Bettas in bowls, is it cruel????

[Andy Sager]

Well I must say....

Thank you all for this spirited discussion. As was posted in an earlier post, "there are many opinions on the subject" and you all are entitled to yours. However, what has also come out is how uninformed a number of you are. (No offense intended.)

Let me quote my breeder's "Bible" about Bettas that was copywrited in 1971:

" For several hundred years the fish has been used locally for sporting purposes, and for more than 100 years it has been domesticated and cultivated. Cultivation has increased the size, improved the colors and enhanced the fighting qualities.
In a wild state the fighting fish is an inconspicuous, retiring little creature seeking protection from the glare of the sun and from fish eating birds by hiding beneath and among water plants.....The fish does not loiter at the surface where, in a wild state, it is exposed to attack by birds and other fish-eating animals.
Up to the year 1850 or thereabouts, the use of the fighting fish for sporting contests in Siam was confined to fishes obtained from open water; but, in order to insure a regular supply for fighting and betting purposes, domestication and cultivation were then instituted and have since been conducted on an increasingly large scale...."
The piece goes on to say regarding the fighting that "the 2 fish are put together in the same bowl..." and that the losing combatant " terminates his fighting career and sometimes his very existance because of his futile efforts to reach his adversary kept in a separate jar." (This is just a small portion of a 6 page discription of the history and breeding habits of the fish.)

People, these fish have been kept in BOWLS and JARS since the 1850s. You can call it cruel, you can call it insane, you can call it anyway you'd like. This fish, as we know it, was "made" to be kept in a bowl/ jar. In fact, if you have purchased a Betta that was imported from any country outside the US, and even some in the US, it was raised in a BOWL and like it or not, that's a fact. If it was healthy and you bought it, it got or was healthy in a bowl.

So my point from the very beginning of this thread was that you need to be more informed before judging the actions of your local pet store. If you think they are performing a cruel act on their animals, call P.E.T.A. (People for the ethical treatment of animals.) I'm sure they would like to know. HOWEVER, I can tell you, there are very few pet stores that P.E.T.A. could justifiably shut down. And I'm sure they all would have Bettas in bowls.

You all can feel free to discuss this as long as you like. I got what I intended and will no longer be posting to this thread.

Fish keeping can be a very informative and wonderful and educating experience. It has taken me to many parts of the world and has introduced me to many wonderful people. Do your homework, ask your questions, get informed. If you think you know it all, I guarantee you I know people who know more than you. It's not bragging when its the truth and I'm not bragging

Now I need to change some water in my Betta bowls

 

[Hobgob]

Thank you all for this spirited discussion. As was posted in an earlier post, "there are many opinions on the subject" and you all are entitled to yours. However, what has also come out is how uninformed a number of you are. (No offense intended.)

Let me quote my breeder's "Bible" about Bettas that was copywrited in 1971:

" For several hundred years the fish has been used locally for sporting purposes, and for more than 100 years it has been domesticated and cultivated. Cultivation has increased the size, improved the colors and enhanced the fighting qualities.
In a wild state the fighting fish is an inconspicuous, retiring little creature seeking protection from the glare of the sun and from fish eating birds by hiding beneath and among water plants.....The fish does not loiter at the surface where, in a wild state, it is exposed to attack by birds and other fish-eating animals.
Up to the year 1850 or thereabouts, the use of the fighting fish for sporting contests in Siam was confined to fishes obtained from open water; but, in order to insure a regular supply for fighting and betting purposes, domestication and cultivation were then instituted and have since been conducted on an increasingly large scale...."
The piece goes on to say regarding the fighting that "the 2 fish are put together in the same bowl..." and that the losing combatant " terminates his fighting career and sometimes his very existance because of his futile efforts to reach his adversary kept in a separate jar." (This is just a small portion of a 6 page discription of the history and breeding habits of the fish.)

People, these fish have been kept in BOWLS and JARS since the 1850s. You can call it cruel, you can call it insane, you can call it anyway you'd like. This fish, as we know it, was "made" to be kept in a bowl/ jar. In fact, if you have purchased a Betta that was imported from any country outside the US, and even some in the US, it was raised in a BOWL and like it or not, that's a fact. If it was healthy and you bought it, it got or was healthy in a bowl.

So my point from the very beginning of this thread was that you need to be more informed before judging the actions of your local pet store. If you think they are performing a cruel act on their animals, call P.E.T.A. (People for the ethical treatment of animals.) I'm sure they would like to know. HOWEVER, I can tell you, there are very few pet stores that P.E.T.A. could justifiably shut down. And I'm sure they all would have Bettas in bowls.

