Yet another Fishless Cycle problem thread

[allaboutfish]

i dont have any hardware stores near me just walmart

 

[eco23]

i dont have any hardware stores near me just walmart

You can find it lots of places. Just check to make sure it doesn't contain anything like surfactants, dyes, perfumes, etc...

 

[allaboutfish]

can i do the shake the bottle and see if it foams thing is that accurate

 

[eco23]

can i do the shake the bottle and see if it foams thing is that accurate

There's a lot more to it than that. Look at my guide in my signature. It explains it all. I'd type it all out again but the wife is yelling at me to come eat dinner, lol.

 

[xawen]

Well, an update of sorts...

Now on day 23. The morning after I added the Stress Zyme, I took another look at the ammo and it definitely looked like it was closer to (but above) 1. I think my earlier reading of a 4 was a bit of a misread. I added a bit more ammo, and brought it up to between 2 and 3. In 23 days, that is the only time I've dosed any additional ammo.

It has been there ever since. I just did a new test:

Ammo: 2-3
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0
pH: 7.8
Temp: 85.5

I have added very small amounts of flake food two or three times to get some phosphates and other stuff in there. The last one was about a week ago.

I can't find a source of seed material anywhere. I'm going to try my luck at the LFS this weekend, but I don't have real high hopes of that working out. I kind of wanted to avoid using a LFS as a source anyway just for tank health reasons, but at this point it can't make things any worse.

I don't have any problem being patient, but I can't help feeling that something HAS to be wrong after 23 days and 0 nitrites. Does anyone have any other tips or suggestions at what I might be doing wrong?

 

[eco23]

Are you sure you added enough stress coat to efficiently dechlorinate the water? If I remember correctly, it takes significantly more of that stuff per gallon to detoxify it as opposed to other products like Prime.

 

[xawen]

Are you sure you added enough stress coat to efficiently dechlorinate the water? If I remember correctly, it takes significantly more of that stuff per gallon to detoxify it as opposed to other products like Prime.

Yeah, there are two doses on the bottle. One for conditioning water and one for treating fish stress. I actually over dosed when I first filled the tank, and double checked the correct amount when I did a small water replacement over the weekend.

I had an idea earlier that maybe the stress coat was locking up the ammonia, but I just looked it up and it doesn't do that...so there's another theory gone

 

[eco23]

Have you read through the guide in my signature line by line to make sure we're not missing something basic? Something is definitely off if it's been this long without a drop in ammo. I would swear the ammonia had surfactants in it if you weren't using the Ace brand.

Don't worry,we'll figure it out.

 

[eco23]

I've been messaging and working with people who have started, completely finished, and stocked their tank with fish in the time since you haven't seen an ammo drop. That's how I know there's something odd with this. And at least 2 of those people didn't have any seeding material.

 

[xawen]

Have you read through the guide in my signature line by line to make sure we're not missing something basic? Something is definitely off if it's been this long without a drop in ammo. I would swear the ammonia had surfactants in it if you weren't using the Ace brand.

Don't worry,we'll figure it out.

Oh yeah, I've been through your guide many many times . The only thing that I'm not doing from the guide is using seed material (heh, and not by choice). That's actually the reason I went to find Ace brand ammonia.

And yeah, I agree on the time. I've seen journal threads by quite a few people who have done an entire seedless cycle in the time I've been nurturing a tank full of ammonia

 

[eco23]

Are you going to have a heavily planted tank? I've got another idea, but it'd only work if you plan on adding a bunch of real plants. If you're planning on doing that, send me a PM and I'll walk you through it. I don't want to go into too much detail on the thread because I'm afraid a newbie might read this and think it's okay to toss in a plant or two and consider it cycled. It's not...there's a lot more too it than that, but I can fill you in on what's called silent cycling.

 

[xawen]

Are you going to have a heavily planted tank? I've got another idea, but it'd only work if you plan on adding a bunch of real plants. If you're planning on doing that, send me a PM and I'll walk you through it. I don't want to go into too much detail on the thread because I'm afraid a newbie might read this and think it's okay to toss in a plant or two and consider it cycled. It's not...there's a lot more too it than that, but I can fill you in on what's called silent cycling.

