Cloudy water cant shake it

[Coleallensmom]

There are all kinds of factors that play into it. Ferts can be a limiting factor as well. Bulb type, bulb age, even bulb brand all play into the light intensity. Low quality fixtures tend to produce much less intensity than higher quality ones using individual parabolic reflectors.

The charts aren't meant to be perfect, they are just reference material that has hard data in it rather than just opinion alone.

EXACTLY. Glad we can agree on that

 

[Coleallensmom]

It's not contradicting at all. I'd like to see the growth from a low light/ low fert /no co2 tank even try to compete with a high tech /fert/pressurized co2 tank.

The more you provide, the better the plants grow, I don't think anyone can argue against that. My point was that if you provide more light/ferts, you should provide more co2 as well.

My statements are not random either, they do have a point. Let's not take this off topic anymore.

Not off topic at all IMO. I disagree with the advice you gave Eco and am trying to explain why (although obviously not doing a good job of it). I think there is a middle ground in there that you are losing sight of. You don't have to to go to extremes with lowlight or highlight. You can have a happy medium somewhere in between..and yes, you can achieve that w/o pressurized Co2.

 

[eco23]

Ummm...wow, that chart is fantastic compared to others I've seen. So according to that...I'm definitely in the high range. Now, is there a cut off where co2 becomes mandatory? As in, I'm in high lighting...I need co2?

As for the actinic...my previous photo period before removing it was 6 hours with both the 6,500k and actinic going, then just an additional 2-3 hours with only the actinic. I never ran it all night.

Obviously, what I was doing before didn't work with just the 6,500k and the actinic. So...would reinstalling the actinic and running it with the 10,000k make any difference? Or is keeping both with co2 my only option? I would have to assume with a duel bulb T-5 HO fixture, there has to be some way to mix and match bulbs where I don't need co2, but can limit algae growth, right? I don't care about how fast plants grow...I'm just tired of green substrate and DW.

Sorry...I might know a fair bit about aquariums...plants and lighting however makes me feel like I should have gotten on the short bus when I was younger.

*didn't see the last post. My current photo period is 8 hours...only started today though.

Um...sorry to quote my own post...but anyone have input, hahaha! Thanks. I appreciate both of your advice.

Again, I'm an idiot...so recommendations like "reduce lighting to 6 hours" or "replace the 6,500k back with the actinic" would be appreciated, lol.

 

[barterking85]

Mine was an 80 gallon with green water levels all great don't overfeed nor am I over stocked I pwc/vac every week of not twice a week and the black out completely resolved my issue but I do have a fair share of plants I am running 2- 40 watt x 1800 k so Iam 1 wpg for some reason my stargrass still grows

 

[Coleallensmom]

Um...sorry to quote my own post...but anyone have input, hahaha! Thanks. I appreciate both of your advice.

Again, I'm an idiot...so recommendations like "reduce lighting to 6 hours" or "replace the 6,500k back with the actinic" would be appreciated, lol.

We obviously disagree, so you'll probably get different answers What I would do if it were me? I'd run the 6,500K bulb you picked up along with your 10,000K for 8 hrs per day. No longer. Make sure no sunlight is hitting the tank, don't overfeed your fish, and don't overdose ferts. Do this for a trial period of a month or so and see how the tank does. If algae is still a serious issue, you could always put the actnic back in (or even better, run one bulb if your fixture has that capability).

 

[eco23]

We obviously disagree, so you'll probably get different answers What I would do if it were me? I'd run the 6,500K bulb you picked up along with your 10,000K for 8 hrs per day. No longer. Make sure no sunlight is hitting the tank, don't overfeed your fish, and don't overdose ferts. Do this for a trial period of a month or so and see how the tank does. If algae is still a serious issue, you could always put the actnic back in (or even better, run one bulb if your fixture has that capability).

Umm...but assuming the 10,000k and 6,500 don't work (including the new Fourish Comp regiment)...that would put me exactly back where I was with the same issues I started with. I also have no direct light, certain I don't overfeed and just started the ferts today. Hopefully the new technique works...but if not, I'd be back at square one. At that point...is co2 the only option in your opinion?

