What to do?

[yellowjacket171]

I have three newly purchased bleeding heart tetras I introduced into my tank about one week ago and I did not quarentine them. Bad mistake I know. They all three have Ich. Nobody else in my tank is showing signs of Ich yet. Not sure how long it would be until they do. I have been treating with Rid Ich and Melafix, doing a 30% to 50% daily water change and a gravel vac every other day. Just yesterday I did a real good gravel vac, washed all my fake plants and ornaments in very hot water, cleaned my filters in aquarium water I was throwing out, I have no carbon in the tank and all my water tests are coming up excellent, my PH is 7.2, my temp is 80. I also added a Proquatics Bacteria Starter, three tsp for my 29 gallon tank. The reason I added it is I was told because I'm medicating my biological filter could get destroyed. It said on the bottle to add once a week for establishd tanks. Heres my problem. Two of my tetra don't come out of their hiding spots. They were swimming all over when I got them and the last three days I really had to search for them. I'm pretty sure they are all male tetras. My tiniest one swims in place and keeps opening its mouth. My medium size one is way back and also swimming in place and I noticed today its poops are clear and stringy. They seem to be picky eaters as I always offer a wide variety of food. I just purchased some Hikari Daphnia and the healthy one loves it. I thought the others would come out to eat but they did not. On my Rid Ich it says not to use with any other medication. What do I do? My biggest tetra seems to be territorial towards my big male guppy. Could this be my problem also? At first when I got the tetras they seemed to get along. Also my three tetras don't seem to hang around each other like I thought they would. I had two male pineapple swordtails for 2 1/2 months and one died two weeks ago because the biggest bullied him. Right when I thought he was doing well he up and died. I have lots of safe hiding places and also opem swimming.

 

[Terry]

I can't quite understand why you are medicating the tank for your whitespot/ ich and then doing a water change and gravel clean. after putting your medication into the tank you should give it time to work, you should remove the carbon which i know you have. but then you should not do a water change untill the medication has had time to work. by doing a water change every day you are

removing the medication you have just introduced.

 

[Allivymar]

*nods and agrees with Terry*

You do want to do small gravel vacs to remove the ich cysts which are in the substrate, but large water changes remove the medication. When you replace the water. you need to figure out how much you've removed, and add enough the keep the same levels of meds.

Your other guys may never show signs of ich. Ich is opportunistic, and generally infect fish with weakened immune systems, such as newly introduced fish or fish being harassed. If your other guys are pretty healthy, they may be able to fight it off.

Also, keep in mind ich takes a while to kill. It has a 3 stage life cycle, and only one stage is susceptible to the medication (the free swimming stage). When ich is encysted on your fish, the meds can't get to it and kill it. Is why ignoring the recommended time frame on ich meds, and simply treating 3 days or so after seeing the last ich spot on fish is a better way to ensure you've killed all the ich in the tank.

 

[yellowjacket171]

I went to a web site that had a chart that showed a day to day treatment cycle. And each day said to perform a 25% to 50% daily water change to remove the theronts and a gravel vac to remove any tomonts that fall to the bottom. I treat with Rid Ich and Melafix after performing the water change every 24 hours which is what I read to do. I was asking questions about my problem on another questions about convics with ich and was not told to undo anything I was doing. In fact nobody said I was doing anything wrong. Whats the right thing to do? First I do one thing for a whole a week and now I am suppose to do another. Whats right? My orginal question was what to do about my tetras seeing I am medicating with Rid Ich and cannot add any other medicines.

 

[Allivymar]

I go by this site when it comes to ich: http://www.caloriesperhour.com/fish/notes_ich.html

I used the salt/high temp treatment very successfully in my tank; my loaches cleared up in 5 days and none of my other fish ever showed signs.

Down near the bottom it says:
"Should I do a partial water change? Yes, do a water change of 25 to 40% before beginning treatment. The primary reason for this is so that you won't have to do one during the treatment process which could affect medication.

In addition, the water change will remove some of the phase 3 swarmers from the water. And if you vacuum the gravel with a water siphon, it will also remove some of the phase 2 tomants.

If the infestation has become severe and your fish are in danger of dying, you may want to consider doing daily partial water changes to further reduce the number of swarmers and tomants. But consider doing this only if you are using a medicine like Maracide which loses its strength daily so that you are not dependant on the strength of the medicine building up. And be sure to perform the partial water change before medicating for the day."