Not heavily planted. I've got a little over 1 watt of T5HO/gallon, so I don't think I have enough to go big on the plants. I've read a little on silent cycle and I don't think I can support it with my lighting (limited by corner tank shape). I'm going to have to stick to low light, maybe med-low plants.

I am definitely going to have some plants in there once I'm cycled. I thought about trying the potted plant thing as a way to get some seed material from the LFS (w/o actually getting seed material from the LFS ). I've been running without the lights though so that I don't have to fight algae on top of trying to cycle. I could get a few sacrificial potted plants just to get the pots and planting materials...

 

[eco23]

Not heavily planted. I've got a little over 1 watt of T5HO/gallon, so I don't think I have enough to go big on the plants. I've read a little on silent cycle and I don't think I can support it with my lighting (limited by corner tank shape). I'm going to have to stick to low light, maybe med-low plants.

I am definitely going to have some plants in there once I'm cycled. I thought about trying the potted plant thing as a way to get some seed material from the LFS (w/o actually getting seed material from the LFS ). I've been running without the lights though so that I don't have to fight algae on top of trying to cycle. I could get a few sacrificial potted plants just to get the pots and planting materials...

Yeah, it doesn't sound like you're gonna have a suitable situation to try silent cycling. Just a note though...go ahead and throw the plants in now if you want. The water conditions during a cycle are beneficial to the plants and can give them a head start. Plus, it'll give you something to do while you wait for this thing to cycle.

I'm sure you are...but are you %1000000 certain you're testing properly with the API kit? It seems like 90% of the population either doesn't add both solutions, doesn't shake long enough, etc... Also, is it a new kit? Check the expiration date. The API kits don't last terribly long and could be giving you some false readings.

 

[xawen]

Yeah, it doesn't sound like you're gonna have a suitable situation to try silent cycling. Just a note though...go ahead and throw the plants in now if you want. The water conditions during a cycle are beneficial to the plants and can give them a head start. Plus, it'll give you something to do while you wait for this thing to cycle.

I'm sure you are...but are you %1000000 certain you're testing properly with the API kit? It seems like 90% of the population either doesn't add both solutions, doesn't shake long enough, etc... Also, is it a new kit? Check the expiration date. The API kits don't last terribly long and could be giving you some false readings.

Lol, I may try adding some inexpensive plants over the weekend. That way I won't feel bad if I have to shut the lights down if I end up heading for green water. At least then I can tell the wife I have something alive in the tank If the plants consume ammo and nitrite, will that make it harder to keep track of the levels while I'm trying to cycle?

The API kit is new, and I have double checked the instructions a few times. The nitrate test is a little bit of a pain, but I stand there shaking that neon yellow tube every time just hoping for a change.

 

[eco23]

Lol, I may try adding some inexpensive plants over the weekend. That way I won't feel bad if I have to shut the lights down if I end up heading for green water. At least then I can tell the wife I have something alive in the tank If the plants consume ammo and nitrite, will that make it harder to keep track of the levels while I'm trying to cycle?

The API kit is new, and I have double checked the instructions a few times. The nitrate test is a little bit of a pain, but I stand there shaking that neon yellow tube every time just hoping for a change.

A few plants will have a minor impact on a cycle if any at all. In order to do a silent cycle, you should have about 50% of the substrate covered in plants...so it takes a lot.

Yeah, the API kit can be a pain...but it's the most accurate. I learned the hard way that you've got to put a towel over it when shaking, because I got to scrub blue and yellow splashes off my wall, lol.

 

[xawen]

Day 27, still no significant change.

I did a 50% water change yesterday (just to refresh the water). Added ammo to get the level back up to 4ppm after the change. I did notice during the water change that I have a nice diatom bloom going on. I had noticed it in a few spots, but when the water got stirred up I realized it's on a lot more of the tank surfaces than I thought. At last it proves that my tank can support some kind of life

Went to the lfs yesterday too. They had a few potted plants, but most of them were in a completely separate plant section with separate filtration. I tracked down one of the guys that worked there to see if they had any in the fish populated tanks (or if I could get some kind of used filter media). This is where things went downhill...I guess predictably.