You all can feel free to discuss this as long as you like. I got what I intended and will no longer be posting to this thread.

Fish keeping can be a very informative and wonderful and educating experience. It has taken me to many parts of the world and has introduced me to many wonderful people. Do your homework, ask your questions, get informed. If you think you know it all, I guarantee you I know people who know more than you. It's not bragging when its the truth and I'm not bragging

Now I need to change some water in my Betta bowls

Hahaha your quoting a book even though you said a bunch of books have been wrong. Why cant this one? Bad resource.

 

[Cilantro]

Hahaha your quoting a book even though you said a bunch of books have been wrong. Why cant this one? Bad resource.

Yes he is using a book to show where he got his info from we are all here to listen and put in our opinion not to argue.
I believe they still do better in bigger tanks but I can see where you are coming from and yes they were bred like that but we can maybe give them a better home to live in

 

[2happyfish]

Thank you Andy. I think there are many who agree with you, but for fear of getting "flamed" wouldn't dare say so. {putting on my flame suit now}I have to agree with you.

 

[bruinsbro1997]

In a wild state the fighting fish is an inconspicuous, retiring little creature seeking protection from the glare of the sun and from fish eating birds by hiding beneath and among water plants.....The fish does not loiter at the surface where, in a wild state, it is exposed to attack by birds and other fish-eating animals.

I tend to use the height of the water as a guide. If you have a long shallow tank, that's a great setup for a betta (but not many other fish.) I tend to not keep my Bettas in anything over 5-6 inches of water.

HMM...let's think about this for a second.

There are literally no more bettas in rice paddies. If you had done your research, you would have found out that because of the widespread use of chemicals and such, bettas have moved out of rice paddies because it is a toxic environment.
So where are they now?

Streams and rivers. Where it is DEEP, and there is WATER FLOW. If you actually visit there you can see some in their wild habitat.

And, think. Even if there were bettas in rice paddies, they would still be deep rice paddies. As your book claimed, bettas need to live below the top level because they can be easy targets for birds. 5-6 inches or water is enough for the birds there to go down and peck them out of the water. It wouldn't be very logical to say that birds with 5-6 inch beaks can't catch fish that live in 5-6 inches of water. Especially because you claim they are not fast swimmers.

So my point from the very beginning of this thread was that you need to be more informed before judging the actions of your local pet store. If you think they are performing a cruel act on their animals, call P.E.T.A. (People for the ethical treatment of animals.) I'm sure they would like to know. HOWEVER, I can tell you, there are very few pet stores that P.E.T.A. could justifiably shut down. And I'm sure they all would have Bettas in bowls.

You should have probably done some research on PETA too, as they completely disagree with fish keeping and do not think we should be keeping fish in glass boxes altogether.

I have done my research. I have looked through it over and over again. I have kept bettas. And before you condone me for saying I have not done enough research, you should see what I have said and see if it makes any sense to you.

 

[Lovin Fish]

I don't know what is better for them...bowls or aquariums. They have been bred in captivity for so long that they have been bred to exist in small containers. It is the norm for this beautiful species.
BUT, I would just like to share a bit about my experience with my 3 bettas. Each came to me in their own bowl, two of which were 2.5 gallons and one was a 1.5 gallon. I moved each of them to a tank in my house. One went to a 5 gallon, one to a 30 gallon long and one to a 20 gallon tall. The 20 is 16.75" tall and the 30 is 18" tall.
One male betta got to try a spin in the 20 gallon community for about 6 weeks and he loved it! He swam up and down and across the length constantly. But, that tank became my daughters and she wanted her betta in it instead. So, he got moved to the 5 gallon tank with no other fish.The 5 gallon did NOT work because the filtration was too much in such a tiny space (the filter came with the tank set up bought at Walmart) The poor guy hid behind the heater just to avoid getting tossed about by the water flowing from the HOB filter. So I put him back in his 2.5 g bowl.
My daughters betta in the 20 gallon swims leisurely about the tank hitting ALL areas both heigth and length with no trouble at all most the day and rests in the broad leaves of the tall plants off and on. In his bowl he never moved from the substrate except for air and to eat. Often I thought he was dead. Now he is much more vibrant in color and personality. He got a long hair wrapped in his fins and I had to do mini surgery to get it off. Then he went back to the 2.5 gallon for a couple weeks just to monitor him. He seemed very depressed. Moved him back to the 20 and he was happy again.
My female betta was in the 1.5 gallon and she never moved either. I put her in the 30 gallon which does have some good water movement down the center of the tank. I chose her for this tank since her fins are much smaller. Well, at first she was very spooked and stayed near the heater for 2 days. She ventured out on day 3 and wow! Did she love it! She was racing across the length of the tank behind the current on the back side of the tank, then she'd "jump" into the current and take a ride. She did this over and over again! She still does it when she wants to play. If she didn't enjoy it, she wouldn't do it IMO. There are plenty of areas that don't have much movement because of how the decor and plants are set up. She really enjoys swimming across the length of the tank all day. She explores every knook and craney. It is adorable. When it's feeding time we have a program because she is not fast like the other fish. So, I drop some food in for everyone and hold some food in my hand (cupped) she swims inside my hand and eats. I love it! She enjoys being petted too. When she was in her bowl she was skittish whenever I put my hand over the top to feed her.