And I'm not sure where the convicts come into this; you only mention the tetras, ich and the tetras behavior (which is probably due to the infestation). Its possible they have something else, but best to treat one thing at a time in this case, as the ich meds are hard enough on the fish (malchite green is actually a poison; its just figured the fish are stronger then the ich parasites and can take it). Take a gander at the webpage I listed earlier. Its an awesome site full of info.

 

[yellowjacket171]

I went to the web site above and it did offer helpful information. Thanks. What I ment about convicts is that in this forum I went to the question about convics with Ich and was asking my own questions about ich. I don't have convicts in my tank. Anyways my smallest tetra died today and the other two are still alive. I tested my water and found nothing wrong. Guess it was the ich or the medications. My tetras are not covered in spots just a couple each. I guess theres nothing more to do but wait and see after I'm finally done medicating. And I know to keep medicating for at least three days after I no longer see spots on the fish.

 

[Allivymar]

Ahh ok LOL now I get it. Just call me Dory (those of you who saw Finding Nemo will understand LOL)

Sorry to hear about the little guy Hopefully the other 2, especially since they are not so infested, will be able to fight off the ich parasites with the help of the meds.

 

[SoCal]

I am also battling ich in THREE tanks right now, with no success. I have been using RId-ich, doing the recommended daily water changes and I raised the water temp to near 80 and it's not helping. I am also battling swinging ammonia and nitrite levels due to the water changes and that is further stressing the fish. The peacock bass is now coughing and has rapid breathing. What is the salt method? Any other methods I can try? I have really never had to deal with ich before. I guess I'm making up for lost time.

55 gallon has:
3 plecos 3"
8 giant danios 3"
9 misc. danios 1"
3 fancy guppy 1.5"
5 feeder guppies .5"
7 grass shrimp 1"

20 gallon has:
2 fancy guppies 1.5"
6 guppy fry micro
1 CAE 2.5"
6 grass shrimp 1"
6 apple snails 2" diameter .Taken from all other tanks as Rid-ich killed one, guess it doesn't matter now, maybe I'll throw them in a bucket O' water.

10 gallon has:
1 peacock bass 2.5"

Just as a precaution I am treating the feeder tank (15 gal.) as well although that tank shows no signs of infection. All the above tanks are outside on my balcony, is this playing a part in why I can't clear the tanks of ich?
Also is ich specifically a fish parasite or will it attack snails and shrimp as well.

 

[SoCal]

Oh yeah, thank God I'm not paying the water bill LOL.

 

[Allivymar]

Ugh. 3 tanks?? You poor thing.

The high temp/salt treatment worked wonders in my tank, and I never used any chemicals (unless you consider aquarium salt chemicals).

Its 3 fold:

Ich cannot survive temps of about 86f and above. I normally keep my tanks around 82f, so every 12 hrs I upped the temp a degree to 88f. However, I know my fish (angels, loaches and plec) can handle those kind of temps for short periods without any health issues. Keep in mind, if you do that, ich reproduces faster under high temps. Is why I waited only 12 hrs between temp changes and had started the other parts of the treatment at the same time.

The salt part of the treatment requires a salt ppt of about 2-3. Basically, you want the ppt to be at least 2-3 more then what the tank is (mine is usually zero; I don't add salt to my tank normally). You'll need a hydrometer to check the levels; I got a Seatest one for about $12 (it can also be used for SW if you ever decide to go that route with a tank). What the salt does is mess up osmosis; which affects the ich parasite a lot more then the fish. Sucks out the fluids and the parasite dehydrates. Takes about 7.6 grams of salt to reach 2 ppt or about a teaspoon less then 1/4 cup for a 10g tank. You would need to up the salt levels slowly, just as you'd need to up the temps slowly.

I also did regular gravel vacs, removing about 25-30% of the tank water (and made sure to add the correct amount of salt to keep the levels at 3 ppt). This was to remove any cysts in the substrate as well as trying to catch some of the free floating buggers.

It does not work overnight; took about 5 days for me to see results, but once the ich spots were gone they were GONE. This all started about 2 weeks ago; I am just starting to reduce salt levels with regular water changes with no salt added and will begin bringing down temps tomorrow.

