White Spot/bump Above Eye of White Cloud Mountain Minnow

[Kaidonni]

I don't know if it's a cyst, or a growth of another sort, or even tissue/the angle of the scales where the original cyst grew. It almost looks like it's gone again, unlike in the video I put on Youtube. The other morning when the light was off, it looked like it had returned. I don't reckon I could go through 3x50% changes again, clearly I'm going to need to take another approach as it's a losing battle. The other Minnows so far don't show any similar symptoms *touch wood* I won't assume it's the cyst that returned, light can play tricks, but still...there's definitely something there, similar to the colour of her body, greyish-reddish. Possibly the damaged or healing tissue...

I also don't know if I'm noticing anything on her caudal fin. Possibly a tiny white dot. I don't know if it's large enough to be Ich or anything, I'll keep an eye on that for sure.

Another female Minnow was doing quite a frantic bit of flashing just now, I'll definitely observe her. I've had fish flash before and nothing come of it, but given the circumstances, I'll keep an eye out for repeat behaviour. I don't want to jump at everything, but I don't want to discount anything either.

 

[Kaidonni]

I'm carrying out emergency action as this evening, it appears whatever I could see on the female Minnow's right flank has eruped into an open sore. At one point, it looked like a small bit of tissue or pus or something came from the sore (looked like - it could have been something in the water she swam past, but not taking that chance). A 50% water change, thorough gravel vac, followed by dosing up to 2g/litre aquarium salt (to be upped to 3g/litre in the morning if necessary). I'll then conduct another 50% Sunday morning, and top the aquarium salt up. I can't use the Esha at this stage as I contacted the manufacturer, and they advised that even dechlorinators such as Prime can affect the medicine.

I've attached the video of the female Minnow. While she is active to an extent, she was hiding in some plants when I got home from work. She was also quite dozy when I fed the fish some flake food, and while she did eat a little, she spat some back out after taking it up and spitting it out a few times.

 

[Kaidonni]

Slight change of plan, as 9pm at night is not really the time to be mucking about too much in case something goes wrong. I'm opting for 1g/l tonight, then upping it to the 2g/l in the morning after ~12 hours, and finally up to 3g/l tomorrow evening. Dosing more gradually should avoid stressing the Minnows as I've never used aquarium salt before, and even 1/l looks like a lot to add all at once.

Measured it out on digital scales, and also took 2g off for the kitchen towel the salt was measured out on.

I did dissolve it in a litre of tank water first, and poured it in gradually, and as necessary added a little more water to the jug and waited for more of the salt to dissolve.

 

[Kaidonni]

I'll be upping it to 2g/l this morning. I'm not sure if I should conduct the next 50% this evening, ~24 hours after the first one, or if I can wait until tomorrow, around 11am-12pm, ~38 hours after the first one (as that's when my normal weekly clean is scheduled, along with a quick filter clean). In any case, this evening the aquarium salt levels go up to 3g/l.

Alternatively, I could conduct another 50% change this evening, replace the salt removed during the change, and do a 4-5 litre change tomorrow just to give the filter a quick clean, and up to 3g/l tomorrow. Or I could still up to 3g/l this evening.

EDIT: A small piece of kitchen towel - probably from last night when I dried out the water jug - snuck into the tank with the aquarium salt. I could have taken it out of the jug while I was dissolving the salt, but I didn't. It shouldn't hurt the fish, and I do worry over the smallest things.

 

[Kaidonni]

I conducted the 50% clean last night as planned. Today I was only going to do about 5-10 litres and a filter clean, but I endeavoured to push on to 50% again as the white spot I referenced on the female Minnow's caudal fin is still there, and there is also a second one on her caudal fin; unsure about her other fins, but definitely keeping an eye out. I'm suspicious that I'm about to experience an outbreak of Ich, and I've upped the aquarium salt to 3g/l or thereabouts - it might be a bit above due to the scales not being exact, nor the volume measurement of my tank minus filter, plants, heating apparatus, algae magnet and airstone. She's still hanging at the surface when the light is off, and the eruption looks like it's healing over or becoming a cyst again.

If this is Ich, then - if I'm not mistaken - it must have arrived via an external route; it can't just exist in the tank and not do anything. There have been no new introductions in over a year and a half, excepting plants and - most recently - snails (of which I'm now keeping an eye out and eliminating when I get the chance). Could it have started in the gills of the female Minnow, causing her to hang at the surface? No idea where the appearance of the eruption/cyst on her right flank, just behind her right gills, factors into this - is it something else, i.e. bacterial, or is it also likely Ich?