 

[Coleallensmom]

Mine was an 80 gallon with green water levels all great don't overfeed nor am I over stocked I pwc/vac every week of not twice a week and the black out completely resolved my issue but I do have a fair share of plants I am running 2- 40 watt x 1800 k so Iam 1 wpg for some reason my stargrass still grows

Sorry for hijacking your thread a bit with our lighting discussion. As discussed, WPG doesn't always apply and usually doesn't work the same way on really small tanks or really large tanks anyway. Really, really great read- http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/lighting-guide-for-a-planted-tank-141782.html

Are you really running 1800k bulbs?

 

[Coleallensmom]

Umm...but assuming the 10,000k and 6,500 don't work (including the new Fourish Comp regiment)...that would put me exactly back where I was with the same issues I started with. I also have no direct light, certain I don't overfeed and just started the ferts today. Hopefully the new technique works...but if not, I'd be back at square one. At that point...is co2 the only option in your opinion?

Not really back where you started, because honestly I think you were leaving your lights on way too long. Co2 is never the only option IMO. You can totally do a sucesssful lowlight tank with the right plants if you want to. My two 20gal longs (my 7yr old's and 8yr old's tanks) have lower light and suitable plants and do just fine..just not my cup of tea so to speak. The medium light plants (and high light plants) are so much more fun IMO. lol If that's what you prefer and algae issues continue, then yes I'd probably recommend adding Co2 at that point.

 

[barterking85]

No worries me and eco were having similar problems so we are both using it i was only using one 1800k at first with an actinic but i ordered another that is on now but I have another 8000k

In total I have all 40 watt 2 1800k
1 8000k
1 actinic
What would the best 2 bulb combo be? It's a two bulb fixture these are all the bulbs I have

No co2 running right now I am thinking DIY canister with my paint ball co2 can or the pop bottle yeast and sugar route

 

[eco23]

Not really back where you started, because honestly I think you were leaving your lights on way too long. Co2 is never the only option IMO. You can totally do a sucesssful lowlight tank with the right plants if you want to. My two 20gal longs (my 7yr old's and 8yr old's tanks) have lower light and suitable plants and do just fine..just not my cup of tea so to speak. The medium light plants (and high light plants) are so much more fun IMO. lol If that's what you prefer and algae issues continue, then yes I'd probably recommend adding Co2 at that point.

6 hours with a 39 watt 6,500k and an actinic (8 total including actinics only without the 6,500k...so a total photo period of 8 hours ) was too long in your opinion? I appreciate your responses (I really do ), but I'm just getting advice on absolute opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

[jetajockey]

Not off topic at all IMO. I disagree with the advice you gave Eco and am trying to explain why (although obviously not doing a good job of it). I think there is a middle ground in there that you are losing sight of. You don't have to to go to extremes with lowlight or highlight. You can have a happy medium somewhere in between..and yes, you can achieve that w/o pressurized Co2.

I don't consider starting on the low end as extreme, even the data chart seems to agree with me on that, besides the fact that I run single T5ho bulbs on several planted tanks.

I've not lost sight of the middle ground, I just don't know what it is on his tank, it's something he's going to have to figure out through trial and error. He's obviously not at it now because he's having so many problems.

One thing I do know is that adding more light has never solved algae issues for me. You mentioned that algae can happen because of too little light, since that's alien to me, I'd appreciate if you could explain what kind of algae follows this trend.

As far as plants outcompeting algae, how does that work exactly? Plants suck up all the nutrients so the algae doesn't get any? If it worked like that then the nutrients would be bottoming out, right? Just trying to understand the logic behind that idea.


@ryan- I know that I've created greenwater many many times using nothing more than a plastic bottle, water, grass clippings, and sunlight.

I've also created it by leaving a decent powered light on a tank for a few days straight, or by putting a really intense light on a small container of water that has been inoculated with some fertilizer.

This is one method I've used when prepping a fry tank for service.

To get rid of it, I don't black out the tank, but I do stop directly lighting it. A few big water changes will rid the tank of most of the green water, and the little bit that is left will dissipate without any direct lighting.

