Critical need: inverted 4" Fancy Goldfish

[tanz8anz]

I can so relate to the wanting to scream its just a fish it is hard to explain cause smehow these little fish seem to find a way into your heart so it feels the same is having.to have your dog or cat put to sleep.. we had to do it with one of angels it was awful she was very much alive but couldnt.swim her fins almost seemed to have melted away over night and she would swim but with much difficult and.would just land.back on.the bottom my husband stood with his hand in the tank for hours holding.her off the gravel while we tossed up what to do.. ee had had a ph crash in.the tank and all of the other fish had died the day before but the 2 angels seemed find and.then.the next morning she was like that her mate was fine and.we still have him now..

So.can fully sympathise with how your feeling

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[pip walters]

One last word on salt.

When I was a kid, I had a goldfish that I found one day lying on its side in its small tank, bent over, but still alive. I knew nothing then of fish physiology or diseases. I don't recall where or when I had deard of using salt, but I put the fish into one of my mums pryex pudding bowls in...... wait for it....... tap water and added an unmeasured amount of.... second bombshell..... table salt. Before long, the fish was swimming upright and I placed him back in his unfiltere plastic aquarium (I know. I was a kid and no one cared much about goldfish in those days).

I 'cured' that fish in this way 3 or 4 times during its lifetime.

Give salt a try, you don't seem to have anything to lose now. Try a dip of 15g per litre for 10 to 15 minutes. If it doesn't work, try it daily for a few days before you make the final decision on euthanasia.

Benzocaine in liquid form is available as a product called MS222. Not sure of the licensing of it in your part of the world, nor its availability. In powder form it needs to be dissolved in acetone (40g benzo in a litre of acetone) before being added to the water. In powder form it is also used as a cutting agent for cocaine, so again, not sure about legal use in your part of the world! If you use benzo, leave the fish in the anaesthetic for at least an hour to be sure.

Let me know how you get on.

 

[mapexmac007]

Pip, you've given us hope over here!! I literally just did the weekly 34% WC — and regretfully, dumped the "waste" water into our rose bushes... It would have been nice to use THAT water for her salt bath.

I've got proper aquarium salt of course, and will give her a go in the salt water later this evening. We've got a 1-gallon plastic fish "bowl" (spherical) which we bought over a year ago (for isolated mushed pea feedings — in a previous bout of swim bladder problems).

I'll pull a bit of water from her main tank, add the salt, and give her a 10-15 minute bath. We'll do this daily until we see some improvement.

On the benzocaine — after researching it for about an hour today, I've learned it's basically off the market here in the States. If need be, we'll use the near-ice water dip as our alternative to benzocaine. I'm not sure about the clove oil solution, but that's a back-up to the ice water bath.

 

[tanz8anz]

Is she in cold water? The ice dip may backfire on cold water fish from.my understanding.. it worked a treat for our angel i still felt misrable doing so but she was gone instantly

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[mapexmac007]

Tanz,
No, she's still in the 29 gal tank. We are going to try the daily 15 minute salt baths suggested by Pip.

If/when the time comes, we'll put her down using the ice bath - with the understanding that the water must be nearly slush. Knowing carp like cold water, it has been suggested that we use clove oil instead. If I can find some clove oil, we may opt for that method.

Obviously, we'd rather her be cured and back to normal buoyancy!

 

[tanz8anz]

Yea i would b trying the salt baths too first cause u never no she may come right

I do hope it all comes right for you and you dont have to come to clove oil or ice

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[pip walters]

I would still try the shallow water method n a separate container. Just change the water daily with water from the main tank. Used a fixed amount, say three litres and keep the salt at three grams per litre to aid osmoregulation. Add an airstone or oxygen tablets.

If it does come to the worst, clove oil is the way to go. You would be amazed at the drop in temperature a goldfish can survive.

 

[pip walters]

Check out argent-labs com for MS222 anaesthetic.

 

[mapexmac007]

OK Pip, first treatment done - a 10 minute soak in 3/4 gallon with 6 teaspoons of salt. That converts to approx. 30grams for 2 litres. I'll increase her soak time to 15 minutes tomorrow and during each subsequent soak.