This is the section from the above website which discusses salt/temp treatment for ich: http://www.caloriesperhour.com/fish/notes_ich.html#salt
This is the link from WWM where I got my info for treating my guys: http://wetwebfotos.com/talk/thread.jsp?forum=3&thread=11808&tstart=0&trange=15

 

[yellowjacket171]

I lost another tetra. He was hiding in the back because the remaining tetra was picking on him. He was missing part of his tail and had a couple spots of Ich on him. He was floating on his side and gasping so I put him out of his misery by putting him into a bag of ice water got that idea from some forum. I hated to do it but it seemed more humane than snipping his spine or letting him suffer. My remaining tetra looks worse but is still eating, swimmimg around and once in a while chasing the male guppy, and still has ragged looking fins and tail. I'm still adding Melafix also. I went and researched other questions asked at this forum on Ich and am going to slowly raise my temps to 82, its at 80 now. I guess I'm suppose to keep it at this temp for two weeks? I am also increasing my salt and how often do I do partial water changes and how much, I have a 29 gal tank with one swordtail, two platy's. one guppy, four cory's who seem to be doing ok with the salt I already add, decided not to can the salt, and of course the remaining tetra. Do I still use Rid Ich? I guess its what gets rid of the free swimming parasites by what I've read. It seems others who had Ich seemed to get rid of it simply by raising the temps and adding salt. My water tests are coming out good as I monitor them daily with this going on in my tank. I do realise it may be a while before I start seeing results that the Ich is going away. Just getting sick of hearing my husband saying"I should have left things alone and not added more fish." Yeah I probably should have or got a quarentine tank, which I am setting up for next time. He just dosen't have the love of fish like I do.

 

[SoCal]

Allivymar,

Thanks sooo much. My little fish world is coming crashing down all around me. My 10 gallon was so infested I swear I could see the ich swimming around in mid water, so I restarted that tank this morning (- gravel and pots). I added a large cotton ball(size of a baseball) with nitromax to the tank.

I lowered the 20 gallon to 10 and I am thinking of setting up 2 more 10s and draining the 55 completely.

What brand salt do you use? Did you follow the dosage of 2.5 TSPs per gallon?

 

[Allivymar]

I did the salt/high temp tx instead of meds (I actually DO have Rid Ich+ in the house) to avoid killing my bacterial colonies. I initially wasn't sure if it was working, and almost started dosing with meds; glad I gave it another day cause it made all the diff in the world. My current parameters after the first water change without salt are 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 5 ppm nitrates.

I used Dr Wellfish's aquarium salt. However, you can use any salt as long as there are NO additives (like pure rock salt is ok). I'm just too lazy to go reading boxes to see whats in em LOL and I knew the aquarium salt would be fine.

I went with about 7.6 grams of salt per gallon, or a teaspoon less then 1/4 cup per 10 gallons. Its not an exact science, so I made sure I bought a hydrometer to check the salt ppt levels. Kept it at 3 ppt for almost 2 weeks. Also, the salt treatment is NOT recommended for corys; apparently they do not handle high salt levels well. I have angelfish, clown loaches and a plec; higher salt levels for short periods of time are tolerated by those species.

I did almost daily water changes/gravel vacs to remove free floating (theront phase) ich as well as removing the ich (tomont phase) lurking in the gravel. In my case I figured I changed about 30% of the 55g tank water (~18 gallons) each time and added a little over 3/8 of a cup of salt (I also made sure I diluted it in water) to the change water to keep it at 3 ppt.

Water changes when using meds tho can be tough; one needs to figure out how much meds have been removed by the change and re-add accordingly to keep the proper levels.

You're absolutely right Yellowjacket; the meds kill the free floating stage of ich. The other 2 stages (the one on the fish and the one lurking in the substrate) are encysted; the meds can't get to it then. The thought behind higher temps that are below the temps needed to actually kill ich, is to have the cycle go quicker so more of em are susceptible to the poison. Do keep in mind tho, this means the fish will be getting infested more quickly until the meds destroy enough ich parasites...it can be stressful for em.

Thumbs up for planning on a QT for next time; I never add fish without keepin em in QT for 2 weeks. As you discovered, one never knows what they'll bring in with them. Even then, things can be subclinical and not show up until a fish is stressed; my loaches are a prime example. They were QT for 3 weeks, and have been with me since May. Never showed signs of ich. Moved everyone to a larger 55g a few weeks ago and boom. The move stressed em enough that ich reared its ugly head. Strangely, they were the only ones affected despite having 5 angels and a plec as tankmates.

