Deficiencies and toxicities of plant nutrients.

[flchamp89]

The problem is (and I fear always will be) that there is very little definitive scientific evidence available that quantifies toxic concentrations. It's also difficult because the conditions and variables in which toxicity can become a problem are so wide. I'm sure modern science could perform a set of experiments on popular aquarium plants to help clear the waters?

But how would that affect the muti-million pound fertiliser and plant supplying companies? They certainly ain't going to fund it. Having said that I do think the larger companies have at least taken more of a sensible approach when it comes to producing a more rounded at considered micronutrient fertiliser.

There must be a lot of science behind these companies too to develop such a product right?

Going off on a tangent now though.

These are great points. Too add to that. A lot of research has been done on terrestrial plants and of course crops. These kind of questions are fairly easy to get answers for if were talking about these kind of plants.

So many of our plants we use have been targets for herbicides very little work has been done on how to grow them.

I know you both have had issues outside of rotala. I also have issues with mine at a certain part in there growth. There is so much to learn. With all that we do know on the terrestrial side....in reality we are still a long ways away from from knowing everything we need to or should. I think there is little scientific hope that the aquatic side will ever catch up.

I've tried to apply my terrestrial knowledge to my tanks over the years. While also increasing my knowledge of water chemistry. Its no where enough..it helps greatly. But no better than the average Joe.

I see validity in the concept of micro toxicity. But im holding on to the idea that it is rare. But do think its a soft water issue.

Im also concerned that soil is only a short term band aid at best. As weve duscussed all soil is not created equal. But at the time the soil is exhausted of nutrients it will be too late in some cases to possibly repair any internal plant cell damage due to the lack of micros?

So we add micros towards the end of the soil shelf life? How do we know when that is? And if we do this and the tank is considered a success how do we know it was from what we did? How do we over all prove this theory?

No doubt soil is the best thing to grow plants in. Like fish....should we try and grow plants that work in our specific water? I think the answer is yes.

Other questions that need cconsideration. What role does trimming have in all of this? Formulation of macro and micros? Aquatic diseases ( very little info out there).

 

[Caliban07]

All we can do is take things day by day. How is it that I am able to stop dosing altogether then witness pinker, straighter leaves sprouting from my AR mini? That is backwards but that is what is happening.

I agree there is so much we do not know with plant/algae and bacteria biology.

I'm using the rotalas as a sort of control yet I fear the wallichii is dead and buried. If I buy a new tissue culture this weekend plant it and it grows (like it was doing) without changing any variables what would that signify?

I don't believe micros will deplete very quickly in soil. Again this is just a belief and is subjective based on other environmental factors. You saw my 180 litre in its short prime before I tore it down. I wasn't dosing micros at all then or calcium. It was just soil some macros and co2. My cap was gravel though. Now it is eco complete. This stuff concerns me with the dosing I did.

I think trimming is very valid and important. I'm due a trim this weekend. I may even replace the rotala macrandra as well as the wallichii and see how they grow.

 

[flchamp89]

Some organic soil has a natural nitrogen source I suspect. Im confident miracle grows uses N.
My guess soil benefits range from 6 to 12 months? Some soils are full of micros. Your plants are receiving micros now. Only difference is at what levels and which ones?

I see zero value in eco. I feel like an idiot for using it lol.

 

[Caliban07]

Some organic soil has a natural nitrogen source I suspect. Im confident miracle grows uses N.
My guess soil benefits range from 6 to 12 months? Some soils are full of micros. Your plants are receiving micros now. Only difference is at what levels and which ones?

I see zero value in eco. I feel like an idiot for using it lol.

I just remember Diana Walstad's stats on soil nutrients and how long a typical bag of topsoil would provide them for and there were pretty phenomenal values.

They are quoted here:

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/the-soil-substrate-explained-343789.html

 

[flchamp89]

So your first post in regards to longevity is from her?

 

[Caliban07]

So your first post in regards to longevity is from her?

It's from her book which is cited in the references. I can't recall how her estimations were extrapolated but a lot of her work is based on scientific papers as you know.