Please note, that all of their bowls had plants and gravel and remained around 76-78 degrees F; plus they were cleaned every 2 days. So are my tanks. No one sits around in their poo and pee in my house! Except for maybe the 3 pamper wearing babies LOL!
The two bettas in the tanks have become happy all-over fish and do wonderful in their communities socializing when they please and heading to their sanctuaries in the plants when they want some alone time. Putting them in the tanks has been an amazing experience to see how their personalities and activity levels sky-rocketed from when they were in the boring bowls.
I can't wait until I can put my other guy into a tank. It will be at least 6 month until he gets to "stretch" his fins because the tank is not set-up yet.

 

[Aski247]

I have to say I have no opinion on the topic of right or wrong as I have no desire to ever own a betta. But...

This has been a great read. And a lot of inciteful opinions. The way I see it poor fish keeping will always be poor fish keeping it don't matter if it's a bowl tank pond or bath tub... What I got from reading this post was it can be done both ways and it really comes down to "personal preference".

Thank you all for the info and opinions. Maybe one day I'll own a small tank or bowl... Who knows ; )

 

[Jason7894561230]

Im so confused....
Did the OP post about only keeping bettas in bowls and smaller tanks? Or the oposite?

 

[siva]

He referred to putting them in larger tanks as cruel, saying they were made to be bowls.

 

[siva]

People, these fish have been kept in BOWLS and JARS since the 1850s. You can call it cruel, you can call it insane, you can call it anyway you'd like. This fish, as we know it, was "made" to be kept in a bowl/ jar. In fact, if you have purchased a Betta that was imported from any country outside the US, and even some in the US, it was raised in a BOWL and like it or not, that's a fact. If it was healthy and you bought it, it got or was healthy in a bowl.

Personally I've taken no issue with your statements about bettas in bowls, only your statements about bettas in tanks.

I do not want betta husbandry advice from the 1850's or from the folks who bred these bettas for fighting. No thanks. I really don't understand that argument.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no debating whether or not bettas can be kept healthy in bowls until the point of sale. Right or wrong, they can be kept healthy. Those keeping said bettas should definitely want to keep them healthy, since they are in the business of making money off of them. I don't think this is a good argument for keeping them in bowls long term as pets.

So my point from the very beginning of this thread was that you need to be more informed before judging the actions of your local pet store. If you think they are performing a cruel act on their animals, call P.E.T.A. (People for the ethical treatment of animals.) I'm sure they would like to know.

Well I wouldn't be so sure about that, because PETA doesn't want to know. PETA's stance on fish and aquariums: "Fish in tanks?! No thanks!"
So no, PETA absolutely is not on our side here.

I can't say I've ever heard any judgement, on this forum anyway, directed at local pet stores who keep bettas in bowls of nice clean water, and isn't that what this is all about? How it's not the bowl that's cruel, but the water quality? I believe you said something earlier in the thread about calling them out on it and asking them to change out the water. I'm sure the vast majority of us, take issue with the water quality and awful condition we often find these fish in, and not as much the water volume.


Everything I've said is the truth. No misinformation here. But hey, atleast I won't condescend to others on simple matters of differing opinions and call them "misinformed".

 

[Lovin Fish]

I have to say I have no opinion on the topic of right or wrong as I have no desire to ever own a betta. But...

This has been a great read. And a lot of inciteful opinions. The way I see it poor fish keeping will always be poor fish keeping it don't matter if it's a bowl tank pond or bath tub... What I got from reading this post was it can be done both ways and it really comes down to "personal preference".

Thank you all for the info and opinions. Maybe one day I'll own a small tank or bowl... Who knows ; )

Well said! I completely agree with you!!!