As per the white spots on her caudal fin, could it be any other parasite, or a certain bacterial infection? It's not fungal, and I've seen fin rot on a Clown Loach, so I don't believe it's fin rot.

In any case, I have both Esha 2000 and Esha Anti-White Spot and Velvet handy (got the latter many months ago 'just in case'...might have been a wise decision). I've never, ever, had Ich before *touch wood*... I'll have to wait at least 24 hours before dosing as the Prime might interact with them. The manufacturer has warned against using Prime with Esha 2000 in an email, so I can only assume the same problen applies to the Esha Anti-White Spot - waiting 24 hours should ensure the reductive potential of the Prime has been mostly exhausted, if not completely (hopefully completely!).

I hope it's safe to run the Esha Anti-White Spot alongside the aquarium salt treatment. As to the temperature treatment, I could turn the heater on and the temperature up, but as these are White Cloud Mountain Minnows and their maximum recommended temperature is usually 22C, I'm not entirely sure if the temperature treatment would be the best approach or do the Minnows much good.

EDIT: The two white spots do appear to be visible from either side on the caudal fin - unless there are spots either side and the female Minnow is moving too much for me to get a good look and notice that - so I don't quite know what to make of that. Could potentially be fin rot, or still Ich.

EDIT 2: The female Minnow now appears to be hanging at the surface even while the tank light is on.

 

[TMRC Exotics]

I've just recently been doing some reading on ich. Many believe the parasite is present at all times in almost all aquariums and it only appears in vast quantities when a fishs immune system is weak enough. In accordance with this belief, the ich had been present on the body of a fish at your time of purchase and rode into your aquarium, the parasite can temporarily latch onto fish but with a sufficient slime coat the parasite can't nourish itself to its bloated cyst state where it erupts from the body in a large cottony fashion, however it still can carry out the process at a size not visible to the naked eye continuing its existence until a fish is weak enough that it can fully grow and prosper.

I have no evidence to support this, its only a theory I have found while researching.

 

[Kaidonni]

Thanks - I did a quick bit of research last week, and it came up in a post on the Practical Fishkeeping forums. It can definitely hide in fish, and then infect other fish and take people completely by surprise when they've followed quarantine procedure and carefully observed the newcomers before introducing them to the main aquarium.

It does seem odd that this is happening now, what with the fact I had the Clown Loaches in far less than optimal conditions and never got so much as a whiff of Ich. Only one survived of the three, but the first died from a wasting disease (possibly parasites), the second from weakened immune system from all the fighting that ensued (was scared to rehome in case of fish Tb, as that can cause wasting), but that second Clown Loach never got Ich either. The third one - who was rehomed in February - was still in far less than optimal conditions, with a slight nitrite reading on water tests (faint, but it was there), but he was fine and moved to his new tank fine *touch wood!*. I would have thought Ich would have struck before now. I had been carrying out two 25% changes per week from last March, when the second Clown Loach died (can't remember about before), and the tank had less volume in it. I would have expected it to happen before now...

Added to my previous post the following edit rather late: The female Minnow now appears to be hanging at the surface even while the tank light is on. Possibly heavy gilling. Possibly heavy gilling is evident when the female Minnow is hanging at the surface, and at other times too.

 

[Kaidonni]

Just one more observation - the female Minnow has curved her spine upwards and downwards at times. At one point yesterday, she was lying on the top of a Canadensis plant while the other Minnows were schooling by her, and she was at an angle and curving her spine (can't quite remember if upwards or downwards specifically).

 

[Kaidonni]

Well, the Prime should be worn out by now. Either today or tomorrow is the optimum time for the Esha Anti-White Spot, just hoping the vet gets back soon on the Ich observation. Do I start right away, or time it for the free-swimming stage? I can use both 2000 and Anti-White Spot together if need be, but I won't conduct a water change right before; I don't think I can get the water any cleaner now, with 6x50% cleans. Unless I run tap water over activated carbon, but does that remove heavy metals (if I temperature match, that means some water from the hot water tank)?

A shame about the Prime - I have researched it, and people online have posted responses from the Esha manufacturer that it was okay, I've had replies here and on other forums that it would be okay, only for the reply to my query to state that it wasn't. It was for Esha 2000, but I can only assume the same would apply to the Anti-White Spot. They can't make up their minds...