We'll keep this up for 7 days. She was quite peaceful in the salt soak, no panic breathing, no signs of stress. I held my hand in there - to gently keep her upright.

Stay tuned. Thanks again for the tip!

 

[Patty1980]

You are a good fish parent

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[jlk]

Check out argent-labs com for MS222 anaesthetic.

This is the brand company that makes MS-222 (branded name, Finquel). Its also available generically through many other companies at a lower price. Clove oil (also known as eugenol, the active ingredient) is commonly available at almost any drugstore or chain store in the toothache remedy/care aisle for under $10 for a small bottle. If you are unsure, ask the pharmacist and they point you to the specific products. Health food and nutrition stores will also carry it.

 

[pip walters]

Any improvement?

 

[mapexmac007]

Hi Pip,

Thanks for checking-in. She's nose-up and not on her side ALL of the time, and her tail is still mostly on the bottom of the tank. She seems to have figured out a means to stay upright, basically, resting herself against the side of the tank, in-between the glass and a plant.

I see this as a tremendous improvement; the 15-20 minute soak/salt baths treatment have been extremely beneficial.

Occasionally, she takes to a brief, arc, swimming up to the top, maybe swimming a sideways circle or two, before gently settling back to the bottom.

Also, I've noticed a dark gray ring around the base of her left eye, and it's popping ever so slightly out further than it should. This isn't good, and suggests another parasitic issue.

I've removed the charcoal element from my Fluval 206, and treated the 29 gallons with 1 1/2 teaspoons of PraziPro, which is the recommended dose.

Also, I've established a 10 gallon rehab tank for her, the tank is cycling at the moment, nothing in there at all, no gravel, no decoration, no plants. The filter is an HOB Aqueon but I'm not using the ready-made filter element with it. I've wrapped a bunch of polyester poly-fill around an element of the filter, and filled the main compartment with ceramic bio-mech. I'll transfer her into this tank later this evening. She should have some kind of a shelter to be near, I'm going to use a coffee mug or two on their sides - as a make-shift reef for her to feel secure around.

Both tanks have been treated/conditioned with Prime and I've been doing 40% WCs on the 29 gal tank every 6-7 days. The 10 gal tank was just set-up today. Once she gets added, I'll begin low-doses of salt in that rehab tank.

I have a T.C. Tetracycline (by API) and I've got some Seachem "Metronidazole" at my disposal, but I don't know if either of these are good to treat her swim bladder issue. I am quite concerned about this slight popeye issue now.

I just don't know where all of these maladies are coming from...

Oh, one last detail: during today's 40% WC, I did a thorough Fluval clean-out (except for rinsing the bio-mech). This included taking the intake and return-feed hoses into the sink, and rinsing-out a huge amount of built-up brown algae-like scum which has accumulated inside those hoses for the past 5 months!!!! Lord only knows what bad bacteria were living in that stuff. OMG!

Once I restarted the Fluval, WOW!!!! I had such an AMAZING increase in flow rate, it was like I'd purchased a new filter, one with twice the capacity of what I'd had prior to this extensive clean-out. Those hoses were disgustingly clogged.

 

[mapexmac007]

Hey Pip,

Question for you, regarding the salt baths...

How many times in a 24 hours period can this bath procedure be done?

She's been getting the salt baths now, almost daily. I've missed a few days here and there, due to some complications with my work schedule (I know, that's bad, but sometimes life gets in the way...)

She seems to respond really well to the baths, which got me wondering, would is be helpful or harmful to give her a salt water bath, twice a day — say, 12 hours apart?

Your thoughts please! Thanks!!

 

[pip walters]

Hi
When you say responding well, how exactly ks sheresponding and how long does the effect last?

Personally, I wouldn't do it every day. Is she in a separate container now? It would be better to have her seperate with salt added to maintain the 0.3% level (3 g/L) if at all possible. This will enable a balanced osmoregulation, which reduces stress overall.

 

[mapexmac007]

Hi Pip,
Improved results are seen in that she can more often be able to swim off the bottom, usually straight up to the surface. She can't stay there for any length of time though, and she gently drops back to the bottom. But she does this many times throughout the day, whereas in weeks prior, she didn't do this all, remaining sedentary at the tanks's bottom.

