Constipated, dropsy, or just fat?

[shepz]

Oh okay? How long would you suggest i keep her in there

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Loaches will eat snails but are not snail hunters like puffers. My clown tank has zero snail population. I think they do serve a function in all tanks, they are good at keeping leaves clean, removing some algae and general detritus. Others have a conflicting view but each to their own with snails. Some bigger snails like conch sp. are really nice!

Piscine constipation.
2.5grams per 18 litres of MgSO4, continuos bath for 1-3 days.
Water change to reduce/remove treatment from water course.

 

[shepz]

I got rid of them anyway, I wonder if my loaches are the reason why I have never seen a pond snail in the 6 years I've had fish, or maybe it's cause I've started using real plants this year

Anyway I went to tesco and they said they are restocking Friday morning, I searched other shops but no, I guess she has to hold tight till Friday

Got to go do another water change!
I'm guessing them pics of the little lines earlier were from the pond snails.

How long should I keep giving her salt baths for 1-3 days? And are they a most instant thing or will I have to wait a week too see if she's changed?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Until change occurs, after 3 days return water to a fresh condition and start again until symptoms desist.

Plants can harbour parasitic disease. Eggs, larval stages, cysts, live animals etc.

The trouble with microscopic organisms is they can't be seen.


Yes I would say snail faeces. Pretty much confirmed.

 

[shepz]

Right so I'll do that and completely rewash all the gravel and everything in the tank she's in, I sure hope these salts work, I feel like it's my last hope

 

[J.Mcpeak]

If the salt doesn't work, it isn't constipation, simple as that.

Search alternative ailments and relevant antibiotics. Again simple.

Heart wrenching I know!

You should be able to dose QT tank, any dead stuff can be siphoned when you return to fresh conditions.

 

[shepz]

I suppose, the only reason why I don't think it's constipation is because I've give her veggies, which always worked for my other fish.

So do you think worms if not constipation? I just want her In my other tank

 

[J.Mcpeak]

That was my first guess, given body shape and lack of faeces. I always treat for worms, day one of new fish. The only exception is if I treat for bacteria. Either way all fish I buy go through the same process on an annual basis. Anti bac, anti parasite, even if they look fine. Meds are cheaper than fish, that fish is only that fish, it isn't one that looks like it, does that make sense?
I'm not sure if I've explained my history here to you but I have elsewhere. It's the biggest killer excepting human error. That is my personal experience over 8 years.

Most fish are wild caught or they all spend some time with wild caught, most wild fish harbour some kind of disease. See plecostomus has bloated stomach, this is one of my posts copied from that,

All animals are capable of getting intestinal worms. Cats dogs horses and fish.
Fish store can provide the meds. Internal bacteria and internal parasite.
These are two things you cannot easily see on or in a fish.
This is why we quarantine new stock to avoid contaminating all the creatures we have learned to love.
Treat the system, follow instructions to the letter. Once complete you should have no more problems. I do this annually on all of my tanks, I treat and check new fish as a safety precaution, even if they look fine. A fish may look fine but be carrying a host of diseases especially if it is wild caught. Most shops run a system where multiple tanks share the same water. It is usually divided into, marine, brackish, pH neutral, hard and soft water species. That's 5 systems. Any fish in each system may have any number of things. Some things like coral and plants have there own independent set ups.

So you see why I think this,
9 times out of 10 it's worms or similar internal parasite or bacteria.

 

[shepz]

Agh I guess I'll do that from now on if I get anymore fish. How do you know what worms te fish has or are the medicines just there for all types? I think I might have used my last meds a few months ago so I'll have to buy some at the weekend, sucks.

Do worms also stop the fish from laying waste?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

The worms digest the food, they normally live in the intestines or stomach or can also live in the body cavity, excessively hungry fish is another clue, lots of eating feeds the worm. See,
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f17/gold-saum-protruding-anus-285953.html

That time I was bang on. Read the full link.

Yes they can physically block the passage or consume food before the host (fish)

 

[shepz]

So I'll try these salts, what's the symptoms I should look for if she's getting better, just less bloat and seeing faeces?

If this doesn't work then I'm going to have to buy meds for worms and try that, should I ask the place where I got my fish from what meds I should use or do you think they'll talk nonsense?

As far as meds go, what would be a good thing to do, first clean the tank 100% including filter and gravel, and then medicate? Or medicate first and when the doses are over, clean the tank/gravel/filter?

Thanks to you and jlk for sticking with me over these days, if there one thing I can't stand it's a bad forum with bad users, and this sure as hell isn't one of them!

 

[J.Mcpeak]

So I'll try these salts, what's the symptoms I should look for if she's getting better, just less bloat and seeing faeces?

If this doesn't work then I'm going to have to buy meds for worms and try that, should I ask the place where I got my fish from what meds I should use or do you think they'll talk nonsense?

As far as meds go, what would be a good thing to do, first clean the tank 100% including filter and gravel, and then medicate? Or medicate first and when the doses are over, clean the tank/gravel/filter?

Thanks to you and jlk for sticking with me over these days, if there one thing I can't stand it's a bad forum with bad users, and this sure as hell isn't one of them!

Correct, observe faeces from fish.
Water change, Treat tank ASAP, that will kill the beasties. Follow instructions on label.

Some meds require no water to be changed for sometimes a week or more! That's the hardest part, waiting.

Thanks for the thanks, means a lot and costs nothing.

I still want to be wrong!

There is good and bad in all walks of life, aim for the good.

