what to do about my tap water

[nisi]

If I should do anything at all, that is.

out of the tap (goes through a softener and an iron conditioner)
pH 7.4 immediately, about 8.4 after sitting a day
GH 1
KH 19
pretty high iron

out of the well, untreated
pH 7.4 initially, about 8.4 after sitting a day
GH 29
KH 19
super high iron - as in it gets cloudy and yellowish within minutes and after a day an orange silt starts to cover everything, we get an orange dust on the grass when we water the lawn


So, I keep reading that softened water is bad for fish and plants. Ok, but would the untreated water be any better? If so, what can I do about the iron? I don't want an orange fish tank. Should I add something to the tap water instead? Should I leave well enough alone and keep on using the tap water as is?


Also, any tips for managing water changes? I have to let the water sit out, or aerate it, to get the pH to where it eventually ends up, so I can't use it straight from the tap to get the right temperature. Right now, with only a 5gal tank to worry about, I've been aerating a bucket of water for a few hours then pouring it into milk jugs to store it. When it's time for a water change, I fill a bucket with hot water and float the milk jugs in it for a few minutes, monitoring the temp until it gets warm enough (which is surprisingly fast). While it's kind of a pain, it's workable when I'm only changing ~2 gallons at a time. But now I'm starting to set up a 20gal tank, and I just can't see doing the same thing on 5x the scale. I know other folks here have the same pH issue I do. How do you do water changes?

 

[AlissasDad]

What about getting purified water or an R/O system? It's a pain, but with your water situation, I don't see any alternatives short of adding a bunch of crap to your water

 

[SpeedEuphoria]

my tap water is similar but not quite as bad. My PH goes from 7.4-7.6 out of the tap then up to 8.0-8.2. Currently I have lots of live plants and dont use CO2 injection so I dont do WC's very often. But I have done them alot using straight tap water and not letting it sit out. Now I dont do as many and try to let it sit out, b/c if I dont the CO2 fluctuation seems to cause some BBA algae for me.

 

[nisi]

Specifically what kind of crap would I have to add to it? Minerals to raise the GH, but I don't know of anything to lower KH. Or do I even need to lower the KH? What problems would a high KH cause? Because that might be my simplest option. A RO unit is not in the budget right now. I could buy big jugs of distilled water somewhere, but then wouldn't I still have to add stuff to it since GH and KH would both be zero? Then I might as well add something to the tap water and save myself the trouble.


I do have an idea I'm testing out right now. If I let the untreated water sit for long enough, I'm hoping the cloudiness will clear and the rust (I assume) will settle enough that I can veeery carefully pour clear water off the top. And then.. what? Mix it with distilled water? How much? 50-50?


Speed- is your GH and KH like mine too? Very low GH and very high KH? And your plants do well in it? When I'm ready to plant you're going to have to tell me your secret. I tried a plant in the 5gal and it's all but dead

 

[SpeedEuphoria]

My GH and KH both testes ~20 when I tested tap, I have since lost my test kit and need to retest my tanks and tap.

My plants seem fine for the most part. Tom Barr is an expert and said that KH is what really matters and could be an issue. KH is also what effects fish. I have no issues with fish in mine with high KH.

Heres a short thread:
really hard water - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report

 

[Mudfrog]

So, I keep reading that softened water is bad for fish and plants. Ok, but would the untreated water be any better? If so, what can I do about the iron? I don't want an orange fish tank. Should I add something to the tap water instead? Should I leave well enough alone and keep on using the tap water as is?

I have extremely hard water at my house as well. Instead of using the Sodium Chloride I use Potassium Chloride, the Potassium will make your plants grow like weeds and I have not seen any ill effects on any of my fish. Been using it for over 3 years now.

It does cost more then the salt but it's better for you as well

 

[jsoong]

You can prob. acclimatize hardy fish to your water. Using (ion-exchanged) softened water will not be any better for your fish (the osmotic pressure is actually higher), and if you ever want plants or inverts, the absence of Ca/Mg will cause deficiencies.

The high iron content is problematic. A R/O unit will get rid of it. In theory, you can chelate out the iron (with EDTA, eg). I know some water filter will do that, but it is quite expensive. <My fridge filter claims to be able to remove Iron, but it is $60 a pop & doesn't last too long ..... esp. when there is heavy contamination.> I don't know if anyone actually tried obtaining jsut the EDTA & use that directly (should be cheaper).

If you must doctor your water, in the short term, mixing store bought R/O water with your tap might be the most cost effective. You can also experiment with peat filtering, peat may be able to reduce your iron level to acceptable levels.

As for water change, you are going to have to have some stored water. Maybe get a 10-20 gal rubbermaid tub, put in your tap water (& R/o mix or peat filter if that is what works), and let the whole thing outgas to stabalize the pH. Then when you want to do a water change, put in a heater to get the temp right.

