White Spot/bump Above Eye of White Cloud Mountain Minnow

[Kaidonni]

Thank you to both of you for the replies.

I eliminated the snails I could today, it felt rather cruel but I can't take the risk. I also opted to conduct the ~50% change (25 litres, but as the tank isn't quite 50 litres due to the filter, heater, airstone and plants, I'd say it may have been 52-54%). I normally do 30-40%, but this should hopefully help out on the nitrates issue to some extent, and what the male Minnow needs is a clean environment. The one female looked a little paler tonight, and it only took me 10-15 minutes to add the new water (partly temperature matched - the first 10 litres and last 5 litres were as warm if not slightly warmer than the water I removed, the middle 10 litres was cooler). I don't think they have temperature shock, though - highly active, although I could be stressing them and causing further problems doing it so fast. I don't pH match, but if they had pH shock, I'd probably know about it. I do have some Minnow fry - so I am concerned about how my approaches to changing large amounts of water affect them, as they are likely to be far more sensitive to fluctuations - but if I don't make sure the adults are well, they won't have much luck.

 

[coralbandit]

As long as you stay regular with water changes (weekly) the pH and other parameters should all be very close.
I would let the water be cooler rather then warmer for the minnow during changes.
My used to go pale and color up for "fish reasons".They bred and I kept them for over 2 years before messing up their water.
The fry will appreciate the clean water don't worry.

 

[TMRC Exotics]

I'm always glad to help. Or at least listen. Keep us updated if possible. Feel encouraged to start up a thread about your tank!

 

[Kaidonni]

I noticed one of the female Minnows right at the surface now and then last night and this morning (not all of the time, but she was going up to sip and staying there like that for at least a little while). It seems the temperature is higher than usual (24C), and I did notice this evening the other Minnows popping for a quick sip (but not staying right at the surface for a while like the other Minnow). Hopefully there's nothing much to that, but I shall keep observing - and it may turn out that it's only the one Minnow who has any real trouble with taking in oxygen, while the others are just doing it while the temperature is raised, or just because.

I can't do much about the temperature since I don't even have the heater plugged in...

I've attached a photo posted on another forum by a user who thinks my Minnow has mouthrot. I can't say I see the resemblance between the condition of the Minnow in the photo and mine. Anyone else have an opinion on the similarity?

 

[Delapool]

I've had cotton mouth/etc vary between white tuffs on mouth or white, well defined pimples on mouth (advanced infection) or patches of colour loss/curved spines or lesions around base of fins. This was all on differant fish within the same school so pretty varied in symptoms. It was the slow version of the infection so fish survived for months.

if that was on the mouth I'd bet on cotton mouth. But it's not so stuck, even looking on desktop at work.

The photo's get blurred close up of white spot.

Is the white spot round or irregular shape?
Is it red around the base of white spot?
Does it look like the flesh around the spot is being eaten away or disolving? This is what i saw for cotton mouth in advanced cases.
Does the white spot look part of the fish like a growth or tumor (or wart)?
Is it like a blister with clear liquid inside it?
At the centre of the spot is there any mark? Any flashing on it.

 

[Kaidonni]

I've had cotton mouth/etc vary between white tuffs on mouth or white, well defined pimples on mouth (advanced infection) or patches of colour loss/curved spines or lesions around base of fins. This was all on differant fish within the same school so pretty varied in symptoms. It was the slow version of the infection so fish survived for months.

if that was on the mouth I'd bet on cotton mouth. But it's not so stuck, even looking on desktop at work.

The photo's get blurred close up of white spot.

Is the white spot round or irregular shape?
Is it red around the base of white spot?
Does it look like the flesh around the spot is being eaten away or disolving? This is what i saw for cotton mouth in advanced cases.
Does the white spot look part of the fish like a growth or tumor (or wart)?
Is it like a blister with clear liquid inside it?
At the centre of the spot is there any mark? Any flashing on it.

