Angel Eggs hatching

[Hobbiest]

Much better picture and your right, but they are beautiful angels. I hope Andy pops on here she would know what kind they are. How many angels do you have?

 

[Linwood]

Much better picture and your right, but they are beautiful angels. I hope Andy pops on here she would know what kind they are. How many angels do you have?

I have 2 in one tank, not mated, koi.

Six in another tank, 2 pair mated (one has only briefly laid eggs, then ate them). The other two in there are Koi also, younger.

We got them for some interest and color in the tank, which is otherwise a bit bland (lots of green, black and grey). And they do add that, but I kind of wish they were all unmatted, as I suspect they will become an issue.

Though raising the fry this once has been fun.

I may clear everyone (relevant) out of the first tank, and swap some around, and put one mated pair in there, and let them raise their own fry. I have a pleco and raphael catfish in there, who are probably safe, and some ghost shrimp who are probably not, but they might at least have a chance.

 

[Hobbiest]

They don't fight with six in a tank? I had four in a 65 gal and they always were fighting. This heightened when my striped angel lost it's mate(The only angel I have ever lost).

When I first took my marbled angels out of the big tank it had a lot to do with them being aggressive to my striped veil tail angel and also so they could raise their fry, now I'm afraid I am going to have to put them back in the big tank so the fry can grow bigger in twenty gal.

I moved 18 fry to a thirty gal, but left about twelve in with parents. I didn't want to put all 30 fry in a thirty gal I figured that would be too many.

 

[Linwood]

They don't fight with six in a tank? I had four in a 65 gal and they always were fighting. This heightened when my striped angel lost it's mate(The only angel I have ever lost).

The tank with six is a 220G tank, so there's a lot of room. The two pairs picked sites separated by a lot of foliage. But for a brief time when both were in protective mode the rest of the tank residents were a bit stressed. They still had room and (by luck) neither spot was where I usually feed.

When we bought them we realized it may be an issue, but the one fact we missed in all this is how relatively continuously angels tend to breed. I assumed it was just every few months we might have a tense time. Should have done my homework.

The telling time will be when the two koi's mature. Right now it is more like having four -- they aren't old enough (or perhaps the right sex) yet.

 

[Hobbiest]

I wish I could have a tank that big but afraid my family would move me out! The one advantage you have is that you live in Florida and there will be a demand for the juvenile angels. I'm afraid here in a small town in Illinois I may have issues finding them homes.

You should post pics of your tanks on your profile I'm sure they are beautiful.

 

[Hobbiest]

I may clear everyone (relevant) out of the first tank, and swap some around, and put one mated pair in there, and let them raise their own fry. I have a pleco and raphael catfish in there, who are probably safe, and some ghost shrimp who are probably not, but they might at least have a chance.[/QUOTE


The only problem I see there is the catfish, They are scavengers and will eat eggs or fry when the eggs fall or the frees swimmers venture away from parents. I have two Pictus catfish in my big tank.

 

[Andy Sager]

I hope Andy pops on here she would know what kind they are. How many angels do you have?

My Mother might agree with your gender of me as I did look a lot like a girl as a teen ( I was still a hippy back in the 70s) but I am my Mother's SON. Please stop calling me "She". It will really confuse my Daughter.

 

[Andy Sager]

As for the typing of Angelfish, you should go to "theAngelfishSociety.org" and go to the phenotype catalog under the "about Angels" tab. These are the the standards for what is what. There are many fish that are unrecognized crosses. Just for kicks, you should also go to the "original phenotype library" under that same tab. You will see a difference in what was to what is now for sure.

 

[Linwood]

As for the typing of Angelfish, you should go to "theAngelfishSociety.org" and go to the phenotype catalog under the "about Angels" tab. These are the the standards for what is what. There are many fish that are unrecognized crosses. Just for kicks, you should also go to the "original phenotype library" under that same tab. You will see a difference in what was to what is now for sure.

Wow, it's like someone who thought "wolf = dog" and then goes to the Westminster dog show.

That's got a lot of info, but someone needs to rearrange it so you can scroll through photos easier to match up what you have!

I didn't see one that looked quite like mine, though my guess one is either Smokey or Chocolate Black or somewhere in there, and one is like the Pearlscale.

 

[Andy Sager]

Wow, it's like someone who thought "wolf = dog" and then goes to the Westminster dog show.

That's got a lot of info, but someone needs to rearrange it so you can scroll through photos easier to match up what you have!

I didn't see one that looked quite like mine, though my guess one is either Smokey or Chocolate Black or somewhere in there, and one is like the Pearlscale.

That's just it. There has been so much interbreeding that you may have fish that are just mixed fish, no specific type. TAS is supposed to be THE final word on acceptable standards so if you have issues, you need to contact them. As I mentioned, if you look at the old library, there were a lot less varieties that were recognized as "true". Now, it's a maze. I may go back to calling the only "TRUE" Angelfish are wild Angelfish. lol

 

[Hobbiest]

OK Andy I guess I will start looking at profiles. I don't even know why I assumed that I apologize.