One last suggestion if you have to go the med route (which I think you need to continue yellowjacket due to the corys). If you can, pick up some Bio-Spira. Its the correct nitrifying bacteria in a bag. Only stuff that is. This way, if the meds kill off your bacterial colony, you have something which will help restart it quickly (obviously do not add it until your finished with the meds). Its not actually meant to play catch up with high ammonia levels, rather to work along with rising levels, but its better then cycling from scratch and should help.

 

[SoCal]

Allivymar,

Thanks again.
I'll let you know how the battle goes. I'ts not fun watching my fish suffer knowing there is nothing more I can do for them.

 

[Allivymar]

I hear ya SoCal. I had a terrible case of guilt when my poor loaches broke out. There I was trying to make things better for them and instead they got ill. I have to admit I was ready for it tho; I know clowns are susceptible to ich and did all sorts of research prior. When they moved into the new tank, and the plec invaded their loach motel (keeping them from their fav hiding space and stressing them greatly) LOL I knew I was in for trouble.

Btw and completely off topic. The cheat! LOL I keep meaning to mention I love your avatar *grin* I often hear "Come back Ali! Come back Ali's sister" in chat rooms *grin*

 

[yellowjacket171]

Thankyou Allivymar for all the helpful information. Do you think I could still keep the 1 tsp of salt per gallon seeing I've been doing it since before my cory's arrived in my tank two months ago. They are very active and seem to be doing well. I'll continue the meds and I bought Proquatics Bacteria Starter seing you told me meds could be harmful to my bacterial filter. I'm also going to check out Bio-Spira. I'll let you know how everything goes just don't want to loose any more fish especially the ones who have been in my tank since the beginning. Thankyou

 

[Allivymar]

No prob yellowjacket

If they've been doing fine with that level of salt, I can't see a need to change. The info I've gotten has all been personal experience NOT scientifically confirmed. Still, its something to consider. I'd keep a close eye on your guys just to be safe.

I have no experience with Proquatics Bacteria Starter; I don't know if it will be as successful as Bio-Spira. I do know Bio-Spira is the only culture on the commercial market which has the correct bacteria. In any case, keep checking your ammonia/nitrite levels to be sure they don't spike.

Oh and to the hubby LOL this is YOUR hobby not his. If he wants to give directions, he can start his own tank

 

[x_tra]

Allivymar is right ...but be very careful when you increase temp. you dont wanna cook ur fish..and it really depends on how much salt is in your aquarium if you all ready had a lot in there and it is not helping meds might be needed and also check the levels on EVERYTHING. hope it helps

 

[SoCal]

Got the salt, added a little. how slowly should I increase it. I put 1tsp in the 10 gal. is that too much to fast? Water temp is up to 82 if I go any higher it will kill my peacock bass.

Off topic.
I was introduced to homestarrunner.com like 6 months ago and I am totaly addicted to that site. I love sites that have lots of hidden stuff, and the characters are sooo funny. Someone else has homestar as their avatar and when I saw that I remebered I didn't have to pick from the list provided sooo The Cheat has to be displayed. My cats name is cheeto (cuz he's orange) and I started calling him "the Cheat".

 

[Alivymar]

Heh homestarrunner is just awesome.

As for the salt and temp increases:

I started off with 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons (so 11 tablespoons for my 55g tank). I dissolved it in a gallon of warmish water. I knew that wouldn't be enough, but figured it was a safe place to start. I then went out and got the Seatest hydrometer and added salt at 7.6 grams per gallon (which should equal around 3 ppt of salt per gallon; thing is, sodium chloride levels vary despite it all being "salt", so having the hydrometer means I could be absolutely sure of the sodium levels). The next day I upped the levels further, and by the third day I was at 3 ppt.

I don't know what the temp ranges are for peacock bass. I *think* higher ends are around 80-82f just as you've mentioned, but they MAY be able to handle higher temps for short periods of time. You might want to throw a post into one of the cichlid specific forums to see if anyone has any idea or experiences with high temps. I know of folks who treated angelfish for ich at much higher temps then I used (High end for angels is around 86; I kept temps at 88-89, and know of others who used temps close to 94-95 without negative effects...I'm just not that comfortable with temps THAT high LOL). Because I didn't want to subject my guys to too many ich parasites, I tried to get the temps up to ich killing levels as quick as possible without overstressing the fish. So it was 1 degree every 12 hours.

So over all, figure my tank was in full treatment swing by day 3.

Another thing to be aware of. Higher water temps means less O2 in the water. Keep an eye on your guys; I know you aerate your water so it may not be an issues but better to be aware.