So, I see this recent activity as an improvement, and signs of a recovery, albeit a slow process.

She is in her own 10 gallon tank now - a rehab environment - no gravel, no plants. I have two ceramic coffee cup in there to offer her some form of shelter. It's filtered (an HOB Aqueon filter) and aerated too of course.

I change that water 100% every four days. For the salt baths, I was taking her out of that tank, and putting her into a small 1 gallon fish bowl, for 20 minutes, in the 3% salt bath you recommended.

It sounds like you're recommending that I make her 10 gallon environment a 3% salt environment, and leave her in that 24/7. Is this correct?

 

[pip walters]

Hi, that is good to hear.

Yes, keep her whole tank at 3%. That way, her normal osmotic processes are maintained during this stressful time.

When you say you change 100% water every 4 days, do you mean you change it all in one go or 25% per day? I would recommend the latter. It may also be beneficial to now try the shallower water approach I talked about before.... maybe run the tank at half full if possible? It will be less effort then for her regular trips to the surface.

 

[mapexmac007]

Hi Pip,

I was changing-out all 10 gallons in one pop. I won't do that any more. I'll change-out 25% each day, and strive for that 3% salt balance.

As for her diet, it's mushed frozen peas one day, minced spinach the next, and frozen brine shrimp the third. One feeding per day.

As for water levels, it's a standard-issue kid's starter 10 gallon rectangular tank, so if I go with 4 gallons, that puts about 4 inches of water over her head. Any more shallow than that and she'll have insufficient water with which to swim to the surface —*whenever she tries those maneuvers (which is several times throughout the day). She is about 4.5" nose to anus (~11.5 cm)

I'll have a challenging time keeping the water filtered through the HOB "Aqueon 10", but with so little tank volume, and daily 25% changes, maybe all she needs in there is an air stone??? What do you think?

Thank you so much Pip, for sticking with me on this one!! My family greatly appreciates the advice/help for our loved pet!

 

[pip walters]

Yeah, even the reduction to 4 " above her may help. What we are trying to do is reduce the external pressure on the her body, which should reduce the effort required to inflate her swim bladder. (Imagine trying to inflate an air bed whilst your big fat uncle was already lying on it ...... I make no reference to any real person here, and apologise to any big fat uncles that may read this, lol!)

As you are performing regular daily water changes and you are not feeding heavily, then you could just make do with an airstone, or maybe an air driven sponge filter.

With regard to food, I would try and get a little more protein into her now to build her strength.... peas and spinach are fine as roughage, but there is little goodness in brine shrimp. Frozen bloodworm and daphnia would be better and try her on quality pelleted food again. Earthworms are also a fine fish food with high quality, easily digested protein.

I am happy to help and I am glad you are giving the fish a chance. And to think there was talk of euthanasia at the beginning!

 

[mapexmac007]

Pip, Jlk,

I know this thread is so old, and quite possibly you've forgotten about this situation. I felt it important to provide a final update - not happy news.

We finally euthanized our fancy goodie "Rarity" — just last week.

After trying patiently to rehab her for months — as you're both well aware — she showed NO signs of regaining buoyancy, none whatsoever. What's worse, she would develop ick with almost every WC. Her immune system was so compromised and she was terminally bottom-ridden. It was time to call it quits.

After having "that" talk with our daughter, we (as a family) made the decision to put her down.

I found some clove oil (GNC - $9.50/bottle) and added two teaspoons to approximately 3/4 gallon of water in a 1 gal. fish bowl. I agitated the water, stirring aggressively to throughly mix the oil and water (it did turn a milky white).

We each touched her briefly, caressing her, saying our goodbyes — and I finally scooped her into my hand, and transferred her into the bowl.

She was gone within 4-5 seconds; it was that quick. She didn't show ANY signs of duress, no struggles breathing, no panic swimming, no spasm movements; she just slipped away. We left her in the bowl for about 15 minutes, then transferred her into a bag and into our freezer overnight, to be 100% certain before burying her in our backyard next to a rosebush.

Thank you guys, for ALL the help and advice you offered. If I knew then what I know now (water chem tests, feeding, over-stocked tank, etc) she likely wouldn't have had the problems she had.