My 40b fishless cycle log!

[FishN00b83]

Hahaha! Geez man, honestly I don't know what to tell you. All I know is that substrate better be freaking awesome for your plants, lol. If you're sticking with fishless, I'd probably dose small levels no higher than1-2ppm. Hopefully that can calm this manic conversion and try to steady things out so we can at least get a handle on it. What's funny is I've never heard of Eco-complete doing things like this, then in the last week we've got at least 2-3 people dealing with it. I wonder if it's some new formula they're using?

It did say something about "new and improved" on the bag, I didnt think anything of it though.

 

[eco23]

I'm thinking along the lines that they're packing it more full of heterotrophs. The "new and improved" sticker might be something worth an email.

 

[FishN00b83]

Im going to call them im the morning. I really want to kill these heterotrophs!

 

[jetajockey]

I'm thinking along the lines that they're packing it more full of heterotrophs. The "new and improved" sticker might be something worth an email.

I totally skipped over the first part of your question.

Heterotrophs do not outcompete autotrophs, that much is known. Caribsea is likely to say the same thing.

The problem with heterotrophs is that they give the appearance of a stable biofilter because they do some conversion but they don't sustain themselves over a long period of time and die off.

In most cases I've heard of, the autotrophic bacteria colony hasn't even really been established yet, so it's not like you had a good established tank, dump in a bottle of nutrafin cycle, and 2 weeks later the tank crashes.

I'm not sure why the autotrophs and heterotrophs could not coexist for a short period of time, as long as there is space for them to colonize and a food source, why not?

If anything, the autotrophs would eventually outcompete the heterotrophs since they are extremely more efficient and nitrification, it just takes a very long time because they reproduce much much slower.

 

[eco23]

I totally skipped over the first part of your question.

Heterotrophs do not outcompete autotrophs, that much is known. Caribsea is likely to say the same thing.

The problem with heterotrophs is that they give the appearance of a stable biofilter because they do some conversion but they don't sustain themselves over a long period of time and die off.

In most cases I've heard of, the autotrophic bacteria colony hasn't even really been established yet, so it's not like you had a good established tank, dump in a bottle of nutrafin cycle, and 2 weeks later the tank crashes.

I'm not sure why the autotrophs and heterotrophs could not coexist for a short period of time, as long as there is space for them to colonize and a food source, why not?

If anything, the autotrophs would eventually outcompete the heterotrophs since they are extremely more efficient and nitrification, it just takes a very long time because they reproduce much much slower.

Okay, I was a bit confused by the first response, since if the tank is not heavily planted the same concept would apply in my logic. The "appearance of a stable biofilter" which can potentially crash is what my concern is. I mean, this particular tank looks like it can do a fishless cycle at 4ppm in a week or two, and if it was considered cycled and then stocked fairly heavily, it's asking for trouble when those heterotrophs start kicking off, since the true nitrifiers haven't had time to fully colonize (even assuming they're not being outcompeted). One of my first posts in this thread was advising to stock lightly and slowly at first, simply because I have very little faith in this particular biofilter being developed.

 

[FishN00b83]

If I do stock slowly at this point, and the tank acts the same. Wont the nitrite spikes kill the fish? The tank doesnt seem stable on any level right now, and I dont know what I can do to get it back to a normal situation. Anyone have any ideas?

 

[eco23]

If I do stock slowly at this point, and the tank acts the same. Wont the nitrite spikes kill the fish? The tank doesnt seem stable on any level right now, and I dont know what I can do to get it back to a normal situation. Anyone have any ideas?

One way or the other...I'd wait until the ammonia and no2 zero out. Whether that means continuing the fishless cycle, or discontinuing the ammonia dosage is up to you. I'd be stocking very conservatively at first regardless of what you choose.

 

[FishN00b83]

I guess I'll wait and see what happens in the morning. If I would have known Eco-Complete was going to cause problems like this, I would of bought a different substrate. This is just crazy...

 

[eco23]

I guess I'll wait and see what happens in the morning. If I would have known Eco-Complete was going to cause problems like this, I would of bought a different substrate. This is just crazy...

I've worked with probably a dozen people on my guide who used Eco-complete including a good friend of mine. Not a single one of them had anything remotely similar to what a couple of you guys are experiencing these last couple weeks. I'd be almost certain something has changed.

 

[jetajockey]

Ecocomplete doesn't cause problems typically, but then again it's not typically used to fishless cycle with either.

A planted tank (as in, a tank with lots of plants, good lighting, etc) is a totally different creature than a non-planted tank.

If you do decide to go fish-in at this point, as eco said, make for certain that the ammonia and nitrite levels are completely 0 before you begin. If you stock lightly and slowly, you won't have massive toxin readings like you are having now. Those massive nitrite readings are something that happens particularly with fishless cycles because there is such a large amount being added into the tank. In a fish-in cycle, if done correctly, the toxin level rises very gradually, so usually by the time the ammonia => nitrite bacteria have started to do their job, it won't be long before the nitrite => nitrate bacteria start doing theirs as well.

The reason why this isn't very important in a planted tank is because the plants will suck up the nitrogenous waste being produced by the fish, so cycling isn't even a major concern, as long as the plants are happy and healthy, everything will be kosher.

 

[eco23]

Ecocomplete doesn't cause problems typically, but then again it's not typically used to fishless cycle with either.

A planted tank (as in, a tank with lots of plants, good lighting, etc) is a totally different creature than a non-planted tank.