I have noticed that when I'm trying to make the greenwater go away, even a little bit of direct lighting at this point may make the problem worse, so I don't light the tank at all directly until it has begun to look clear.

@ryan - are you dosing ferts at all? whats your photoperiod? are you running 4 lights or am I reading that wrong?

 

[Coleallensmom]

6 hours with a 39 watt 6,500k and an actinic (8 total including actinics only without the 6,500k...so a total photo period of 8 hours ) was too long in your opinion? I appreciate your responses (I really do ), but I'm just getting advice on absolute opposite ends of the spectrum.

You were saying 6 hrs on plus actnic running in the evening until you go to bed, which sounded to me long far longer than 8 hrs total. I can't ever see myself using actnic on a planted tank, but that's just me. There are bulbs made specifically for plant health..why use anything different, algae issue nonwithstanding? I wasn't saying that the actnic itself caused your algae, just that I thought your plants would grow so much better with a rosette bulb (or even another 6,500k-10,000k bulb) then with that actnic and that in turn would help them grow better and out compete the alage better. What types of plants do you have in there again?

 

[eco23]

You were saying 6 hrs on plus actnic running in the evening until you go to bed, which sounded to me long far longer than 8 hrs total. I can't ever see myself using actnic on a planted tank, but that's just me. There are bulbs made specifically for plant health..why use anything different, algae issue nonwithstanding? I wasn't saying that the actnic itself caused your algae, just that I thought your plants would grow so much better with a rosette bulb (or even another 6,500k-10,000k bulb) then with that actnic and that in turn would help them grow better and out compete the alage better. What types of plants do you have in there again?

I never turned the lights on until the afternoon since I wasn't there to see the tank anyway. So previously (before the new lights and routine I started yesterday) I would turn both the actinic and 6,500k bulb on around 1-2pm, then turn the daylight lamp off ~8pm and just burn the actinic until 10-11.

So now...the actinic is gone and replaced with the 10,000k, and I run both that and the 6,500k from 12-8. I just started this yesterday so I have no results to report yet. I also started dosing a small amount of Flourish Comp 1-2x per week and have root tabs under the Vals.

I have Vals, Rotala Rotundifolia, Water Sprite (planted and lots floating), Java Moss and a Marimo Ball.

I appreciate all the responses and the healthy debate

 

[Coleallensmom]

No worries me and eco were having similar problems so we are both using it i was only using one 1800k at first with an actinic but i ordered another that is on now but I have another 8000k

In total I have all 40 watt 2 1800k
1 8000k
1 actinic
What would the best 2 bulb combo be? It's a two bulb fixture these are all the bulbs I have

No co2 running right now I am thinking DIY canister with my paint ball co2 can or the pop bottle yeast and sugar route

I can't see ever running anything below 6,500K in a planted tank. Daylight bulbs are designed to mimic natural sunlight, and considered full spectrum, which means they contain all the different colors of light in the light spectrum. Plants need the red, orange and yellow colors found in the lower end of the light spectrum in order for photosynthesis to occur. All my T5 fixtures have one 10,000k bulb and one Plant growth bulb.

 

[Coleallensmom]

I don't consider starting on the low end as extreme, even the data chart seems to agree with me on that, besides the fact that I run single T5ho bulbs on several planted tanks.

I've not lost sight of the middle ground, I just don't know what it is on his tank, it's something he's going to have to figure out through trial and error. He's obviously not at it now because he's having so many problems.

One thing I do know is that adding more light has never solved algae issues for me. You mentioned that algae can happen because of too little light, since that's alien to me, I'd appreciate if you could explain what kind of algae follows this trend.

As far as plants outcompeting algae, how does that work exactly? Plants suck up all the nutrients so the algae doesn't get any? If it worked like that then the nutrients would be bottoming out, right? Just trying to understand the logic behind that idea.

I was under the impression that you were saying he can't have more than 1 wpg w/o having algae issues. Which of course I don't agree with. I do agree with finding a starting pt and going with trial and error until he finds what works for his tank. The middle ground I was speaking of was the fact that a tank doesn't have to be lowlight or highlight...my tanks are medium light IMO, have little algae but enough light that my plant choices are not limited.