I'd have to take a closer look when the light is next on, but I'll answer as best I can:
- Shape - roundish, it's that small
- I didn't notice any redness around the base
- I don't think it looks like the flesh is being eaten away. One of my first thoughts was hexamita/hole in the head.
- No idea if it's part of the fish or not, I don't want to guess.
- I don't think it's a blister, but I could be wrong.
- I don't think there's any mark in the centre, and there's no flashing on it. The male Minnow has swam into plants now and then, but I don't believe it's any sort of flashing.

As to curved spines...this male Minnow and an older female Minnow do curve their spines from time to time. Their spines aren't curved all of the time, they just clamp their fins and curve their spines downwards at times. This female Minnow is not the one who has been at the top of the tank, though.

As to the other female Minnow who has been at the top of the tank...yeah, taking photos or video might not really work this time round. It's hard enough for me to see it...

I had a look this evening while the light was on, and noticed that, just behind her right gills, there was a bump/lump. It isn't like what the male Minnow has, no discolouration, it doesn't look external. She spent quite a bit of time at the top this morning while the light was off, but I didn't notice her doing that while the light was on when I checked her this evening (she was hiding amongst the plants). She was active yesterday evening when I fed the fish, and schooling with them - but the light was on. I thought she might have bloating, but she isn't pineconing; and if there is any bloating, it'd be downwards rather than outwards (possibly constipation or something else, but that doesn't quite explain the lump).

 

[Kaidonni]

That lump/bump on the female Minnow developed into a raised area headed with a white spot this morning, but by the time I got home from work, it had disappeared/burst. This didn't leave any unsightly wound, but there is a wisp of white stuff around where the spot was, possibly cottony, probably all that remains of the growth (it wasn't a fungus or cottony in the sense of Columnaris, I'm just using that word because it fits in this instance - it'd be some of whatever the white spot was). She's still spending a lot of time at the surface when the light goes off. I didn't feed tonight, I'm fasting them and feeding some pea tomorrow. Water change as usual on Sunday.

As to the male Minnow with the white spot, I took a closer look...

- Again, roundish, possibly oval.
- Very hard to tell, but it doesn't look like there's red around the base of the spot.
- It still doesn't look like the flesh is being eaten away. Yet.
- It doesn't look part of the fish, at least not as far as I can tell.
- Don't think it's a blister, but if it is, I can't tell.
- I don't think there's any mark in the centre of the spot.

 

[coralbandit]

Change water NOW!
With the eruption you can now remove "whatever" in the water column that was previously in fish.
I would do 50% while vacuuming the sub for next 3 days straight.
Possibly the time to add a med as many parasites are only killable while free swimming which in most cases is 3-7 days from eruption.
Hind sight is 20/20( don't waste time).

 

[Kaidonni]

Without knowing precisely what this is, I am not dosing with any medicine. I've made that mistake before. It happened sometime during the day - I have work all day in the week, and I have other things that take up my time in the evening (this was not a good week for this to all happen). By this point it is too late anyway for the water change to remove anything, if it's affected the other fish it's affected them. I need to focus on finding out what it is, and I've been discussing this with a tropical fish specialist from a local veterinary practice.

It's also 11:20pm at night...

 

[coralbandit]

It is 6 pm here!
You in Africa?
Try to change water tomorrow for next 3 days.
Almost any parasite treatment will go with this.
skip the meds ,but don't just ignore what you see.
Does your tank get cloudy often?

 

[Delapool]

It doesn't like columnaris then which is good news.

Be interested in what the vet says.

 

[Kaidonni]

I'm in the UK.

I'm not ignoring what I see at all, I'm just not assuming that these are parasites - I've done that before and caused problems for the fish. I did it back in December and treated with Levamisole Hydrochloride, and it looked like I almost induced hypoxia in the Minnows. I got into a panic state when I really didn't need to be dealing with that (caught the flu, so it was smack in the middle of a lull), and in the end it was all for nothing and the fish were fine.