 

[Andy Sager]

OK Andy I guess I will start looking at profiles. I don't even know why I assumed that I apologize.

No harm done. I just gave the first time as a "benefit of the doubt" misspell but thought it time to correct.

 

[Linwood]

Continuing the photo story...

My tank is getting disgusting with slime and algae on the glass.

I put a couple of Nerites and 6 ranshorn snails in, hopefully they will help clean. Scrubbing isn't very effective as there's no good place for what I remove to go, it doesn't seem to settle to vacuum.

But the fry are growing and healthy. They are very skiddish, it is hard now to get a photo other than all the way through the tank:

Despite my best efforts, I have had only about 2 fry die, very early on. From the Wigglers thread, I would have expected the first spawn to have a lot of mortality. There's still a lot of runts in there, though.

Here's one of the larger (not largest - he hides too much) with a medium sized and smaller sized one. The black stripe in the background is an electric cord to the heater, for scale.

And a closeup of a medium sized one just if people want to see detail on development:

The majority are veiled. Not sure if the ones not veiled are just too small so far. I can start to see stripes developing on some.

Still feeding them brine shrimp mostly. I also put a bit of rotifers (need to get that bottle out of the fridge) and first-bytes between hatching groups. Someone pointed out that I'm doing the shrimp incorrectly -- I just leave it in water 24 hours with air, then dump the whole thing through a strainer, wash it, and put into the tank. I'm told I should be separating out the hatched from not-hatched eggs.

I guess they are eating a combination. But so far they are growing. I'm anxious for them to get a bit bigger and try feeding flakes. Or should I take some (probably higher quality) new life pellets and crush them?

 

[Hobbiest]

I use a juvenile fish food for mine all it really is, is crushed flake food. If you take a tiny strainer and strain your flake food in it a few times until all that's left is little specks of food they will be able to eat it. I am in the process of weaning mine off of that onto regular flaks now, but they are about two months old now.
If you switch I would do it gradually to make sure they are still eating. You should be able to see if they are taking to it or not. How old are the fry now? I also used crushed brine shrimp cubes with mine, it is easy to crush into tiny specs and they seemed to enjoy it.
I am not saying that this is the way your supposed to do it Just saying it worked for mine.
Fry look adorable

 

[Andy Sager]

Just an FYI: It's been reported that when the fry eat the brine shrimp egg shell, it doesn't get digested and can actually harm the fish. This may be why you are seeing a number of runts as they are not getting enough nutrition in what they are consuming. An easy way to get more shrimp and less shells is to darken the room or put a piece of dark paper around the hatchery and make a hole that is between the top and the bottom where you can shine a light through. The shrimp will be attracted to the light while the egg shells will fall to the bottom and the unhatched eggs will float to the top. Once the shrimp are clustered by the light, use a piece of airline tubing to siphon out the shrimp into a brine shrimp net that's setting on top of a container so that should any nuplii make it through the net, you will not lose them as they will be in the container. Once the shrimp are in the net, just rinse in FW and feed the fry. At that point, you can reuse the water for your next batch of shrimp. I generally get 3 days of hatches before I change water unless the water gets nasty and cloudy. That's a sign that more shrimp have died in the hatchery and are polluting the water.

Hope this helps

 

[Linwood]

Thanks, Andy. I'm up to #1270 in wigglers by the way.

One thing I have seen clearly is you don't want too small of a tank for grow out. What I haven't seen is a good guide for how to tell what big enough is.

In particular, I have about 25 fry. How big can they get before a 10 gallon is too small to be healthy and keep a good growth rate?

And when should I cull the runts? Wait a while? (So far none of them have obvious deformities, though I am unsure if I would be able to tell, but there are very clearly some itty bitty ones). I do not have another tank to grow the runts separately from the larger ones.

Is there a "3 gallons per cumulative inch" or some such sizing guideline?

 

[Tolak]

Here's a C&P of an angel stocking chart that I've used for years;

[FONT=&quot]I've used the following chart (off the internet) as a guide to my Minimum stocking rates.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Newly free swimming fry 40 fry per gallon
Two week old fry 20 fry per gallon
Month old fry 10 fry per gallon
Pea size bodies 3 fish per gallon
Dime size bodies 2 fish per gallon
Nickel size bodies 1 fish per gallon
Quarter size bodies 1 fish per 2 gallons
Silver Dollar size bodies 1 fish per 3 gallons
Potential breeders 1 fish per 5 gallons
Show Specimens 1 fish per 10 gallons
One breeding pair 20 gallon high tank[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]BBS tricks; forget the net, rubber band a cheap paper coffee filter to the top of a cheap plastic cup, pull the bbs out of the hatchery with a turkey baster after doing the light trick & squirt them into the filter, rinse with clean water then feed. For the shells on the surface, rub your fingers on your nose, touch the surface. All the shells go to the sides, nice big hole for the baster. Skin oil & surface tension trick.[/FONT] For light I just shine a clamp light on the side for about 5 minutes, this has worked fine for years. My fishroom has countless clamp lights, love those things.