In any case, the salt should assist in the first instance if anything happens in the next 24 hours. Then the medicine can take care of the rest. Temperature...wise or not? These are cold water fish, so I don't want to eradicate the Ich with temperature only to cause other problems with it. I'd consider treating other fish with it, but coldwater fish might not take to it as well. Also, worth covering the tank with a towel and disabling the tank light timer to plunge the tank into darkness? Or am I just confusing myself with too many different approaches?

 

[Kaidonni]

I'm opting for Esha 2000 first thing in the morning as I had some concern that the aquarium salt might interact with the Esha 2000 and harm the fish. I've emailed the manufacturer of the Esha to query this, but have had no reply back. Is it safe to dose Esha 2000 alongside the 3g/litre (or just above by a fraction) of aquarium salt?

I'll hold off on the Exit as the salt can help against potential Ich, but I want to see if it is bacterial in its entirety, or if that's the primary infection (re the cyst being the first symptom rather than the white spots). I'll also be doing it first thing in the morning because if something goes wrong, it can go wrong in the daytime and not in the middle of the night...at least that's the theory. I'm out of any other options now, this is it. Hope I'm right. I'd conduct a 50% change to lower the salt, but I only fear I'll have to wait longer due to the Prime (based on what the Esha manufacturer informed me).

Then, 50% change on Saturday and Sunday as necessary, but also based on observations. If I need to go right to the Exit treatment, I'll drop the salt levels and combine with further Esha 2000.

EDIT: Okay, I'm dropping the salt levels by 50% just to be safe. I don't believe I'm seeing Ich on this female Minnow, it's limited to her caudal fin with white spots of varying size dotted about on it. I'd expect to see it on other fins and her body at the least. Quite possibly Columnaris/fin rot. I'll then treat in the morning, 12 hours after the clean. I know that I cannot - and now I will not - delay any further than I already have (multiple 50% cleans to deal with potential parasites and pathogens...might have helped the other fish, but not this one). It is time...

 

[Kaidonni]

Day three of the combined Esha 2000 and Exit treatment. I'd like to say things are improving, the female Minnow isn't at the surface as much as she was by the looks of it - at least not when the light is on (she'd started hanging at the surface up the back of the tank). The male Minnow's white whatever-it-is hasn't gone anywhere, so either it's too late, or it is a tumour and in that case, cannot be treated. I'll continue to day 4 and 5 of the treatment as it can be extended. Yesterday I'd noticed some of the white dots on the female Minnow's caudal fin had gone, I'm not quite ready to chalk it down to Ich (although, apparently, Exit can target Ich even when it's in the cyst-stage, not just free-swimming).

 

[TMRC Exotics]

Did this get resolved kaidonni? Just checking up on it.

 

[Kaidonni]

Sadly, I had to euthanise the female Minnow with the eruption. She did appear to respond at first, but then I wasn't anywhere near completely satisfied the morning prior to the day I went away. I had actually resumed to using the heater, so I'm unsure if that had anything to do with it (no temperature fluctuations of 21-24C, just a steady 24/25C), but there were still whitish dots on her caudal fin (they had reduced after the initial treamtent, but had not completely gone away). I just couldn't risk it, I probably waited too long (in future I'm going to sort out issues by first trying to find a specific diagnosis if possible, then if that isn't possible, taking an educated shot in the dark based on whether it appears bacterial - external or internal - fungal or parasitic in nature).

As for the white dot...it's still there. I started a thread over in Practical Fishkeeping last weekend, quoting my posts below:-

A few days ago, around Thursday/Friday, I noticed my old (?) male White Cloud Mountain Minnow started doing some headstanding (he's about 2 3/4 years old). So far he's only been doing it while the tank light is off in the morning; I haven't yet noticed him doing it after the tank light goes off in the evening at 9pm. I've conducted a 50% clean today and fed some mushed up de-frosted pea (I don't blanch, and the peas weren't quite completely defrosted...I mushed them up quite a bit to make sure they were okay). I normally feed flake food every other day, and try to feed pea once a week (I fed a small amount of flake yesterday after fasting on Friday - having previously fed on Wednesday - and fed the pea today, and normally I don't bother fasting as I feed every other day anyway). It remains to be seen if those make any difference, but in the meantime I thought I'd ask what it might be? An injury? Possibly internal bacteria?

He doesn't appear bloated, and his appetite is fine. At one stage during my 50% clean, he was actually lying on the gravel, but he soon snapped out of that and hasn't done it since. He does have a greyish/whitish growth (basically a spot) above his right eye that is decidedly not mouthrot or columnaris or viral lymphcystis or any one of plenty of other fungal, bacterial or parasitic organisms that have popped up in my searches online; it's been there for upwards of 2 months, and based on previous advice I believe it's likely to be a tumour (so it might be it's finally starting to affect him after all this time). The only thing that's new is that on the side of the growth towards the middle of his head, there's a black lining.

