Cloudy water cant shake it

[eco23]

Yeah my too but I am loving the plant side so I wanna take that as far as I can lol but maybe skip the DIY but I do have paintball co2 cans I might just get some line and a regulator and see what I come up with...hmmmmmmmmm?

Only problem is if I tell the wife I'm buying more stuff for the aquariums...she might start packing bags, haha! My dogs are expensive...but it never seems to end with aquariums and the things you need. That's not even taking into account MTS, lol. I've been trading shoe shopping for aquarium items...but her closet is getting full and I can't stand the mall .

 

[barterking85]

Only problem is if I tell the wife I'm buying more stuff for the aquariums...she might start packing bags, haha! My dogs are expensive...but it never seems to end with aquariums and the things you need. That's not even taking into account MTS, lol. I've been trading shoe shopping for aquarium items...but her closet is getting full and I can't stand the mall .

Yeah I got a beagle and a pit bull and a baby so I really get it hard I trade off housework lol

I did a down size from 5 only to end up with nine lol I really hot spun around on that one

 

[jetajockey]

can i get a recap of what the issue was? green water?

 

[eco23]

can i get a recap of what the issue was? green water?

Green water for Ryan...just river rocks and DW covered in green for me.

I upped my lighting from a 39 watt 6,500k and a 39 watt actinic (useless I know)...so I replaced my actinic with a 39 watt 10,000k and started a flourish comp regiment from the advice from fort (and coleemsmom ). So now I'm running duel 39 watts, one 10,000k, and the other 6,500k with just liquid (oh, and Seachem root tabs under the Vals). The actinic is stashed away. I did the blackout to hopefully kill off enough of the algae to give the new lighting and ferts a chance to outcompete the algae. I'm a total newb with this stuff and am more than happy to get some expertise from you jeta.

*Oops, that's on a 46 gallon for me. I've also got the Zoo-med T5-HO fixture I'm using.

 

[eco23]

If it makes a difference, I've got Vals, water sprite, Rotala, Ambulia, java moss and a morimo ball. Pics are in my profile if the density matters.

 

[jetajockey]

Without pressurized Co2 it sounds like an algae farm waiting to happen. No matter how many ferts and lights you have on it, the co2 limitation is going to be the problem.

I wouldn't call actinics useless. I've heard it repeated that they don't do anything, and I'm sure they don't do much as far as plant growth goes, but I think they do something. I've run nothing but 18k actinics on my bowfront for a few months now and the plants are still well alive in it, but that's another story in itself.

I'm not really a fan of blackouts, I just look at it as the algae got there somehow, and whatever is making it bloom is what needs to be dealt with. For greenwater, some big water changes will remedy it in short term, and dealing with the cause will fix the long term.

And for my unorthodox plan of action- I say reduce light intensity until the system can be compensated with a proper level of Co2. Less light = less algae.

 

[eco23]

Without pressurized Co2 it sounds like an algae farm waiting to happen. No matter how many ferts and lights you have on it, the co2 limitation is going to be the problem.

I wouldn't call actinics useless. I've heard it repeated that they don't do anything, and I'm sure they don't do much as far as plant growth goes, but I think they do something. I've run nothing but 18k actinics on my bowfront for a few months now and the plants are still well alive in it, but that's another story in itself.

I'm not really a fan of blackouts, I just look at it as the algae got there somehow, and whatever is making it bloom is what needs to be dealt with. For greenwater, some big water changes will remedy it in short term, and dealing with the cause will fix the long term.

And for my unorthodox plan of action- I say reduce light intensity until the system can be compensated with a proper level of Co2. Less light = less algae.

That was my initial impression. But the advice I got from other respected members was my lighting was too low and that was creating the algae issue. I was also told the duel bulbs would put me on the edge...but I could get by without co2

The new 10,000k bulb and Flourish Comp were just started today (the blackout was my tweak just to cut back the algae to get a fresh start).

Is it true in your opinion that DIY co2 on a larger tank is potentially more of a problem than a help?

 

[jetajockey]

Do it right or don't do it at all is what I say.

For small tanks I've heard it works, but the amount you'd need to crank out to maintain 30ppm in a 40g+ is not worth the effort. Plus the fluctuation thing is a problem that would have to be dealt with, as the ambient temp changes so does co2 production.

As far as having too little lighting, what does the PAR vs Distance chart say about your lighting? One thing I can tell you for sure is that in my poorly lit tanks (think t8 shop lights spanning over multiple tanks), which is well over 25 or more at the moment, there is not a speck of algae in any of them.

But, as with everything, we all have our own opinions.

 

[eco23]

Do it right or don't do it at all is what I say.

For small tanks I've heard it works, but the amount you'd need to crank out to maintain 30ppm in a 40g+ is not worth the effort. Plus the fluctuation thing is a problem that would have to be dealt with, as the ambient temp changes so does co2 production.

