My 40b fishless cycle log!

[eco23]

I do water changes with extremely soft water into aragonite substrate tanks all the time without any problem, so I've never experienced specifics of that potential danger of unaltered tap water into a buffered tank, apart from just hearing people warn against it.

I've never experienced problems either (although I have the tiniest amount in there), but the way I look at it is the entire reason we acclimate fish instead of just dropping them into a new tank is to adjust them to the different pH, GH and kH then they were previously in (temp too obviously...and maybe no3 levels?). Either way, I can't imagine sudden fluctuations of soft water into heavily buffered water is gonna be good for any fish. JMO...and educated guess.

 

[jetajockey]

There is a lot of folklore around acclimation procedures. Everyone repeats the pH shock mantra but most probably don't know anything about it other than what they were told.

The argument isn't whether it's good for them, but just exactly how bad, if at all, it is for them.

I've had more issues acclimating fish from one tank to another with a wide variance of TDS. 95% of the fish I bring in are temp match by adding some tank water over a few minutes and put them in. There are a few exceptions, but it's definitely the exception rather than the rule.

Either way, if the pH shock thing were a real issue, don't you think people would be stressing the heck out of their fish if they are doing large PWC's from a soft water source? I mean how would one prepare 'hard' water for a tank anyhow?

 

[eco23]

There is a lot of folklore around acclimation procedures. Everyone repeats the pH shock mantra but most probably don't know anything about it other than what they were told.

The argument isn't whether it's good for them, but just exactly how bad, if at all, it is for them.

I've had more issues acclimating fish from one tank to another with a wide variance of TDS.

Either way, if the pH shock thing were a real issue, don't you think people would be stressing the heck out of their fish if they are doing large PWC's from a soft water source? I mean how would one prepare 'hard' water for a tank anyhow?

Preparing it with buffering powders like it was SW, or somehow running the water through a filter with CC in it if you were trying to raise it? (I know at least one person who does that). For softening it there's obviously tools like RO/DI (again, more of a SW thing) I couldn't tell you a one size fits all solution.

I admit I don't know HOW bad it is...but my understanding is that one of the general rules of fish keeping is that they like stability..not fluctuating parameters. It may be an overrated aspect...but I assume you wouldn't just net a fish out of a aragonite sand substrate tank, and suddenly plop them into one of your soft water tanks without acclimating them? And especially doing something similar at least weekly with pwc's. Even if you did and didn't see problems...who can say if and what any longer term effects can be.

I don't have any sources to back this up (and I assume you don't have any that show sudden and dramatic pH, kH and GH fluctuations have no potential negative consequences)...but I still stand behind the fact that the stability vs fluctuation argument is valid and common sense... in my mind at least.

*After your edit...we're pretty much on the same page.

 

[jetajockey]

We are on the same page if you are talking about GH/KH (TDS) and not pH. Ask anyone with pressurized co2 about pH fluctuations.

It's not that there isn't a concern to be had, it's just not defined very well.

That whole osmoregulation bit is based on TDS, a big change of TDS (higher to lower esp) can cause the stress that is often attributed to disease or ph shock.

here's a good read.

pH Shock????........Modern Tropical Fish Bytes

 

[eco23]

We are on the same page if you are talking about GH/KH (TDS) and not pH. Ask anyone with pressurized co2 about pH fluctuations.

Right . That's why I made the point since the topic is substrates that buffer the water. In that case I think the pH is more of an indication of the GH and KH...it's not number of the pH itself being the issue.

 

[FishN00b83]

Caribsea finally called me back (just now), and this is what they told me.

The bacteria in Eco-Complete is to give the option of putting fish in the tank day 1. He said it's very safe to lightly stock your tank if you have live plants to go along with it. The bacteria in the bag helps the conversion process WITH plants in the tank. Being that I am doing a fishless cycle dosing a very high amount of ammonia from day 1, I am getting off the chart readings. He said I can do 1 of 2 things.

The first thing would be to put some plants in the tank, add a small amount of ammonia, and let it sit for a few days. Once the tank settles itself, he said I can put a few fish in and slowly stock from there.

