
Last thing, I went to the pet store I got them from, and noticed something on the baby angelfish gills there....like a silver SHINY patch on the gill. I took a video because I have seen this on my fish (not the angels, but others. Maybe it will help me diagnose?
http://youtu.be/Vsk4KMbcUEQ
 
Kelly5978 said:
Temp 82. Gravel is approx 1" thick. While I was at work, all the fish almost suffocated. Bf saw them gasping for air. Wisely, he did a 25% water change with prime, and the fish calmed down. Honestly, I don't know what I'm treating for. That's the problem. I had 4 baby angels. After 2 weeks, the smallest got torn tail fin. I started the 50/50 tap/bottled water changed to lower the 8.2 ph. His tail looked as if it was getting better. Then, he stopped eating, started hiding, then for 2 days FLOATED around the tank (second day the hsp tank). After death, I could see his side fins were almost half gone. No fuzz around the edges, just gone. This fish was not bullied. It just happened. The next day, the larger coy marble angle began staying at the top, clamping fins, and shimmying....But still eating. I was scared. I put parasite guard in (after watching him for hours). He showed some improvement, (and I misread the instructions.....thought I was supposed to just change water and put filter back after 48 hours). So after I replaced filter, sparkle got 90% worse in 1 hour. He crashed at the bottom, and stayed. I freaked. I didn't know what to do. If JUST did a water change. Bf came home, and did as I said (decided the problem was bacterial, raised ph with just tap and prime, added new meds. Today, I added the next dose of meds. Shawn came home to fish gasping at the top. Sparkle actually looks a little better. The "bruise" under his Gil is smaller, the spot his side fin meetsllun e body is more white. But they're all shimmying and their colors are dark (as if mad or distressed). I'm seriously thinking of putting the filter back in, puttin peat in tomorrow, and hoping. .....I wrote that last night. Forgot to send. When I woke up, the were all swimming around ! I was happy until I raised the lid and noticed its 84 degrees. I'm thinking that won't hurt them, but wondering if they are only swimming cause hot. And boy is the tank a cloudy mess. I think I will try to finish the med combo, but I will do a 20% water change each time to make it hit them less. And do a larger change if I see signs of stress. Because sparkle had something wrong before I started all this, (and its hard to believe shimmying, hanging, and a gill color change is all due to my mistakes with ph). Any advice is welcome!
Click to expand...


Skip adding the peat moss. Trust me, fiddling with the pH is only going to exacerbate the problems. This is something that almost everyone on the forums will agree with.

Leave the carbon out of your tank. It does nothing except remove the medication you are putting in your tank.

If you are seeing improvement with the medication you are using, then continue using it.

84 degrees is kind of high for a temperature. Keep in mind that the higher the temperature for fish then the faster they will grow and breed but the shorter their life span will be because of the increased metabolism. Also, Bacteria will grow faster in a warmer environment. If you suspect it is bacteria I would suggest that you lower the temperature of your tank to below 80 if possible.

Did you completely remove the filter? or did you just take out the filter media? If you removed the entire filter you need to add some sort of water movement or else your fish will run out of air. Just taking out the filter pad is sufficient when you are medicating a tank.
 
I only removed the carbon insert to the filter. And, i just bought peat moss, but will hold off, as the fish have had too many fluctuations lately as it is (bf going back to only tap water). I thought I saw improvement with parasite guard, but I only used it one day. Then my bf concinced me I was wrong, and switched to maracyn2 and maracide, thinking it was parasites. I've looked at 1000 pics, posts threads, etc. we thought parasites because of the silver patches on the other tanks fishes gills. (And now sparkle has grey spot on gill). I'm pretty convinced after talking to a vet that its either columnarus or septicemia. My question is: am I treating correctly? Should I switch to maracyn 1 instead or maracide? And ARE ALL THESE MEDICINES MAKING THE TDS TOO HIGH, which will kill my babies anyways? I almost want to do nothing for a week, and them start whatever treatment is recommended for columnarus /septicemia, but I'm afraid sparkle won't make it a week.
 
And, tank is typically 80. I had temp raised cause someone said that would help fight infection
 
I really don't think it's calumnaris. The fish would already be dead. Calumnairs speeds up with heat and usually kills in just a couple days. It leaves cotton like tufts near mouth, I didn't see anything like that.

I also agree not to use any peat moss. Leave your pH alone. I've been keeping Angels in pH 8.4 for a long time.