I'm also not entirely satisfied with how 50% three days in a row will help deal with potential parasites because if they are in the water, they are in the water. In those three days, there isn't any guarantee that all of the parasites will be removed by these water changes, and there isn't a guarantee any of the fish will be protected from infection by those parasites over those three days or immediately after (if they aren't already infected). I could easily be back to square one at any point if any of the fish were infected during the course of those changes by parasites the changes did not remove, or by parasites they were infected with prior to the changes. They develop a spot and it bursts, and it's back in the water again, and those water changes have been nullified completely (which happened quickly, although the female Minnow was at the surface for at least two days prior to any obvious external physical developments, so if any other Minnow exhibits similar behaviour, it won't take me off-guard and I'll have more of an idea what I'm dealing with). A lot of effort for a not very effective means of removing parasites. I also wouldn't be able to perform such extensive water changes alongside dosing with medicines, as medicines usually need to remain in the water column for a period of time, and I use Prime during water changes, so I would want to avoid interactions with the medicine (a reason why I'm concerned about the use of Esha - it contains copper sulphate, and I don't know what Prime would do to that unless I waited 24-48 hours after a change).

From past personal experience in which I have tied myself in knots, the most prudent course of action is to closely observe to see if the other Minnows develop any symptoms akin to this female, and then choose an appropriate medicine if it does turn out to be parasites. It could have been an injury, or connected to whatever the male Minnow has - his spot still remains as it was from two weeks ago, and he does nip at the females.

Not that such a water change regimen wouldn't be of any good, but it also relies on positively identifying the parasite in time, having the medicine at hand, and dosing with the medicine after those changes in order to be most effective. If it can't be positively identified and I use the wrong medicine, it's all wasted effort. I've also done that before when I have had problems. The vet should get back to me soon, as I've informed him of the new development and it should give him some idea of what it is if it is a parasite.

There are a variety of parasites, so I would greatly appreciate it if anyone could suggest particular parasites that develop in the manner that would explain either the symptoms of the male Minnow or female Minnow, or even both of them, so I could select the appropriate medicine. It isn't Ich or Velvet, that much is obvious. Or is it a bacterial infection that could cause mouthrot in some instances, but that has invaded the gills/area around the gills of the female Minnow and is causing different symptoms?

Finally, to answer the other question - my tank never gets cloudy.

I never mentioned it before, but there have been no new fish additions for a very long time. More than a year and a half. Only plants and those stowaway snails (and I've dealt with most of those snails, only a few now remain - at least one obvious one). The only way for parasites to enter the tank from an external source is through plants and, possibly, those snails (but would that suggest any parasite infection currently in my tank also requires an intermediate host?).

 

[Kaidonni]

It looks like there is still something there where the white spot was, but I have to look close and hard. It's more fleshy-coloured/grey, so it blends in well.

 

[Kaidonni]

One more thing - it looks like the white spot on the male Minnow has either grown or bulged out more. It did look slightly larger, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[TMRC Exotics]

Coralbandit is spot on, you need to be doing large back to back to back water changes. His suggestion of 3 1x daily 50% changes sounds right on to me. There isn't any harm in it and combining it with good gravel vacs would greatly reduce any larval parasites if present. A broad spectrum medication that doesn't harm BB really couldn't hurt IMO either.

 

[Kaidonni]

I'm against broad spectrum medications as I've messed about before with medicines, not knowing what I'm treating, and regretted it. I do not like messing with medicines, and I will not just dose the tank in the hopes it will solve whatever problem I have.

