Deficiencies and toxicities of plant nutrients.

[Caliban07]

This experiment was very interesting. It was passed to me by a member of the planted tank.

The micronutrient levels display in the chart are above what would be typically found in CMS+B and are they values that has (at the time?) had the most success.

They are described in the article as 'full strength' concentrations. Two of the test subjects did not fare well and it was suspected that the 'relatively high' levels of micro nutrients was the cause (although further testing would be required.

After about 2-3 weeks using CSM+B you would easily exceed these levels especially if your replacement water is high in micro nutrients or you use an already trace rich substrate.

Toxicity would be species dependent of course.

http://mobile.tube.aslo.net/lo/toc/vol_11/issue_4/0529.pdf

Edit: that is targeting 0.2ppm fe 3 times a week using CSM+B

 

[Caliban07]

Using manganese as an example. 0.2ppm fe x 3 from CSM+B EI dosing with 50% water changes would peak at 0.23ppm after about 25 days.

Mn levels in the experiment were 0.27ppm. This was speculated to have damaged N.flexilis and C.Demersum

Nutrient accumulation was taken rotala butterfly.com without nutrient uptake taken in to account however, this does not include any other possible sources of micro nutrients that may enter the tank.

 

[mandoborg]

Ive been following this subject with great interest since the beginning. I stopped all csm+b on March 5 according to a previous post. I have no idea what the technical mumbo-jumbo is, but thought I'd drop back in. EVERY plant in my tanks are doing so much better ! Zero yellowing or melting. No holes........GREEN...I mean some greens are borderline neon !! But the best benefit is the dwarf sag has shed all it's yellow and melted leaves and is now Bright green and just really healthy looking....There's even a bit less algae but I'm not directly attributing that to the lack csm+b. I'm still dosing the Chelated Iron twice a week where the csm+b was in y EI regiment. I tossed out the left over csm+b. Don't think I'll ever have a need for that anymore !! :O)

 

[Bert2oo1]

Ive been following this subject with great interest since the beginning. I stopped all csm+b on March 5 according to a previous post. I have no idea what the technical mumbo-jumbo is, but thought I'd drop back in. EVERY plant in my tanks are doing so much better ! Zero yellowing or melting. No holes........GREEN...I mean some greens are borderline neon !! But the best benefit is the dwarf sag has shed all it's yellow and melted leaves and is now Bright green and just really healthy looking....There's even a bit less algae but I'm not directly attributing that to the lack csm+b. I'm still dosing the Chelated Iron twice a week where the csm+b was in y EI regiment. I tossed out the left over csm+b. Don't think I'll ever have a need for that anymore !! :O)

You should have asked on the planted tank forum and they would have told u it was a co2 issues or a mechanical filtration issue lol I don't see why people ignore potential toxicity issues with micro nutrients. It is clearly a problem with EI micro dosing.

Glad to hear your tanks thriving! The hobby is so much more rewarding when u see results [emoji1] what substrate are u using out of interest?

 

[toolman]

This thread and the planted tank threads led me to use pps-pro over Ei, hoping to avoid the toxicity, but watching very carefully as I go forward.
After 1 month everything looks amazing so far.

 

[flchamp89]

While certainly alot isnt needed but is there no concern on the long term effects of the lack of boron.

 

[Caliban07]

Just to clarify. The problem with toxicity is related to the elements in question. This isn't a thread to detract from EI. Rather it is to raise awareness that when targeting an iron concentration using dry trace mixes potential issues can ensue depending on certain parameters. EI can and does work for many people so this is not a problem directly related to EI.