 

[siva]

I don't know what is better for them...bowls or aquariums. They have been bred in captivity for so long that they have been bred to exist in small containers. It is the norm for this beautiful species.
BUT, I would just like to share a bit about my experience with my 3 bettas. Each came to me in their own bowl, two of which were 2.5 gallons and one was a 1.5 gallon. I moved each of them to a tank in my house. One went to a 5 gallon, one to a 30 gallon long and one to a 20 gallon tall. The 20 is 16.75" tall and the 30 is 18" tall.
One male betta got to try a spin in the 20 gallon community for about 6 weeks and he loved it! He swam up and down and across the length constantly. But, that tank became my daughters and she wanted her betta in it instead. So, he got moved to the 5 gallon tank with no other fish.The 5 gallon did NOT work because the filtration was too much in such a tiny space (the filter came with the tank set up bought at Walmart) The poor guy hid behind the heater just to avoid getting tossed about by the water flowing from the HOB filter. So I put him back in his 2.5 g bowl.
My daughters betta in the 20 gallon swims leisurely about the tank hitting ALL areas both heigth and length with no trouble at all most the day and rests in the broad leaves of the tall plants off and on. In his bowl he never moved from the substrate except for air and to eat. Often I thought he was dead. Now he is much more vibrant in color and personality. He got a long hair wrapped in his fins and I had to do mini surgery to get it off. Then he went back to the 2.5 gallon for a couple weeks just to monitor him. He seemed very depressed. Moved him back to the 20 and he was happy again.
My female betta was in the 1.5 gallon and she never moved either. I put her in the 30 gallon which does have some good water movement down the center of the tank. I chose her for this tank since her fins are much smaller. Well, at first she was very spooked and stayed near the heater for 2 days. She ventured out on day 3 and wow! Did she love it! She was racing across the length of the tank behind the current on the back side of the tank, then she'd "jump" into the current and take a ride. She did this over and over again! She still does it when she wants to play. If she didn't enjoy it, she wouldn't do it IMO. There are plenty of areas that don't have much movement because of how the decor and plants are set up. She really enjoys swimming across the length of the tank all day. She explores every knook and craney. It is adorable. When it's feeding time we have a program because she is not fast like the other fish. So, I drop some food in for everyone and hold some food in my hand (cupped) she swims inside my hand and eats. I love it! She enjoys being petted too. When she was in her bowl she was skittish whenever I put my hand over the top to feed her.

Please note, that all of their bowls had plants and gravel and remained around 76-78 degrees F; plus they were cleaned every 2 days. So are my tanks. No one sits around in their poo and pee in my house! Except for maybe the 3 pamper wearing babies LOL!
The two bettas in the tanks have become happy all-over fish and do wonderful in their communities socializing when they please and heading to their sanctuaries in the plants when they want some alone time. Putting them in the tanks has been an amazing experience to see how their personalities and activity levels sky-rocketed from when they were in the boring bowls.
I can't wait until I can put my other guy into a tank. It will be at least 6 month until he gets to "stretch" his fins because the tank is not set-up yet.

Hey Lovin Fish, bettas in smaller tanks are more likely to get knocked around by the filter, as there is less space to get away from the flow. I have serveral bettas in 5 gal tanks (from Walmart, with the AquaTech 5-10 filter) and this trick works great. Placing decor and tall plants strategically to break up the flow can also help. Filter Currents: A Betta's Worst Nightmare

 

[Lovin Fish]

Hey Lovin Fish, bettas in smaller tanks are more likely to get knocked around by the filter, as there is less space to get away from the flow. I have serveral bettas in 5 gal tanks (from Walmart, with the AquaTech 5-10 filter) and this trick works great. Placing decor and tall plants strategically to break up the flow can also help. Filter Currents: A Betta's Worst Nightmare

Thank you I will try that trick from the link. Maybe with some nano fish for the tank.
Yeah that's what I found out with my guy. I tried putting plants and even a rock in front of the filter output, but the tank is just too small for him to have anywhere to go. I could get a different filter, but I decided to just wait until I have the bigger tank set up. He will have more swimming room anyway. They do enjoy swimming . Current is a bettas worse nightmare if they can't get away from it. But, My female betta loves the current in her tank. I'd never try a male in a tank with a current like that. My girl plays in it. SO neat. When she's not interested in it she has the whole tank to swim in. She travels everywhere. No section is left without her passing through

 

[ocminpin]