When I treated another White Cloud Mountain Minnow for a clear bacterial/fungal infection last month, the extended course of Esha 2000 - plus a second [rushed due to time constraints] course of Esha 2000 - had no effect (and very little for the other Minnow, whom I sadly had to euthanise). Whether that's because of my regular use of Prime or not is debatable - the Esha 2000 manufacturers advised me that, with my regular use of Prime, it could reduce the efficacy of their medicines.

Tank parameters:-
Ammonia 0ppm (or near enough from what I can tell with the way Nutrafin and API tests work)
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate ~30-35ppm
pH 7.4-7.6 (Nutrafin test difficult to read)
Total Dissolved Solids 301-305ppm
Temperature ~24C

Now, I realise the temperature is higher than White Cloud Mountain Minnows are meant to be in, but without the heater turned on it swings between 21C and 24C due to the effects of the tank lighting. I have actually left the heater plugged in for a good few weeks now because of previous health issues and my concerns the daily temperature swings were partly responsible (with the 'heatwave' we had, it actually went up to 26-27C, and even with the light left off, the latch open and a fan on the tank, it made very little difference). It's been holding around 24C since the temperatures came down. I've tried different temperature settings all the way to the lowest it allows (~18C-19C), but today I decided to unplug it once more.

Just three White Cloud Mountain Minnows at the moment, two male and one female (what with the problems I had over a month ago, I've been taking it easy and am yet to decide if I plan to keep any more fish or not...it certainly wouldn't be more White Cloud Mountain Minnows). There is quite a bit of aggressiveness off the younger male at the moment...

As a side note, all of the tests - except for Total Dissolved Solids - were conducted *before* my routine 50% clean today. The ammonia, nitrite and pH tests were conducted yesterday, the nitrate tests today - I conducted one nitrate test from a sample I took right before the clean, and a second nitrate test from a sample after the clean because I thought I mucked the original up, and they were both quite similar.

EDIT: Almost forgot in all my rambling...

The male Minnow in question has been rather skittish when the light has been off (at least in the morning), both with the aggressive male and when I've come close to the tank (including when I talk to the fish...yeah, I'm one of the people who speaks to his fish, perhaps a bit too loudly sometimes). He managed to get himself lodged in the canadensis up the one corner a good number of times, and on Friday I had to use a pipette to sway it about so he could swim out (I've since rid the tank of canadensis...they weren't working out, the sheddings are very annoying).

Thank you for the replies so far. I'm surprised the old Minnow has lasted this long with the strange growth, but he keeps trundling on. He's even always had a habit of clamping his fins, and he's always so thin and flat-bellied (until I feed him, then he digs right in), but he keeps going. He did appear a little disinterested in the food last night - he did eat some, but spat at least one flake out - but he gobbled the pea up today. Took another look at the growth, and I've just noticed it's slightly pinkish from the one angle...doesn't change much about what it is, though, what with the length of time it's been around.

As I started the thread last weekend, the Thursday on which I noticed the behaviour would be 9th July, not the 16th.

A bit more recent (i.e. a post I made today):-

Another observation - the old Minnow who has been doing headstanding appears to be shaking his body and his fins at least some of the time while he does his headstanding, as if he's shivering or vibrating. He's also done it when upright - he was hanging near the surface in the top corner this morning (but not gasping for air or anything like that, just close to the surface), clamping his fins, arching his back downwards (which I've noticed he and the female do from time to time) and doing this 'shivering' of his body and fins; he proceeded to do some headstanding shortly afterwards. I did end up spooking him and he bumped into the thermometer, but not too worried about that.

Unfortunately, the temperature seems to be holding at 24C at the moment, so the ambient room temperature (it doesn't feel like 24C) must be slowing down the radiation of heat from the tank. Heater is unplugged, so no more to do about that (and this is when the light is off). Still, he is active and eating, and behaving as normally as I can see the rest of the time (except he doesn't seem to want to spar with the younger male much, he ends up being chased off quite a bit by the younger male, terrified).

 

[TMRC Exotics]

Well I hate to hear it. At times euthanasia is the only route to avoid spreading. A qt tank may be worth setting up. Atleast that part is resolved, glad to hear your moving forward and hopefully the old male pulls through. Keep us posted, I like to keep up with everyone as much as possible.

 

[Kaidonni]

Thank you for that.