 

[Caliban07]

Ive been following this subject with great interest since the beginning. I stopped all csm+b on March 5 according to a previous post. I have no idea what the technical mumbo-jumbo is, but thought I'd drop back in. EVERY plant in my tanks are doing so much better ! Zero yellowing or melting. No holes........GREEN...I mean some greens are borderline neon !! But the best benefit is the dwarf sag has shed all it's yellow and melted leaves and is now Bright green and just really healthy looking....There's even a bit less algae but I'm not directly attributing that to the lack csm+b. I'm still dosing the Chelated Iron twice a week where the csm+b was in y EI regiment. I tossed out the left over csm+b. Don't think I'll ever have a need for that anymore !! :O)

Excellent news. I'm having similar results. I'm glad things have improved because I know just how frustrating it can be when you have literally tried everything you thought was right and many things you have learned about high tech planted tanks is wrong.

 

[Caliban07]

You should have asked on the planted tank forum and they would have told u it was a co2 issues or a mechanical filtration issue lol I don't see why people ignore potential toxicity issues with micro nutrients. It is clearly a problem with EI micro dosing.

Glad to hear your tanks thriving! The hobby is so much more rewarding when u see results [emoji1] what substrate are u using out of interest?

It's because it has never happened to those people and of course micro toxicity goes against their beliefs and philosophies on how to run a successfully planted tank. Also most who haven't experienced and are dismissive of the issue usually have liquid rock source water.

I used to blame co2 in the very same manner that those people did on the planted tank. Everyone who has had this issue did. It's only when you are at your wits end you become willing to try something new that you embrace the possibility, hence the title.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/stumped-and-at-a-loss.49600/page-2#post-487149

Same fertiliser as I was using. Same symptoms, same algae, same woes.

 

[Caliban07]

While certainly alot isnt needed but is there no concern on the long term effects of the lack of boron.

Champ. My plan is to run lean on nutrients, feed more often and change less water. In fact, the way I'm running my tank at the moment goes against everything I have learned in the past 3 years. It's a hybrid method of sorts and it's giving more greater success. I'm letting the plants and micro organisms decide what to take up from the soil. If I see deficiency I'll take that over any toxicity as this is 1000 times better for the system as a whole.

Also I could just buy some boric acid [emoji846]

If I didn't have a fertile substrate I would still be treading very carefully.

 

[flchamp89]

I understand. It's funny. Thats kind of what I was talking about in one of our PMs. This is only my second or third tank with a nutrient plan. Hence when I said only recently got hot on the wc bandwagon.


Just saw it....don't use boric acid

 

[Caliban07]

I understand. It's funny. Thats kind of what I was talking about in one of our PMs. This is only my second or third tank with a nutrient plan. Hence when I said only recently got hot on the wc bandwagon.


Just saw it....don't use boric acid

Oh really? I haven't done much research on it to be fair.

 

[brendenscott]

Very interesting this thread. So all of you that are having issues do you use some kind of nutrient rich substrate?? Just trying to see if that may be part of issue with too much micros already in substrate. I have gravel for my high tech 40ppm co2 100 par at substrate setup and have no such issues dosing EI levels both macros and micros. Just trying to see what is different here.

 

[Caliban07]

Very interesting this thread. So all of you that are having issues do you use some kind of nutrient rich substrate?? Just trying to see if that may be part of issue with too much micros already in substrate. I have gravel for my high tech 40ppm co2 100 par at substrate setup and have no such issues dosing EI levels both macros and micros. Just trying to see what is different here.

That could be one issue yes. In my first tank that this happened yes I had soil. I'm my current tank I was originally just using eco complete which will eventually become nutrient rich the more you dose.

If your water is hard or has lots of calcium you are less likely to have issues. That would be the largest protection factor. It also depends on the species.

I've found rotala macrandra, rotala wallichii and Pogostemon stellatus, to be particularly sensitive. I still thing I am having issues but at a much slower rate now.

The hypothesis is the high CEC substrate (soil/eco cap) has retained nutrients and are leaching back in to the water column almost like a concentration gradient. Nutrients leech until water column is saturated then slow down. When you do a water change removing nutrients from the water the substrate begins to leech again. It could take a while to see perfect growth. I'm just changing water more frequently although less of it.

 

[Caliban07]

One of the guys had his water lab tested and says it was extremely toxic.