Thank you I will try that trick from the link. Maybe with some nano fish for the tank.
Yeah that's what I found out with my guy. I tried putting plants and even a rock in front of the filter output, but the tank is just too small for him to have anywhere to go. I could get a different filter, but I decided to just wait until I have the bigger tank set up. He will have more swimming room anyway. They do enjoy swimming . Current is a bettas worse nightmare if they can't get away from it. But, My female betta loves the current in her tank. I'd never try a male in a tank with a current like that. My girl plays in it. SO neat. When she's not interested in it she has the whole tank to swim in. She travels everywhere. No section is left without her passing through

My betta swims in and out of the bubble wand... She discovered the bubbles first day and she went crazy going back n forth.... When it's off for feeding as soon as it's turned back on she's right back to the bubbles..
She makes long stretching swims across the tank and then turns looking at me following my finger..
She's a veiltail betta, so has shorter fins and has no problem swimming, where as the male crowntail I had wiggled more when he swam, where as my girl is smooth...

 

[Wy Renegade]

With every new mutation that happens to a fish like new colours, longer fins. Etc, there is a chance for a mutation that will not help the fish right?

Selective breeding, which is the process involved in breeding for desirable traits in a cultivated fish population is very different for the random mutations that occur in nature. What the OP is referencing here is selective breeding.

ALL dogs are a decendant of wolves. You can trace back every dog variety to the wolf. Today's dogs are a result of mankind's manipulation of the characteristics it wanted from a wolf and created an animal that fit it's needs. Some traits have been bred out of the genes and some not. You would never think of your pet pooch as a wolf or make it live like wolf and that's my point about Bettas. These are not the wild fish you are trying to keep. Demanding that they should be living like the wild ones is the same as keeping your pet toy whatever dog as a wolf.

Actually recent research shows that almost as many breeds are descended from foxes or inbreeding with foxes as wolves .

I have a problem with this - First off albino is a natural occuring thing, like in humans.
Second there is more than one type of angelfish living in south america, they have not been made to look different (except long fin varieties) but yes we have enhanced their colour to make them more appealing. But we havent changed their actual patterns and colours, these are natural in the wild and more than likely in the aquarium.
So...yeah
Nice post though

While albinoism does occur in nature, what the OP is trying to point is that they do not survive long term, because they stick out. Yes, you may see pictures of those individuals or even mounts of albino deer, buffalo, etc. But you seldom will see them for more than a year. Most cases where albinoism are very prevelate (like white rats) are because we have selective breed for that particular trait. Same in true in the aquarium industry - when you see albino fish, its because someone is breeding for that particular trait. Unfortunate in this particular case, because albino specimens have many issues and weakness beyond just a lack of pigmentation. Its is case of us actually selecting and breeding a inherit disease into these animals - hardly what is best for them.

The albino is nature. Look at all the wild animals. They even have albino squirrels and I am pretty sure man did make them.. And saying it wouldn't survive in the wild in not your say.

Hardly his say, its a long established fact in wildlife biology of any species.

 

[Lovin Fish]

My betta swims in and out of the bubble wand... She discovered the bubbles first day and she went crazy going back n forth.... When it's off for feeding as soon as it's turned back on she's right back to the bubbles..
She makes long stretching swims across the tank and then turns looking at me following my finger..
She's a veiltail betta, so has shorter fins and has no problem swimming, where as the male crowntail I had wiggled more when he swam, where as my girl is smooth...

Same with mine Both crowntail males wiggle when they swim. One of them has a hard time though. When I adopted him, he was in the process of recovering from severe fin rot. Poor guy. His beautiful fins will never grow back; at least that's what I've read. I think it's because of his ragged fins he can not swim as good as the others, even though now his fins are "shorter" then the other male. But, he still does go for the bubbles! Your betta likes bubbles, all 3 of mine like bubbles...that concludes it! Bettas LOVE bubbles and swimming!!!

 

[ocminpin]

But, he still does go for the bubbles! Your betta likes bubbles, all 3 of mine like bubbles...that concludes it! Bettas LOVE bubbles and swimming!!!

LOL LOL!!

Here's the princess now, checking out 2 acclimating Otos.. asking them "WHY did you make my bubbles go off??!"

 

[Lovin Fish]

LOL LOL!!

Here's the princess now, checking out 2 acclimating Otos.. asking them "WHY did you make my bubbles go off??!"

View attachment 79813

Oh wow she's GORGEOUS!!!!!! I love her!!!! I need to get some pics of mine racing in and out of the current...actually a video would be better...

 

[Wy Renegade]

Thread has run its course and is now closed.