As far as the shells, they're nothing to really worry about; Effects on Fish eating Artemia Shells

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks, Andy. I'm up to #1270 in wigglers by the way.

One thing I have seen clearly is you don't want too small of a tank for grow out. What I haven't seen is a good guide for how to tell what big enough is.

In particular, I have about 25 fry. How big can they get before a 10 gallon is too small to be healthy and keep a good growth rate?

And when should I cull the runts? Wait a while? (So far none of them have obvious deformities, though I am unsure if I would be able to tell, but there are very clearly some itty bitty ones). I do not have another tank to grow the runts separately from the larger ones.

Is there a "3 gallons per cumulative inch" or some such sizing guideline?

For starters, GREAT that you are still reading the Wigglers thread because I was just trying to find the post on there which has a link to a study of first foods for fry and their results to show Hobbiest. Flake foods were the lowest recommended foods for the fry. When you reach that post with the link, can you please PM me with it ( or the post number) or post the link in this thread. Thanks

As for the rest of your questions, there isn't really a protocol that I know of for moving fry other than saying that bigger is better. As soon as the fry are used to feeding and hunting for their food, they can be moved. Having said that, in your case, 25 fry, in a 10 gal, with a number of runts, shouldn't be much of an issue so I wouldn't be so concerned about moving them just yet. What I do is move 30 day old fry to 75- 100 gal tanks or pools as I usually need their 10 gal for the next spawn by their parents by then. For me, it doesn't matter if there are 25 fish or 250 fish, they would go into a big tank. ( The fish in the smaller quantity fish pools will just grow faster.) By that time, they are usually big enough to look like Angelfish and are growing well. I would usually cull deformed fish at that point. In your case, runts might be from lack of nutrition as I pointed out earlier. I would give yours a chance to get some good food into them before giving up on them and culling. Unless you see obvious deformities, I'd keep them. Once they have reached a point where their siblings have been removed and they still have stopped growing, then you can decide if you want to keep them ( as an oddity) or euthanize. I will say that at this point, if you still have any that are imitating Flounders ( swimming flat along the bottom) they should be culled as there is obviously some malady that is not fixable ( most likely a swim bladder disorder or disfigurement.) Until then, frequent water changes will be your best friend and help the fry grow and keep down some of the nutrients that are feeding your algae.

Hope this helps

 

[Andy Sager]

Here's a C&P of an angel stocking chart that I've used for years;

[FONT=&quot]I've used the following chart (off the internet) as a guide to my Minimum stocking rates.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Newly free swimming fry 40 fry per gallon
Two week old fry 20 fry per gallon
Month old fry 10 fry per gallon
Pea size bodies 3 fish per gallon
Dime size bodies 2 fish per gallon
Nickel size bodies 1 fish per gallon
Quarter size bodies 1 fish per 2 gallons
Silver Dollar size bodies 1 fish per 3 gallons
Potential breeders 1 fish per 5 gallons
Show Specimens 1 fish per 10 gallons
One breeding pair 20 gallon high tank[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]BBS tricks; forget the net, rubber band a cheap paper coffee filter to the top of a cheap plastic cup, pull the bbs out of the hatchery with a turkey baster after doing the light trick & squirt them into the filter, rinse with clean water then feed. For the shells on the surface, rub your fingers on your nose, touch the surface. All the shells go to the sides, nice big hole for the baster. Skin oil & surface tension trick.[/FONT] For light I just shine a clamp light on the side for about 5 minutes, this has worked fine for years. My fishroom has countless clamp lights, love those things.


As far as the shells, they're nothing to really worry about; Effects on Fish eating Artemia Shells

Wow, I shouldn't show you all what is going on in my hatcheries. It differs greatly from that formula But it doesn't hurt to have some guideline so that one is as good as any.

I saw that report of the eggshells before. It does bring out an important factor which is that the fry need to be fed quality foods or else, as in the case of full bellies of nothing but eggshells, the fry will actually be starving. The "harm" I have heard really goes more towards the shells taking up stomach space while not offering any nutritional value which is why they should be limited if not eliminated as much as possible. The second point was that they can cause intestinal blockage which, as pointed out in that article, might just be size dependent and not necessarily a blanket result for all fry.

As for the brine shrimp method, if it works for ya, keep at it I have to stick to the siphon method. I can't keep coffee filters around here. My roomie uses them for coffee when I'm not looking

 

[Tolak]

That guideline is pretty much a ballpark starting point. Folks on the same water supply doing the same thing a couple blocks away from each other can have differing results for a countless variety of reasons. As with many other things, once you get a feel for it you'll know when to spread things out a bit, or when it's reasonably safe to condense them.

I think the food displacement is the biggest factor with Steve's experiment. You also have to wonder if the runts aren't a bit slower to hit the food than others, which would mean they get more shells than the quicker fry. Either way, less shells are better, just from a tank cleanliness standpoint.

My fishroom is in the far back corner of the basement, my wife doesn't go looking in there for coffee filters. Thankfully she didn't look in there for the baster years ago, it got re-appropriated.