You've treated the tank for parasites, fungus and bacteria. I like the idea of just waiting to see what happens. Honestly, it's very possible that you just got bad stock, if they continue to die. Angels from big box stores almost always come from large fish farms where numbers outweigh quality. I have had imported Angels die for seemingly no reason, sometimes it just happens.

Did you see the pictures I posted on page 2? There's a shot of one of my marble Angels. It's got silver on it too, does your silver look anything like that?

If you do end up losing your Angels, I don't suggest buying any more. Adult Angels get pretty large and 20 gallons is a bit small for them. I also posted pictures of Adult Angels on page 2 so you can see their adult size.
 
Also can you check your pH?

Also add an air bubbler to up the oxygen if you didn't already do that, or lower the water level a couple inches to make the water splash and blend in more oxygen. When you raise the tank temp it is harder for the fish to get oxygen.

I had a pH crash recently and it was heartbreaking. Stay strong. It is hard for people to know what is wrong sometimes.
 
The ph is now 8.4. I'm not sure which thread this is, but I started at 8. I was using RO/tap (50/50) to lower it. My bf read something about bacteria in bottled water, came home, did a 50% water change with just tap water and prime, and ph jumped to 8.4. I don't know how they survived! Now my choice is to use peat moss (but I don't know how much to use), start the 50/50 again (which was working. I had it down to 7.9), or nothing...cause they've already been through so much. What should I do???
 
And, I have a bubble curtain in the back. Also a shell bubbler, but the angels don't like it
 
Unless there is a mis diagnosis or emergency, you should complete the medications, stopping mid treatment can cause the problem to worsen, as the weak germs/bacteria/ are killed but the strong ones stay and multiply with resistance to meds.

That said, you should use as little of additives as possible and only as much as necessary.

The high pH could also be affecting the treatments too, I don't have that knowledge.

You might want to get a big container and start steeping the peat moss in there, for if and when you need it. I haven't ever used it but what I read the people kept it in a big water barrel to get the water softer naturally. I believe it had a pump to circulate the water around.

At the next opportunity check your water parameters, as it is possible you have killed off BB in your tank and filter, which means more water changes.

Also after the treatment time I would do several 50%+ water changes to try and get out as much of the med s in the water as possible. And even run carbon after for a few days.

Clean fresh water is helpful for the fish. You may need to cut your water with some % of RO, maybe to keep it around 8. Do you know what your GK/KH are?

Some fish stores will check it for you if you don't have a test kit. Some charge$.

Hopefully someone will be able to help better.
 
I lowered it to 7.9 by using 1/2 to, half tap. My bf decided that was bad, and did 50% change with just tap and prime. That's how it skyrocketed. Question is: do I try to lower again? Or have I put em through too much already? I bought peat today, but don't know how to use it . Do I boil it? How much?
 
Try doing a search for the peat moss usage. I haven't needed it, we usually have a lower ph.

If the water ph is that high out of the tap it may be good to use some RO, BUT you may be lacking minerals which are needed to have a buffer.

You need some water chemistry help and I am limited there.

I think you would want to do the change slowly, like change a 1/4 to RO, then the next day change to 1/3 and then to 1/2 so as to not further shock the fish.

Sorry I can't be more help.
 
If you know of anyone I could ask....and, it's 8.0 - 8.2 out of the tap. I was using RO/tap 50/50 to lower it. I had it to 7.9, and my idiot bf did a 50% water change with only tap and prime. The fluctuation is what made it shoot up. I'm lucky they're alive ....so far. Poor babies have been through sooo much! Now, I want to go back to 50/50, or use peat, but I'm not sure how, and I'm afraid more fluctuations will do them in. I also heard that medications adds to the TDS, and raises ph. So, that's probably affecting it too. They seem cranky and unhappy, but they look a little healthier. 2 more days of meds. I'm just unsure of whether to mess with the ph now or not.
 