Freshwater Algae Types: An Illustrated Guide - Article at The Age of Aquariums - Tropical Fish

^Good read I think, but again it talks of just lowlight and highlight tanks. IME you can have a successful planted tank w/o being on either end of the spectrum.

 

[eco23]

I've read that article before and it does have some good info. I'm still at a loss though. I guess I'll follow the advice from the other thread with what I just installed and see what happens. If it's not successful I guess co2 will be the next step even though I'm really trying to avoid it.

I'm confused though because if the new light (which increased it) only makes things worse...I assume the logical step would be to remove either the 6,500k or 10,000k and run one of them. That would put me back at square one...so I don't understand where the happy medium is. It's a duel bulb system, so I'm sure there's some way to mix and match where I can grow plants decently, not have an algae farm and not need co2.

On the tanks you said you run a 10,000k and a plant growth bulb...I assume you have co2 on all those tanks?

 

[xxwolfpackof1xx]

I can't see ever running anything below 6,500K in a planted tank. Daylight bulbs are designed to mimic natural sunlight, and considered full spectrum, which means they contain all the different colors of light in the light spectrum. Plants need the red, orange and yellow colors found in the lower end of the light spectrum in order for photosynthesis to occur. All my T5 fixtures have one 10,000k bulb and one Plant growth bulb.

stuff under 6500 does work in my planted i have a 3700k and 4100k cfl all plants doing amazing im surprised it worked

 

[barterking85]

I don't consider starting on the low end as extreme, even the data chart seems to agree with me on that, besides the fact that I run single T5ho bulbs on several planted tanks.

I've not lost sight of the middle ground, I just don't know what it is on his tank, it's something he's going to have to figure out through trial and error. He's obviously not at it now because he's having so many problems.

One thing I do know is that adding more light has never solved algae issues for me. You mentioned that algae can happen because of too little light, since that's alien to me, I'd appreciate if you could explain what kind of algae follows this trend.

As far as plants outcompeting algae, how does that work exactly? Plants suck up all the nutrients so the algae doesn't get any? If it worked like that then the nutrients would be bottoming out, right? Just trying to understand the logic behind that idea.

@ryan- I know that I've created greenwater many many times using nothing more than a plastic bottle, water, grass clippings, and sunlight.

I've also created it by leaving a decent powered light on a tank for a few days straight, or by putting a really intense light on a small container of water that has been inoculated with some fertilizer.

This is one method I've used when prepping a fry tank for service.

To get rid of it, I don't black out the tank, but I do stop directly lighting it. A few big water changes will rid the tank of most of the green water, and the little bit that is left will dissipate without any direct lighting.

I have noticed that when I'm trying to make the greenwater go away, even a little bit of direct lighting at this point may make the problem worse, so I don't light the tank at all directly until it has begun to look clear.

@ryan - are you dosing ferts at all? whats your photoperiod? are you running 4 lights or am I reading that wrong?

I am using root tabs and I have a 2 bulb fixture with low/mid light plants the bulbs are 40 watt t8 18000 k but I do have an extra 8000k and an actinic just the bulbs my photo period is 6 hrs

Will co2 help things ? I dont mind spending money on things that work

 

[jetajockey]

stuff under 6500 does work in my planted i have a 3700k and 4100k cfl all plants doing amazing im surprised it worked

No one is saying that bulbs outside of the recommended range don't work, the idea is just to get bulbs that the plants can make full use of the light that they are given, i.e. mimicking daylight.

So yeah, it's possible to grow plants with bulbs outside of the daylight range (either lower or higher), but the daylight range will generally do better.

 

[jetajockey]

I am using root tabs and I have a 2 bulb fixture with low/mid light plants the bulbs are 40 watt t8 18000 k but I do have an extra 8000k and an actinic just the bulbs my photo period is 6 hrs

Will co2 help things ? I dont mind spending money on things that work

Getting some bulbs closer to daylight range will make a difference in plant growth, the 8000k is a good start.

The 18000k bulbs are blue, right?