I gave the guy some background on what I was trying to do. Knew I was in trouble when he started looking at me like I had six heads. I finished and got the "you've been reading on the Internet huh" line. He told me that it was pretty much pointless to have a tank with no fish in it and I was just adding ammonia to a sterile environment and nothing would happen that way. His recommendation: add a bottle of Nutrafin Cycle and add all the fish I want.

So...while I'm waiting for an opportunity to go to another lfs (next one is pretty far away) I'm pretty much out of options. I'm still trying to find someone I can get some seed material from. Until either of those happens, does anyone have any creative solutions for seeding a tank?

 

[j2112j]

I have no experience with the following product but it looks promising to me. You may want to have a look and decide if it is an option for you.

Biomature

I don't know that it matters much but what filter are currenlty running and what media are you using in it ?

And also, I began my cycle on March 16th, and have yet to see nitrites drop to zero (though I did knowingly delay things by switching gravel).
My ammonia dosing took 5 weeks to get to the point of going from 4 to 0 in 24 hours,so don't despair

Good Luck

 

[Jojobeed]

Xawen-

I have had a similar experience as you. I fishless cycled a 55g with the Ace Ammo, janitorial strength. I put WAY too much in the first time I added it. The readings were off the chart. 5 weeks passed before I started to see Nitrites. I wasn't testing for nitrates, what's the point I thought, I don't have nitrites.

I never thought to use dechlorinator as I had no fish and just thought it would dissipate. As soon as I dosed the tank properly with the API dechlorinator, low and behold I had nitrites. So I tested for nitrates, none. This next part of the cycle went extremely fast, though.

Anyway, I have very little experience fishless cycling, just two tanks cycled fishless, a 20g and the 55g. Using dechlorinator first, and while doing water changes will help you. I think that's what stalled my cycle in my 55. Before I had even decided on my tank stock, my 55 was eating more 8ppm in 24 hours. I have a Fluval 403 and AC 300. Use the dechlorinator!

I could be wrong, but doesn't the chlorine and chloramine inhibit the bacteria we are striving for? Possibly mask some of the chemical test kits we use to determine levels of toxins in our aquaria?

My two cents, maybe not even worth that, but I too was thinking I did something wrong reading some others' posts in cycling in 20 days... It took me almost 6 weeks.

-M

 

[eco23]

Xawen-

I have had a similar experience as you. I fishless cycled a 55g with the Ace Ammo, janitorial strength. I put WAY too much in the first time I added it. The readings were off the chart. 5 weeks passed before I started to see Nitrites. I wasn't testing for nitrates, what's the point I thought, I don't have nitrites.

I never thought to use dechlorinator as I had no fish and just thought it would dissipate. As soon as I dosed the tank properly with the API dechlorinator, low and behold I had nitrites. So I tested for nitrates, none. This next part of the cycle went extremely fast, though.

Anyway, I have very little experience fishless cycling, just two tanks cycled fishless, a 20g and the 55g. Using dechlorinator first, and while doing water changes will help you. I think that's what stalled my cycle in my 55. Before I had even decided on my tank stock, my 55 was eating more 8ppm in 24 hours. I have a Fluval 403 and AC 300. Use the dechlorinator!

I could be wrong, but doesn't the chlorine and chloramine inhibit the bacteria we are striving for? Possibly mask some of the chemical test kits we use to determine levels of toxins in our aquaria?

My two cents, maybe not even worth that, but I too was thinking I did something wrong reading some others' posts in cycling in 20 days... It took me almost 6 weeks.

-M

Yeah, the dechlorinator is absolutely vital. The purpose of chlorine / chloramines is to kill bateria, and that's what you want to grow. A tank full of chlorinated water may never cycle. Plus, while chlorine eventually evaporates the chloramines don't...they're in there unless you take them out.

 

[xawen]

I'm definitely using stress coat dechlorinator at (slightly above actually) the recommended dosage.

j2112j, I actually started my "cycle" on April 4th. I wasn't hoping to see levels 0ed out by now, but at no time since 4/4 have I seen any reduction in ammonia, any nitrites or any nitrites. My cycle simply hasn't started. If it were showing any signs of doing something, I would have no problem waiting...but it just makes no sense for it to have done nothing after almost a month.