 

[nisi]

I'll look into KCl for the softener. That's a good idea, even just for us.

So, I should mix the un-softened water with distilled or RO water? And that will bring the GH and KH down to manageable levels? At what ratio should I mix it?

The high iron content is problematic. A R/O unit will get rid of it. In theory, you can chelate out the iron (with EDTA, eg). I know some water filter will do that, but it is quite expensive.

Why is the high iron problematic? I'm not doubting it is, I just want to understand why. And what levels would be considered ok? I don't have an iron test kit but I'll probably throw one in my cart next time I order something. I really don't see me getting a RO unit any time soon, and I don't think I'm quite up to trying to chelate it out. Would something like the API Tap Water Filter help with the iron?

By the way, my experiment with the iron worked. I let the untreated water sit out and it cleared and I was able to pour off most of it without upsetting the orange sediment, and after a day nothing more has settled out. I'm sure that helps with the iron, though it's probably still quite high.

if you ever want plants or inverts, the absence of Ca/Mg will cause deficiencies.

Yeah, I'm learning that. My lone plant is pretty much dead, and I lost a ghost shrimp tonight. I would like to have plants and shrimp, so what can I do about the Ca and Mg? Could I add something like R/O Right ? If so, why couldn't I just add that to my softened water, which already has the iron lowered to a more reasonable level?


I apologize for the game of 20 questions, but my head is spinning trying to understand all this I really appreciate the help!

 

[Purrbox]

Don't bother with an Iron test kit. The hobby grade test kits simply don't measure accurately at the levels typically found in aquariums.

 

[jsoong]

As far as high Fe being a problem, I am thinking of the staining of ornament, glass etc & the aesthetic problems. FAIK, Fe don't cause major problem with fish health. <Although people also don't talk about levels so high that rust settles out!> OTOH, since your settling out experiment works, that might just be the ticket!

As for mixing R/O with tap, the ratio depends on what you start with & what you want to achieve. In your case, mixing 50:50 would bring your Kh to 10'ish & pH of 7.8 or so .... pretty good for most things.

You can add R/O right or other source of Ca/Mg to your softened water. The problem might be the high osmotic load. The ion-exchanger replaces 2 Na (or K) for each Ca or Mg ion, so you increase your TDS (total dissolved solids) by 50%. If you then add more stuff to replace the Ca/Mg, you increase the TDS even more. You might end up with an osmotic load like sea water.... Actually a lot of FW fish can live in near SW type osmotic levels <some cichlid loves it>, but I am not so sure about the plants, most don't do well even with low levels of Na. <They seem to handle K much better.>

 

[reun]

well, Kh is basicaly your alkalinity and your ability to buffer your PH. considering that your PH untreated and treated is still in peramiters, I wouldnt be too concerned.

what I would be concerned about is your 1 GH...thats fish killing low...not may species live in those conditions.

if it was me, if i had easy access to both the filtered and un filtered water, i would use a mixture of both. I treat my tap water, so I use 5 gallon containers. you could do the same. I would reccomend grabbing a "cleaning" solution. there are various products on the market that decontaminate water for aquarium use. use that to make sure nothing bad is in the well water as a precaution. a mixture should give you a balanced GH number though.

as far as the PH, i wouldnt use a buffer or anything, I would just buy some real driftwood for your tank to help keep PH stable since it goes on the high side after sitting a while.

last but not least, I cannot verify this, but several people told me alot of the negative bacteria in water(namely the one that causes ick) ussually dies after 24 hours, so I let my water sit a day before adding it. (well, not only in case that is true, but also I have to use a de chlorifyer as they put small amounts of chlorine in my tap water)

anyway, someone else might set me straight on some of this, thats just what i know so far!

 

[jsoong]

Sorry, reun, mixing softened & unsoftened water won't work.

The main thing to understand with an ion-exchange softener is that it EXCHANGES Na for the Ca/Mg. So even though the GH measures 1, the Cations are still there. It is just that the cations are now Sodium & the GH kits can't measure it.

In hard water of 20 degree, the Ca level would be about 360ppm = 90 meq of Ca. The exchanger puts in 2 Na for each Ca, so the softened water has 180 meq of Na. This is equal to a 1.1% salt solution .... about 1/3 the level of Sea water! <No wonder the plants are dead ..... my plants can't survive more than 0.3% salt.>

So mixing the softened water with tap will bring the GH down, but it will not bring the total osmolar load down (which the fish/plants see).

BTW, the pH change is likely due to CO2 off gassing. It is not a buffer problem (since his KH is 20 also). This pH shift is also the likely reason the Iron Oxides are precipitating out.

 

[reun]

ok, thank you for clarifying. i did not see she was using that type of a softener, i was assuming it was a standard filtration system.

and this would be why i added a disclaimer at the bottom, lol.