You may be able to treat for both possible causes. Constipation/int. parasites.
Downside, you will not know what caused you the headache. If you don't think it's constipation (veggies normally work) skip that bit. That's what I'd do, you know your fish better than anyone.
Meds from any fish store or online.

In any case update please.

 

[shepz]

Right I'll try the Epsom salts just to be sure, can Epsom also help with worms at all?

I'll have to order something or either pick some up on Sunday, Friday I'm at college and on Saturday I'm at a powerlifting competition, as for meds, are they reliant on brands? Or could I get any and it should do the trick?

Also, what's the youngest age a fish can breed, my two black moores are chasing and bumping, one has gotten fatter and the other one doing the chasing does look like he's getting these white tubercles that you've both been talking about. There both eating and laying perfectly fine waste, and are active and seem happy. I haven't had them ages though, maybe half a year tops, if that.

Ps. Jamie, I've seen pictures of your fishes on Flickr, bloody gorgeous!

 

[aqua_chem]

I'm confused about the epsom salt. I always thought that it was used to treat symptoms, not actually address an underlying cause. It's not going to actually address any problems here. Shouldn't we also be trying something that's more curative like medicated food, especially considering we're ahead of the curve on this?

 

[jlk]

I'm confused about the epsom salt. I always thought that it was used to treat symptoms, not actually address an underlying cause. It's not going to actually address any problems here. Shouldn't we also be trying something that's more curative like medicated food, especially considering we're ahead of the curve on this?

I still do not believe the issue here is worms. Intestinal parasites actually are not very common in goldfish unlike some other species such as cichlids. Not ruling it out but it would be lower on my list of possibilities.

Epsom salt does have laxative properties and help alleviate fluid retention to a degree. I suggested using this to see if constipation was an issue here.

Interestingly enough, there are some great articles on the use of MgSO4 via ingestion (either voluntary or involuntary) to treat intestinal parasites, particularly in cichlids, and its effectiveness. It actually has been shown to have greater efficacy and less toxicity than many medications that are commonly used (ie, fenben, metro, prazi, etc). I have yet to try this with goldfish but as I mentioned, intestinal parasites are not a common issue and all of my fish are routinely treated with prazi anyway. I will have to dig up the articles for you if you are interested!

 

[shepz]

That's the thing we don't actually know what it is so if I don't try the Epsom, we won't know for definite so better safe than sorry.

Is be interested in this article! Would be a good read.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

JLK, If your fish are routinely treated for parasites, why would there be any? As I understand it these fish have never been treated for both internal bacteria or parasites. That's the first thing I do!

Treat the known killers, bacteria in particular as it can accumulate in a tank without new stock or plant additions. Faecal matter, bacteria heaven.

Why do you make it a routine? Same reasons as me, safety. Peace of mind. The best solution to ensure livestock health? You can't see these things so kill them as a matter of fact, then you know what it isn't.

I sort of agree with aqua chem, everybody rates MgSO4, I have never used it other prescriptions have dealt with everything. It is in my mind unnecessary however it has known medical properties, with cautious use, not for soft water species.

 

[shepz]

Earliest time I'll be able to get meds would be Sunday so I'll to the Epsom first and meds after, thing it's the best thing I can do atm

 

[aqua_chem]

Epsom salt is only a diarrhetic if ingested via osmosis. If you just add it to water, it may help to draw out retained fluids, but you're not actually doing anything to address the problem at hand.

 

[pip walters]

The fish is simply gravid - that overhead picture clearly shows the 'bulge' is to one side (the fish's right side' and to the rear of the abdomen, which is always the case with a goldfish that is ready for spawning - the eggs begin to swell as they hydrate prior to them being released to the lower ovary just before spawning.

Now, if the eggs are released to the lower ovary, but no spawning takes place, then the eggs will rot inside the fish and cause septicaemia and ultimately death - but don't panic as this is not always the case. You have a couple of options here

Was the fish in a tank with others? If so, are there any males? Males in spawning condition should display white tubercles on the head and gills, sometimes also on the pectoral fins and even the body... even if not in full condition, they will often feel 'rough' to the touch.... they also lose much of the body slime prior to spawning. If you have males, you can put her back and spawning may occur. Goldfish may spawn once every few days until all eggs are released.

Option 2 is to wait until the eggs are dropped into the lower ovary - indicated by a very soft abdomen - hold the fish gently upside down and mover her from side to side... if the 'buldge' flops from side to side, then it is likely that spawning is imminent. At this point, a gentle squeeze, pushing the fore finger and thumb either side of the fish, back towards the vent area, will expel some eggs. If eggs flow freely, then it is best to 'strip' the fish like this to remove as many as you can.

Often, if spawning is imminent, eggs will actually fall from the fish when it is lifted from the water.

If you can hold the fish upside down and take a good photo, I may be able to advise you more on whether she is ready for this treatment.

My best advice though, would be to place he back in the original tank where she has more room (to reduce stress) and watch the other fish to see if any start to 'chase' her... these will be the males.

There are several triggers to the spawning process and if these are not all in place, then ... and this is the good news.... the eggs will just be re-absorbed by the fish so as not to waste the immense effort she has put into developing her eggs. She will be carrying several 'year classes' of eggs ready for development when conditions are right, so once her present gravid state passes, the process of developing the next batch (known as vitellogenesis) will begin.

Constipation is normally indicated by colourless trailing faeces - often mistaken for intestinal worms

Hope that helps