As far as having too little lighting, what does the PAR vs Distance chart say about your lighting? One thing I can tell you for sure is that in my poorly lit tanks (think t8 shop lights spanning over multiple tanks), which is well over 25 or more at the moment, there is not a speck of algae in any of them.

But, as with everything, we all have our own opinions.

A bit of that was a foreign language to me, lol (total planted tank newb)...but I've got some research to do I guess. I looked at that chart and had a bit of trouble making heads or tails of it.

All I know is one 39 watt 6,500k bulb, and one 39 watt 10,000k bulb (T-5 HO's)...46 gallon bow tank is 20 inches high and lights are probably about 3" suspended over that. Before today it was just a 6500k and an actinic.

I haven't tried forts recommendation yet since I decided to start with the blackout...but now that I've got everything in place...can you do me a favor, treat me like a 5 year old and tell me exactly what you'd recommend? I'd like to avoid co2 if at all possible, or at the very least go without it long enough to know for sure I need it.

 

[Coleallensmom]

Without pressurized Co2 it sounds like an algae farm waiting to happen. No matter how many ferts and lights you have on it, the co2 limitation is going to be the problem.

I have four planted tanks- none with Co2 although with two I do dose Excel. Pressurized Co2 can keep algae at bay, but is not needed to have a successful planted tank.

I wouldn't call actinics useless. I've heard it repeated that they don't do anything, and I'm sure they don't do much as far as plant growth goes, but I think they do something. I've run nothing but 18k actinics on my bowfront for a few months now and the plants are still well alive in it, but that's another story in itself.

I don't think his problem was so much the actnics as running the actnics all day/evening. Such an extended photoperiod can cause issues IMO.

I'm not really a fan of blackouts, I just look at it as the algae got there somehow, and whatever is making it bloom is what needs to be dealt with. For greenwater, some big water changes will remedy it in short term, and dealing with the cause will fix the long term.

Agree with you there for the most part. I do think in some instances it could help though.

And for my unorthodox plan of action- I say reduce light intensity until the system can be compensated with a proper level of Co2. Less light = less algae.

That is usually the case, but less light doesn't always mean less algae IMO. Plants need enough light in combination with nutrients or they won't out compete algae. With just one bulb on his tank, he is running <1 wpg.

See my thoughts above.

 

[jetajockey]

ok..taken from tpt.net

Remember to subtract the height of the substrate.

I'm not really into the pressurized Co2 thing either, not because it's complicated or anything, it's just that I've got enough tank maintenance as it is, I'd not be able to keep up with everything that it entails, at least not currently.

So, my simplest solution is to cut back on the lighting. I run single t5ho bulbs over my planted tanks. The plants don't grow super fast, but they grow just fine. My dosing routine is a couple squirts of a macro/micro mix that I put together and excel two to three times a week. If I forget, not really a big deal, nothing happens. If the substrate is enriched with root tabs or soil, I don't dose at all.

 

[jetajockey]

WPG has little to do with PAR with these modern fixtures.

Plants do need a decent amount of light and nutrients to grow well, but if the co2 isn't there then it's a losing battle.

I agree with most of the methods I've read here, I just have a different way of doing things. If you read what some of the gurus have been writing over the past few years, they have shifted away from heavy lighting and gone for a 'less is more' type approach. That PAR chart shows that the wpg rule is dead and it doesn't take much light to get the job done.

In my experience with planted tanks, less lighting is easier to work with than more lighting, as far as balancing everything out goes.

 

[jetajockey]

Here's a good read on algae if you have time to soak your brain a little.

What limits algae? - Aquarium Plants

As I mentioned earlier, we all have our own methods and opinions, so it's really just finding what works for you.

 

[Coleallensmom]

WPG has little to do with PAR with these modern fixtures.

Plants do need a decent amount of light and nutrients to grow well, but if the co2 isn't there then it's a losing battle.

I agree with most of the methods I've read here, I just have a different way of doing things. If you read what some of the gurus have been writing over the past few years, they have shifted away from heavy lighting and gone for a 'less is more' type approach. That PAR chart shows that the wpg rule is dead and it doesn't take much light to get the job done.

In my experience with planted tanks, less lighting is easier to work with than more lighting, as far as balancing everything out goes.

I agree with everything you've said above^ with exception of two things-
1) The wpg rule may be dead, but I mentioned the <1wpg because on a 50 gal with a tall height, I don't think that is a whole heck of a lot of light, T5 bulb or not. Certain plants NEED a certain amount of light to thrive.

2) Pressurized Co2 is not needed to have healthy plants. That is just not true...can't say it enough. I really honestly think that Eco just needs to shorten his photoperiod to see if that helps before jumping to extremes.

 

[eco23]

Ummm...wow, that chart is fantastic compared to others I've seen. So according to that...I'm definitely in the high range. Now, is there a cut off where co2 becomes mandatory? As in, I'm in high lighting...I need co2?

As for the actinic...my previous photo period before removing it was 6 hours with both the 6,500k and actinic going, then just an additional 2-3 hours with only the actinic. I never ran it all night.