If you do decide to go fish-in at this point, as eco said, make for certain that the ammonia and nitrite levels are completely 0 before you begin. If you stock lightly and slowly, you won't have massive toxin readings like you are having now. Those massive nitrite readings are something that happens particularly with fishless cycles because there is such a large amount being added into the tank. In a fish-in cycle, if done correctly, the toxin level rises very gradually, so usually by the time the ammonia => nitrite bacteria have started to do their job, it won't be long before the nitrite => nitrate bacteria start doing theirs as well.

The reason why this isn't very important in a planted tank is because the plants will suck up the nitrogenous waste being produced by the fish, so cycling isn't even a major concern, as long as the plants are happy and healthy, everything will be kosher.

+1 on that. I don't really have anything to add. The way you've got conversion happening, I'd personally add a few fish when this thing zeroes out. Obviously keep a very close eye on toxin levels and have a bucket and Prime on standby just in case. I assume the tank will be well planted based off the substrate you chose?

On that note, I'm heading off. We just had a nasty aftershock (I'm 20 miles from the epicenter of the one on Tuesday) and I had to save my plasma twice in the last 2 days, lol. A couple things fell off tables, but luckily 20 gallons of water didn't slosh out my tank this time

 

[FishN00b83]

Ecocomplete doesn't cause problems typically, but then again it's not typically used to fishless cycle with either.

A planted tank (as in, a tank with lots of plants, good lighting, etc) is a totally different creature than a non-planted tank.

If you do decide to go fish-in at this point, as eco said, make for certain that the ammonia and nitrite levels are completely 0 before you begin. If you stock lightly and slowly, you won't have massive toxin readings like you are having now. Those massive nitrite readings are something that happens particularly with fishless cycles because there is such a large amount being added into the tank. In a fish-in cycle, if done correctly, the toxin level rises very gradually, so usually by the time the ammonia => nitrite bacteria have started to do their job, it won't be long before the nitrite => nitrate bacteria start doing theirs as well.

The reason why this isn't very important in a planted tank is because the plants will suck up the nitrogenous waste being produced by the fish, so cycling isn't even a major concern, as long as the plants are happy and healthy, everything will be kosher.

My plants should be here sometime today, so I will empty the tank, plant everything and fill it back up. Hopefully my levels go down, my pH gets back to a some what normal situation, and I guess I'll give a 1ppm of ammonia a shot. It will be another week before I can buy some fish, so I guess trying the fishless until then isnt going to hurt. Thanks for you help!

+1 on that. I don't really have anything to add. The way you've got conversion happening, I'd personally add a few fish when this thing zeroes out. Obviously keep a very close eye on toxin levels and have a bucket and Prime on standby just in case. I assume the tank will be well planted based off the substrate you chose?

On that note, I'm heading off. We just had a nasty aftershock (I'm 20 miles from the epicenter of the one on Tuesday) and I had to save my plasma twice in the last 2 days, lol. A couple things fell off tables, but luckily 20 gallons of water didn't slosh out my tank this time

Eco, I appreciate the help. I will keep updating the thread with what's going on, hopefully things go a lot better when the plants are in the tank. I guess we'll just have to wait and see

 

[FishN00b83]

How is this possible?!! I just did a 100% water change, and my nitrites are still through the roof?!! My nitrates are still around 30??

100% water change round 2, if this doesnt get them down, idk what else to do.

 

[jetajockey]

Could be residual in the substrate, but yeah that means you had a ton of nitrites in there lol. It'll go down with the next water change, I'm sure it went down with this water change, if you left the substrate in, it has a substantial amount of water in it also, so you can't expect it to be a complete reset.

 

[FishN00b83]

Could be residual in the substrate, but yeah that means you had a ton of nitrites in there lol. It'll go down with the next water change, I'm sure it went down with this water change, if you left the substrate in, it has a substantial amount of water in it also, so you can't expect it to be a complete reset.

LOL I would LOVE a complete reset right now. Only if aquariums were like the original Nintendo...

 

[FishN00b83]

OK, so after another HUGE water change, my levels are all back to 0..Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0. I just called and the plants are supposed to get here tomorrow. So what should I do in the meantime?

 

[jetajockey]

If you plan to keep going fishless you might as well dose again. If you are switching to fish-in then it's time to figure out what you want to put in it initially.

 

[FishN00b83]

I'm not going to be able to buy fish for at least another week. Should I just try to dose 1ppm of ammonia in stead of 4?

UPDATE: I just added 1.5 tsps which should come out to 1ppm. I'm assuming this is going to drop really fast (I was dropping 4ppm to 0 in less then 24 hours). Should I dose back up to 1ppm (after it goes to 0), or should I wait for the nitrites to 0 out before adding more?

 

[jetajockey]

Maybe eco will answer that.

I don't fishless cycle anything so my suggestions in that area are speculation based on what I know about the way the nitrogen cycle works rather than actual experience.

 

[eco23]

I'm not going to be able to buy fish for at least another week. Should I just try to dose 1ppm of ammonia in stead of 4?

UPDATE: I just added 1.5 tsps which should come out to 1ppm. I'm assuming this is going to drop really fast (I was dropping 4ppm to 0 in less then 24 hours). Should I dose back up to 1ppm (after it goes to 0), or should I wait for the nitrites to 0 out before adding more?

Sorry, power has been out here in VA for the last 10 hrs. Based on your particular situation and time frame, I'd personally dose ~1ppm (2ppm tops) every 24 hrs. I'd assume by the time you're ready to stock it'll be zeroing out ammo and no2 every day, and I go ahead and stock lightly at that point.