Me bid, please don't think I'm ignoring you! My phone sux, and I can't find things after I've read them once. It doesn't matter anyways, I'm probably going to give up. I feel like a total failure! And I can't stand watching my fish suffer like this, being helpless to help them. I convinced myself I was dealing with bacterial septicemia (because of the bloody look where the side fins meet the body, red eyes, and a few other matching descriptions). Also, I believed it was columnarus (white on mouth, shiny silver patches on body...mainly gills, shimmying, etc). They also probably picked up more stuff from the stress of the ph crash my bf caused (doin 50% water change and taking out the RO water I had slowly added to replace with complete tap, resulting in a rise from 7.9 -8.4 overnight. Now all of them are swimming with their top (Idk what it's called....fin? Not dorsal, but the top that makes an angelfish look triangular) lowered. Like when they swim fast, except they're not moving. On the 3rd day of treatment (macaryn and macaryn2) they're worse. Sparkle now has an open wound on gill (partially covered in the shiny silver stuff, and under a flashlight, all of their gills appear green. Their bodies do seem to have gold patches, but it's probably just color. Now, I don't know what to think, except I'm not good at this. I'm afraid to add parasite meds to what I'm already putting in the tank, and afraid to start messing with ph, because another crash will surely kill them. (Then again, 8.4 ph may kill them anyways! ). This is something that started with my daughters bettas, and the gourami 10 gallon tank. I used the same net at first and contaminated all tanks. All of my relatives have healthy tanks, and I'm so upset I'm just not able to maintain one. Here is sparkle today
Jun 2, 2013 - YouTube
Jun 2, 2013 - YouTube
Jun 2, 2013 - YouTube
I cry just watching him. To top it all off, my 10 gallon tank, that did have gourami (til she got a white mouth and poop, sat in the gravel instead of bullying everyone, had a small indent in the side of her head, where white stuff was forming,and had the silver patches on her gills that puffed up after death, now has tiny white strings sticking to the glass and a fake plant (only on one side) this is a the tank went without a light for 10 days, so someone suggested it might be algae or anchor worms. I just can't do anything right it seems. Only q
 
Well I think you just finally confirmed it. The change in fin position is called clamped fins. It is easily a sign of a pH change or sickness in fish (This is what I see when my GBRs have issues).

The thing you said that made me think is the open wounds on fish.

Excerpt from a fish health book:

Clinical signs of ulcer-forming and systemic infections caused by Gram-negative bacteria include the following: lethargy, anorexia, abnormal swimming patterns/spinning, hemmorrhagic lesions on the skin, ulcerative skin lesions, abdominal distension/ascites, abnormal position in the water column, pop eye, gill necrosis, and mortality.

I'm not sure but it sounds like your fish are going through a lot of those symptoms.

Maracyn Plus / Maracyn 1 and 2 combo / Furan 2 / Triple Sulfa /

Use any those as a primary treatment. I still recommend a methylene blue dip for anything bacterial as a first strike following it up with the preferred treatment method if that is any possibility at all.

Bad things happen on accident, my room mate and I recently lost over 20 fish due to cross contamination and I am still slowly losing fish. Thankfully it didn't make it to my cichlid tank. On top of that my ridiculously expensive betta is finally recovering from fin rot. Bad things can and do happen, you obviously care a lot about the well being of your fish and are working your butt off when others would have flushed them and put the tank up for sale on craigslist.
 
Mebbid...thx for the kind words. I reread 3 times. I don't want to give up! I think I missed the "diagnosis"? Is it the ph? Or cross contamination? And of which thing? So the parasite guard won't help anything? What caused my fishes open wound? I was so upset because it made me think parasites again....when I thought I hAd it narrowed down to septicemia or columnaris.now I'm confused again. It's these darn silver/grey patches on the gills! They're driving me nuts! Cause no one knows what they are! So I'd the m1/2 don't work, then furan2? I read something bout kanaplex. I will keep trying as long as they're breathing!
 
Kelly5978 said:
Mebbid...thx for the kind words. I reread 3 times. I don't want to give up! I think I missed the "diagnosis"? Is it the ph? Or cross contamination? And of which thing? So the parasite guard won't help anything? What caused my fishes open wound? I was so upset because it made me think parasites again....when I thought I hAd it narrowed down to septicemia or columnaris.now I'm confused again. It's these darn silver/grey patches on the gills! They're driving me nuts! Cause no one knows what they are! So I'd the m1/2 don't work, then furan2? I read something bout kanaplex. I will keep trying as long as they're breathing!
Click to expand...


The white threads look a lot like algae. What is the lighting period on your tank?

I would be willing to put money on your fish having a bacterial infection. They can cause the cysts to develop on your fish as well as a large number of other things that your fish are experiencing. The medications I pointed out are all broad spectrum antibiotics and should cover most bases with possible bacterial infections.
 
Thanks. I agree! I started triple sulpha today. Ordered furan2 and kanaplex in case it doesn't work. Thx for all your help. I'll let you know how it goes!!!!
 
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