 

[flchamp89]

Yes I have tremendous respect for her. But I highly disagree with those stats

 

[Caliban07]

Yes I have tremendous respect for her. But I highly disagree with those stats

It's micros that are high but the macros don't see to last that long. I can't say I agree or disagree. I have the book and I'll see if I can find out just exactly how she came to those numbers. That's for 10kg btw our tanks will have considerably less.

 

[flchamp89]

That's only 23 lbs or so. Whatever numbers would vary greatly obviously on soil. But I just see no way those can be close. N doesnt naturally occur in soil so ya macros are low as a whole.

But thats irrelevant to topic. Plants grow in soil. No specific aquarium substrate will have more nutritional value than soil. Soil will always be superior. But im not seeing how using soil with x amount of whatever proves anything in relation to micro toxity.

What I see is perhaps there a correlation of dosing micros with a cec substrate and toxicity.

 

[Caliban07]

But im not seeing how using soil with x amount of whatever proves anything in relation to micro toxity.

What I see is perhaps there a correlation of dosing micros with a cec substrate and toxicity.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Ultimately. The problem is not with soil, or PPS-Pro or EI or CSM+B. The problem is that the concentration of heavy metals at any one time is too great for some of the living organisms within our specific ecosystem. How this detrimental concentration has arrived there is the real issue.

Bert is 2 months without micros now. I'm not far behind. Would I be surprised to see deficiencies eventually arise? Not really, I can't say when that will be because at the moment I have plants that are recovering from a poor state of health. They are not in decline, they are responding positively but I can't prove anything. I am only proposing a possible solution to poor plant growth.

With all due respect. If you actually read the dozens of threads on the subject and can relate to nearly all them in some way like I did it really does help to digest the prospect a whole lot more. I don't blame anyone for being sceptical but would you know the symptoms of toxicity even if it was right in front of you? (not you personally) if we look at a plant that we have only ever seen grow a certain way then it becomes the norm.

 

[brendenscott]

Guess I will stay away from the eco complete I was going to get for my new 20 gallon build and stick with the National Geographic black sand for substrate. This way I can just stick to the normal micro dosing and not have to worry about the toxicity levels possibly building up. Glad I came across this thread as there is a lot of good information here.

So if you feel it's possible that softer water is more effected could this not be proven and fixed? By hardening the water and see if some issues fix? I have to harden my water as it is because my levels are just too low from tap.

 

[flchamp89]

I agree. What caused it has to be substrate, par, and water related. Aside from any isolated internal cell issues. No doubt micro deficiencies are tough to identify to say the least. I haven't posted much here but have been following along.

I haven't really wanted to post because of my tremendous respect for you. But Im not getting how were going to get any concrete answers from you or berts tank. We can certainly grow plants without micros in any substrate. Macros as well. Some will actually flourish. But given all the species of plants as well as water parameters we keep them in not sure how we get answers.

At some point certain species in certain parameters will need nutrients inside the closed system. If we dont provide them there will be certain issues that will occur. Some of which once dosing begins will not be able to be corrected.

Micro toxicity in terrestrial plants is so rare ive never can say for sure ive seen it regardless of soil. So what factors contribute to it taking place in our tanks?

Is the cec an issue in certain substrates? Is there a buildup vs controlled release. I dont know lol

 

[Caliban07]

I agree. What caused it has to be substrate, par, and water related. Aside from any isolated internal cell issues. No doubt micro deficiencies are tough to identify to say the least. I haven't posted much here but have been following along.

I haven't really wanted to post because of my tremendous respect for you. But Im not getting how were going to get any concrete answers from you or berts tank. We can certainly grow plants without micros in any substrate. Macros as well. Some will actually flourish. But given all the species of plants as well as water parameters we keep them in not sure how we get answers.

At some point certain species in certain parameters will need nutrients inside the closed system. If we dont provide them there will be certain issues that will occur. Some of which once dosing begins will not be able to be corrected.

Micro toxicity in terrestrial plants is so rare ive never can say for sure ive seen it regardless of soil. So what factors contribute to it taking place in our tanks?