As for the water changes greatly reducing larval parasites, that isn't enough. Greatly reducing them isn't completely eliminating them, and again nobody has suggested any parasite that would make a fish exhibit the symptoms the female Minnow has shown, so it's an assumption that I'm dealing with parasites and not an injury or something else. The 'if present' part is what gets to me - I do not like assumptions. I have panicked myself in the past, I have an obsessive compulsive personality, and I am resolved not to rush into things or to be alarmist. I keep making myself ill when I worry about the fish. It's both for my own health and to avoid making mistakes for the sake of the fish. If I get the medicine wrong - or don't have the medicine at all - those water changes are completely nullified. Maybe they are considered a sensible precaution, and they might put off the inevitable, but at present, that isn't the best thing - in just a few weeks, my hands will be tied and I'll be too busy to do anything with the tank for at least a two week period, and I can't rely on my family members to help resolve the situation. This is a really bad time for anything to be happening, so if I delay it, it could be even worse. If I get the medicine wrong, that's even more messing about; I had that before Christmas, when I was paranoid and suspected a potential nematode infestation with the Clown Loach - prepared the tank for the treatment, only to find the veterinary clinic had sent a drip bottle instead...delayed by a further week, and had to redo the preparatory water changes (they weren't as large as I do now, but you can imagine my frustration). I also can't keep going through 50% water changes multiple times a week, week after week, until I find out what it is - it just isn't a solution.

I have learnt from past experience to treat the fish for what I know they have, and at present, I have no idea what they have. This isn't to say I don't appreciate the input on this thread, but everyone has their own approach to this kind of situation, informed by previous experience. I'm currently consulting with another person who aided me in finding a new home for the Clown Loach, as they have helped to rescue fish and nurse them back to health. I'm considering that rehoming with them into a dedicated quarantine tank for further observation is the best chance these fish have with all I have going on at the moment.

Does anyone have suggestions to the type of parasite that might cause such symptoms as white spots/cysts that erupt shortly after appearing, within ~12 or so hours? Ich and velvet do not fit. If it's a parasite, someone has to have a suggestion - it seems like such an obvious symptom to aid in identifying it. If nobody can suggest a type of parasite to aim for treating, I'm not satisfied with that diagnosis. I have looked it up on the internet, and some of the more common parasites don't appear to spread in the manner of white cysts/spots erupting (except for Ich and Velvet, which this definitely isn't either of).

There has been no flashing, and the white spot/bump came from a raised area/lump, which might suggest a possible injury. But, as she hangs at the surface - while the light is turned off, that is - something has affected her gills, or at least I'm presuming that's why she hangs at the surface. Since the lump was so close to her right gills, that may be contributing to the symptoms. Another potential symptom - distended abdomen. Not bloating outwards, but possibly downwards (distension). Nematode?

Come to think of it, the only route parasites would have to my tank is through plants and the snails that were recently introduced. It looks like one snail remains, I'm eliminating that today with a 50% change as well as the weekly filter clean. However, if the snails had introduced anything, it would make more sense for further fish to have been infected by this point - the snails I eliminated last weekend had been around for at least a week as their only introduction could be from new plants (the original snail had no mate, and cleary wasn't carrying any eggs itself), so if they introduced anything, I'd think there's been sufficient time for it to infect at least one fish. Why not further fish? Why did it take so long for it to infect just one fish? Which snails did this, as I'd also had a pond/bladder snail in my tank for at least a month prior to eliminating him last weekend? The male Minnow clearly doesn't have the same issue as the female Minnow, either (possibly a tumour in this case, then). Would all this make it a parasite that requires an intermediate host?

 

[Delapool]

Grrrr, I wrote a huge reply and the website had an error. This reply will be much shorter.

Below is a link to try on fish diagnostics.

Aquarium tropical fish disease diagnostics. Fish treatment. Sick fish, ill fish, cure fish.

Water changes will cure just by themselves. Don't have link but it has been shown that fish will fight infection better in water with lower levels of organic matter. Your fish would be at risk of secondary bacterial infection.

Metro is the treatment plan I would use. Covers internal bacterial and protozoa infections. Fairly safe to use. No med is completely safe but never seen a problem with this one.