House plants water using old tank water would die and daphnia poured in to a cup of tank water would form egg sacs which is apparently a clear sign of environmental stress.

 

[Bert2oo1]

Very interesting this thread. So all of you that are having issues do you use some kind of nutrient rich substrate?? Just trying to see if that may be part of issue with too much micros already in substrate. I have gravel for my high tech 40ppm co2 100 par at substrate setup and have no such issues dosing EI levels both macros and micros. Just trying to see what is different here.

Certainly could be a big factor as cal said. I too was running just Eco complete, I've not added a soil layer underneath and haven't dosed micro's for over 2 months. Plant growth is strong and the old plants have never recovered. Mine too are rotala Colorata, rotala naja and rotala sp green.

As cal said it seems that harder water tends to help keep toxicity away where as people with soft water like myself (40tds from the tap, 0gh 0kh) tend to run into issues as heavy metals start to build up.

EI seems to work for a lot of people (generally with harder water) but there is certainly a micro issue for those with softer water.

 

[Caliban07]

Certainly could be a big factor as cal said. I too was running just Eco complete, I've not added a soil layer underneath and haven't dosed micro's for over 2 months. Plant growth is strong and the old plants have never recovered. Mine too are rotala Colorata, rotala naja and rotala sp green.

As cal said it seems that harder water tends to help keep toxicity away where as people with soft water like myself (40tds from the tap, 0gh 0kh) tend to run into issues as heavy metals start to build up.

EI seems to work for a lot of people (generally with harder water) but there is certainly a micro issue for those with softer water.

I think you meant to say you 'also' have soil? [emoji2]

I would like to add that this topic of discussion is becoming and will become increasingly acknowledged in the future of this hobby.

It has gained much attention in the last few years and in my opinion can no longer be ignored.

 

[Bert2oo1]

I think you meant to say you 'also' have soil? [emoji2]

I would like to add that this topic of discussion is becoming and will become increasingly acknowledged in the future of this hobby.

It has gained much attention in the last few years and in my opinion can no longer be ignored.

Haha oops yes! I mean "also" haha

It's actually amazing to see just how many people have come out of the wood work with similar issues.

There is no denying that there is a problem. I've been growing plants long enough now to atleast half know what I'm doing lol

 

[Caliban07]

Haha oops yes! I mean "also" haha

It's actually amazing to see just how many people have come out of the wood work with similar issues.

There is no denying that there is a problem. I've been growing plants long enough now to atleast half know what I'm doing lol

The problem is (and I fear always will be) that there is very little definitive scientific evidence available that quantifies toxic concentrations. It's also difficult because the conditions and variables in which toxicity can become a problem are so wide. I'm sure modern science could perform a set of experiments on popular aquarium plants to help clear the waters?

But how would that affect the muti-million pound fertiliser and plant supplying companies? They certainly ain't going to fund it. Having said that I do think the larger companies have at least taken more of a sensible approach when it comes to producing a more rounded at considered micronutrient fertiliser.

There must be a lot of science behind these companies too to develop such a product right?

Going off on a tangent now though.

 

[Bert2oo1]

The problem is (and I fear always will be) that there is very little definitive scientific evidence available that quantifies toxic concentrations. It's also difficult because the conditions and variables in which toxicity can become a problem are so wide. I'm sure modern science could perform a set of experiments on popular aquarium plants to help clear the waters?

But how would that affect the muti-million pound fertiliser and plant supplying companies? They certainly ain't going to fund it. Having said that I do think the larger companies have at least taken more of a sensible approach when it comes to producing a more rounded at considered micronutrient fertiliser.

There must be a lot of science behind these companies too to develop such a product right?

Going off on a tangent now though.

Correct, if the product works for 8/10 people then it becomes an extremely easy product to market. As u say the variables are the problem. There is so many people with different water sources and dosing regimes how would u test for something like that? It would have to be and extremely extensive study to look at all variables.

I'm sure that people like Barr and other big names in the planted tank scene would have some pretty nice sponsorships from many fertiliser company's.

Must be co2?