Is the cec an issue in certain substrates? Is there a buildup vs controlled release. I dont know lol

It's tough to explain when you haven't seen the symptoms. When you see them you never forget them. I consider myself fairly sensible and I like to think I'm pretty logical but no where near as sensible or logical as some of the people who have been struggling. I've provided lots of photographs and links. That all I can do. It's up to you what you do with the information. I'm not trying to convince anyone because those who approach the subject with a predetermined opinion will most likely never be convinced this way.

I don't know about terrestrial plants. I'm not interested in them. I don't grow them.

The theory is that the CEC substrate soaks up nutrients until at can no longer do so then they enter the water column.

What about synthetic chelates? How quickly is the bond broken? Are they lasting longer than we realise in the soil solution? I'm not sure either. This thread as always been about anecdotal suspicions and observations. For me they are very interesting because they are overwhelmingly consistent with my experiences.

 

[flchamp89]

I think that's a valuable statement. I like the cec theory. My little tank should be about at that point.

Very poor decision on my part. Too many risks and unknowns with cec in planted tank. Is there any binding of N in these substrates. Although N persistence is low could nominal binding and releasing be a factor vs micros?

In southeast US we have great data on N needs of specific material. Curious...

 

[Caliban07]

I think it is the divalent cations that are most tightly bound.

Ferrous iron being the most strongly bound plant nutrient wise.

There's also a lot of shifting or 'bumping' of nutrients such that weaker bound ions will be displaced by stronger binding ions causing mobility of nutrients. It is this phenomena (as I understand it) that can increase the likelihood of toxicity.

 

[flchamp89]

Ph will play a binding role. Fe typically binds at the lower end. Problem is translocation is fast. In terrestrial world transpiration is high too.

 

[Bert2oo1]

Keep going, it's good! "Grabs popcorn" [emoji16]

It's all comes back to variables really doesn't it. Depending on how much of what your dosing u will have different levels of ions binding together etc. water softness, substrate, dosing all plays a huge role in difference between tanks. Without knowing exactly what is in your water source it makes it hard to pin point where the problems start.

I know I for one have no clue what the 40ppm is in my tap water, could be copper, mg, ca, mn, iron etc etc I know there is copper present tho as I've killed many snails lol the wife brought one the other week and it lasted 2 weeks and died. Even with supplying calcium for it. She's slack on the dechlorinator so I'm guessing it was the copper.

A good example with my tank is iron dosing. If I dose 5ml of seachem iron(0.5ppm from memory?) the tank goes cloudy within 10 minutes. Clearly I either have a lot of iron already in the water and it is over dosing or I have an excess of phosphate and its binding to the fe when I dose it. I always dose on seperate days to macros and it still happens. Either the soil with the red clay is providing enough iron or my uptake of phosphates is low. I haven't figured out what one yet.
I might dose some today actually since I haven't dosed macros all week and see what result I get

 

[UntimelyLord]

Micro toxicity in terrestrial plants is so rare ive never can say for sure ive seen it regardless of soil.

I've been following along with interest, though I don't have much to say myself, except that I've been thinking about fertilizer toxicities in terrestrial plants as well. Seems that it's always macro toxicities in terrestrial plants, typically N. I was just thinking there would be more research available on terrestrial plants that could be relevant, although I don't know enough about the difference between aquatic and terrestrial flora to know how such research would translate.

 

[flchamp89]

I've been following along with interest, though I don't have much to say myself, except that I've been thinking about fertilizer toxicities in terrestrial plants as well. Seems that it's always macro toxicities in terrestrial plants, typically N. I was just thinking there would be more research available on terrestrial plants that could be relevant, although I don't know enough about the difference between aquatic and terrestrial flora to know how such research would translate.

Exactly...idk. Some things translate some do not.

 

[Delapool]

I have been still reading and was thinking I can remember reading on different plants but might be useful to have some bullet points on what to look for in micro toxicity that was seen? I did a quick look and it seems to affect new growth?

I've also wondered if a plant with roots will be better at managing nutrient uptake compared to say a fresh cut stem plant?