Seachem. Metronidazole

 

[Kaidonni]

Only thing is, Metronidazole is not available through any retailers in the UK, only through vets or from non-UK based third party suppliers on sites such as Amazon, the latter of which poses a significant problem due to customs. I wouldn't go for Metronidazole myself as it will cost a lot from the vet or from a third party depending on whether it's tablet or liquid, and should I need to use a specific medicine at any point, I'd rather keep my options open, especially if cheaper alternatives will do the job. I have the Esha if that is necessary at any stage, and even the anti-white spot/velvet treatment (these usually treat some other things too - as this isn't white spot or velvet - so they might come in handy).

Thanks for the link to the disease diagnostics. I've visited that site before. It's quite extensive, but seriously, I'm finding many of the white spot/cyst diseases and parasites that pop up in searches have other obvious symptoms that aren't there in the female Minnow. Could it have been lymphocystis invading the gills? The cyst did burst rather soon for that, and the male Minnow's spot - if it is lymphocystis - is still there after two or more weeks (depending on when it actually appeared, I only noticed it on the 3rd May).

 

[Delapool]

Only thing is, Metronidazole is not available through any retailers in the UK, only through vets or from non-UK based third party suppliers on sites such as Amazon, the latter of which poses a significant problem due to customs. I wouldn't go for Metronidazole myself as it will cost a lot from the vet or from a third party depending on whether it's tablet or liquid, and should I need to use a specific medicine at any point, I'd rather keep my options open, especially if cheaper alternatives will do the job. I have the Esha if that is necessary at any stage, and even the anti-white spot/velvet treatment (these usually treat some other things too - as this isn't white spot or velvet - so they might come in handy).

Thanks for the link to the disease diagnostics. I've visited that site before. It's quite extensive, but seriously, I'm finding many of the white spot/cyst diseases and parasites that pop up in searches have other obvious symptoms that aren't there in the female Minnow. Could it have been lymphocystis invading the gills? The cyst did burst rather soon for that, and the male Minnow's spot - if it is lymphocystis - is still there after two or more weeks (depending on when it actually appeared, I only noticed it on the 3rd May).

Hi, yes, wish I knew. A bump will show on a fish, it bursts, usually heals and all is good. The lympho usually looks more like a wart or cauliflower but it's quite distinct as a growth out of the fish. With these I really wonder if something triggers it and then we see something else going on as well. Anyways my money is on some sort of parasite but that's only a suggestion. That's just what it reminds me of but its very easy/hard sitting here with the crystal ball.

If it's viral there's nothing much we can do except good food, the usual water changes and make sure the water conditioner detoxifies heavy metals just in case.

Meds I agree can be tricky as most are trying to kill the infection before they kill the fish. And expensive on small fish. I've heard of Esha but not sure what is in it.

So I'm not sure if we are making progress. Fungal is out, hopefully water chemistry (eg heavy metals) is good. Bacterial, parasites and viral left. Shame on the metro - I forgot about UK being like Australia here. Anyways we've ruled some stuff out which I think can be just as important.

Option 1 is the good old water changes and monitor. Quite often works.

Option 2 would be meds but I'd still prefer ones that are not too dangerous as these fish seem to just have a chronic infection.

Sooo salt would be one option. Covers external parasites, internal parasites not so sure on, bacterial maybe not.

Another could be triple sulfa which I assume you can get. Two reasons - one is it will help prevent secondary bacterial infections and is very safe to use. Second is that here it says it treats white spot as well as bacteria. This matches a link I have. How it treats white spot though I would be guessing on but this is the only other med I know of that comes close to metro.

 

[TMRC Exotics]

I'm against broad spectrum medications as I've messed about before with medicines, not knowing what I'm treating, and regretted it. I do not like messing with medicines, and I will not just dose the tank in the hopes it will solve whatever problem I have.