Obviously, what I was doing before didn't work with just the 6,500k and the actinic. So...would reinstalling the actinic and running it with the 10,000k make any difference? Or is keeping both with co2 my only option? I would have to assume with a duel bulb T-5 HO fixture, there has to be some way to mix and match bulbs where I don't need co2, but can limit algae growth, right? I don't care about how fast plants grow...I'm just tired of green substrate and DW.

Sorry...I might know a fair bit about aquariums...plants and lighting however makes me feel like I should have gotten on the short bus when I was younger.

*didn't see the last post. My current photo period is 8 hours...only started today though.

 

[jetajockey]

I agree with everything you've said above^ with exception of two things-
1) The wpg rule may be dead, but I mentioned the <1wpg because on a 50 gal with a tall height, I don't think that is a whole heck of a lot of light, T5 bulb or not. Certain plants NEED a certain amount of light to thrive.

2) Pressurized Co2 is not needed to have healthy plants. That is just not true...can't say it enough. I really honestly think that Eco just needs to shorten his photoperiod to see if that helps before jumping to extremes.

Just to answer your statements.

1) the PAR chart addresses that and gives low/medium/high ratings based on height. My main point was that plants don't need as much as is often recommended. I didn't make that chart, and it's not the be-all end-all, but it is one bit of actual proven data that shows what I am saying.

2) I never said pressurized Co2 is needed to have healthy plants. If you read what I said, I don't even use pressurized Co2 on my planted tanks.

Whether a tank has pressurized Co2 or not, the plants need Co2, and that's what I was referring to. With more light intensity comes more demand for Co2, if that demand can't be compensated for then expect problems to come.

 

[Coleallensmom]

ok..taken from tpt.net

Remember to subtract the height of the substrate.

I'm not really into the pressurized Co2 thing either, not because it's complicated or anything, it's just that I've got enough tank maintenance as it is, I'd not be able to keep up with everything that it entails, at least not currently.

So, my simplest solution is to cut back on the lighting. I run single t5ho bulbs over my planted tanks. The plants don't grow super fast, but they grow just fine. My dosing routine is a couple squirts of a macro/micro mix that I put together and excel two to three times a week. If I forget, not really a big deal, nothing happens. If the substrate is enriched with root tabs or soil, I don't dose at all.

I've used that chart for reference before, but I don't think it's the be-all and end-all when it comes to lighting i.e. I have two 20 gal longs and a 20 gal high. One 20galL has a 20w t8 bulb on it, one 20galL has a single 18w T5 bulb, and the 20galH has a dual T5 fixture. The 20galH has pretty much no algae to speak off even though that chart is saying a dual fixture would be extremely high light. Again..no Co2 on that tank, just Excel dosing. The 20galL with a single T5 bulb would also be considered to have high light according to that chart and it too has very little algae issues even w/o Excel dosing. The 20galL with the t8 bulb would be considered to have low light according to that chart and honestly, the plants grow better in that tank then the plants do in the other 20galL.

It really is just a matter of finding a balance of light+nutrients.

 

[Coleallensmom]

Just to answer your statements.

1) the PAR chart addresses that and gives low/medium/high ratings based on height. My main point was that plants don't need as much as is often recommended. I didn't make that chart, and it's not the be-all end-all, but it is one bit of actual proven data that shows what I am saying.

*ha* I said the exact same thing regarding that chart..typing while you were, obviously. Agree with your above^ statement!

2) I never said pressurized Co2 is needed to have healthy plants. If you read what I said, I don't even use pressurized Co2 on my planted tanks.

Yep, read that but you keep throwing in other random statements like, "Plants do need a decent amount of light and nutrients to grow well, but if the co2 isn't there then it's a losing battle." Kind of contradicting, don't you think?

Whether a tank has pressurized Co2 or not, the plants need Co2, and that's what I was referring to. With more light intensity comes more demand for Co2, if that demand can't be compensated for then expect problems to come.

Agree^.

More thoughts above^

 

[jetajockey]

There are all kinds of factors that play into it. Ferts can be a limiting factor as well. Bulb type, bulb age, even bulb brand all play into the light intensity. Low quality fixtures tend to produce much less intensity than higher quality ones using individual parabolic reflectors.

The charts aren't meant to be perfect, they are just reference material that has hard data in it rather than just opinion alone.

 

[jetajockey]

Yep, read that but you keep throwining other random statements like, "Plants do need a decent amount of light and nutrients to grow well, but if the co2 isn't there then it's a losing battle." Kind of contradicting, don't you think?

It's not contradicting at all. I'd like to see the growth from a low light/ low fert /no co2 tank even try to compete with a high tech /fert/pressurized co2 tank.

The more you provide, the better the plants grow, I don't think anyone can argue against that. My point was that if you provide more light/ferts, you should provide more co2 as well.

My statements are not random either, they do have a point. Let's not take this off topic anymore.