As for the water changes greatly reducing larval parasites, that isn't enough. Greatly reducing them isn't completely eliminating them, and again nobody has suggested any parasite that would make a fish exhibit the symptoms the female Minnow has shown, so it's an assumption that I'm dealing with parasites and not an injury or something else. The 'if present' part is what gets to me - I do not like assumptions. I have panicked myself in the past, I have an obsessive compulsive personality, and I am resolved not to rush into things or to be alarmist. I keep making myself ill when I worry about the fish. It's both for my own health and to avoid making mistakes for the sake of the fish. If I get the medicine wrong - or don't have the medicine at all - those water changes are completely nullified. Maybe they are considered a sensible precaution, and they might put off the inevitable, but at present, that isn't the best thing - in just a few weeks, my hands will be tied and I'll be too busy to do anything with the tank for at least a two week period, and I can't rely on my family members to help resolve the situation. This is a really bad time for anything to be happening, so if I delay it, it could be even worse. If I get the medicine wrong, that's even more messing about; I had that before Christmas, when I was paranoid and suspected a potential nematode infestation with the Clown Loach - prepared the tank for the treatment, only to find the veterinary clinic had sent a drip bottle instead...delayed by a further week, and had to redo the preparatory water changes (they weren't as large as I do now, but you can imagine my frustration). I also can't keep going through 50% water changes multiple times a week, week after week, until I find out what it is - it just isn't a solution.

I have learnt from past experience to treat the fish for what I know they have, and at present, I have no idea what they have. This isn't to say I don't appreciate the input on this thread, but everyone has their own approach to this kind of situation, informed by previous experience. I'm currently consulting with another person who aided me in finding a new home for the Clown Loach, as they have helped to rescue fish and nurse them back to health. I'm considering that rehoming with them into a dedicated quarantine tank for further observation is the best chance these fish have with all I have going on at the moment.

Does anyone have suggestions to the type of parasite that might cause such symptoms as white spots/cysts that erupt shortly after appearing, within ~12 or so hours? Ich and velvet do not fit. If it's a parasite, someone has to have a suggestion - it seems like such an obvious symptom to aid in identifying it. If nobody can suggest a type of parasite to aim for treating, I'm not satisfied with that diagnosis. I have looked it up on the internet, and some of the more common parasites don't appear to spread in the manner of white cysts/spots erupting (except for Ich and Velvet, which this definitely isn't either of).

There has been no flashing, and the white spot/bump came from a raised area/lump, which might suggest a possible injury. But, as she hangs at the surface - while the light is turned off, that is - something has affected her gills, or at least I'm presuming that's why she hangs at the surface. Since the lump was so close to her right gills, that may be contributing to the symptoms. Another potential symptom - distended abdomen. Not bloating outwards, but possibly downwards (distension). Nematode?

Come to think of it, the only route parasites would have to my tank is through plants and the snails that were recently introduced. It looks like one snail remains, I'm eliminating that today with a 50% change as well as the weekly filter clean. However, if the snails had introduced anything, it would make more sense for further fish to have been infected by this point - the snails I eliminated last weekend had been around for at least a week as their only introduction could be from new plants (the original snail had no mate, and cleary wasn't carrying any eggs itself), so if they introduced anything, I'd think there's been sufficient time for it to infect at least one fish. Why not further fish? Why did it take so long for it to infect just one fish? Which snails did this, as I'd also had a pond/bladder snail in my tank for at least a month prior to eliminating him last weekend? The male Minnow clearly doesn't have the same issue as the female Minnow, either (possibly a tumour in this case, then). Would all this make it a parasite that requires an intermediate host?

You're over thinking this. Obviously there is a problem present with fish getting cysts bursting off of them, the quickest hitting thing you can do is water changes. Clean water and removal of whatever parasite or bacteria is present is your only real option aside from medication.

IMO your too focused on identifying it and not focused enough on removal. Best attempt for that is the water changes.

Also don't be so fearful of meds, many can be used safely and have drag nets to target many things. Again, it doesn't matter what specifically is going on if you can just get rid of it.