The second would be to continue what I am doing now, and in a few days I should see some nitrtie reduction. He said that the heterotrophic bateria wouldnt really inhibit the nitrification process, and if anything would help it along (if a few plants are present).

 

[jetajockey]

I don't think the heterotrophs would inhibit the autotrophs either, they would compete for a while, but the autotrophs would eventually outcompete them because they are more efficient.

FWIW, in the tanks I've put ecocomplete in, I planted and stocked them with fish the same day, never saw a toxin spike at all, ever.

 

[FishN00b83]

Yeah, I've herd a few other people say the same thing. Being that I'm right in the middle of a fishless cycle anyway, I might as well finish it up. The plants are going to get here hopefully this week, so everything will be ready to go. I just wan to see how much room I'm going to have after all the plants are put in. Then I just need 2 weeks to save up and figure out what to stock the tank with.

 

[FishN00b83]

The Ammonia has been dropping VERY fast for the past 2 days, but nothing else is happening (4ppm in 24 hours). I feel like the tank is just building up a very high level of Nitrites and Nitrates. The Nitrites have been 5+ for a while and the Nitrates are 80+ now. Is this a normal part of the cycle? Should I need to worry about the Nitrites and Nitrates getting to a "stalling" level?

 

[librarygirl]

The Ammonia has been dropping VERY fast for the past 2 days, but nothing else is happening (4ppm in 24 hours). I feel like the tank is just building up a very high level of Nitrites and Nitrates. The Nitrites have been 5+ for a while and the Nitrates are 80+ now. Is this a normal part of the cycle? Should I need to worry about the Nitrites and Nitrates getting to a "stalling" level?

Completely normal. Looking back at the thread, your nitrites hit 5 only a few days ago, so I would say you are OK. Just let things ride and see what happens for another few days (unless Eco comes and says something different; then listen to him ).

 

[eco23]

Eco-complete(ly) doesn't know . This substrate is somewhat of a mystery to me.

Water changes are great during any type of cycle. They're just not necessary to constantly do in a normal situation...that completely defeats the purpose of the "fishless" aspect IMO.

In your situation I'd do them more than normal, simply because you've got such sky rocketing levels and you can't expect things to go exactly by the book.

Question for jeta...if small bottles of cycling products containing heterotrophs have been proven to cause bio-filter crashes by outcompeting the true nitrifiers then dying off...why do you feel it's less of a concern in this situation? My initial thought would be that since the substrate is obviously absolutely loaded with heterotrophs compared to the bottled stuff...wouldn't that cause even more of a risk because there's already so much of it, doing so much conversion that the autotrophs haven't even got a chance at least for a significant amount of time? Is your thought based on the fact that the OP doesn't plan on stocking for a few weeks? Are you anticipating the heterotrophs dying off in that time and the others gaining a foothold?

 

[FishN00b83]

Well I'm going to get as much of the water out as I can, and see what happens. I'm also planting all the plants as soon as they get here, and hopefully that helps this whole situation. It just bothers me that after I do these huge WCs my Nitrites are still high.

I guess I'll do the change now, redo the ammonia, and wait a day.

 

[FishN00b83]

After the 100% water change, this is what I got.

pH - ~7
Ammonia - <.25
Nitrites - .5 - 1
Nitrates - ~10

I'm going to dose the ammonia to 4ppm and watch the sh!t show unfold

 

[FishN00b83]

Day 14

pH - <7 (I can never really tell, all the colors are close together.
Ammonia - 0 (I redosed up to 4)
Nitrites - 2 or 5
Nitrates - 10 - 20

I woke up and tested the water and found out that my ammonia has dropped to 0 in a few hours. I redosed 4ppm around 430pm yesterday and already it has dropped to 0

The plants should be here tomorrow or Friday. I'm going to keep dosing the ammonia to 4ppm and I think I'm going to skip these water changes for a few days. Is it possible that I'm at the Nitrite spike part of the cycle?

 

[FishN00b83]

OK I just tested the tank and I got problems lol

pH <6
ammonia 0
Nitrite 5+ I cant really tell
Nitrate 20

What the **** is going on here?

I just added a little more then 1/2 a tablespoon of baking soda, its kinda late and I cant be running around with buckets right now lol

I redosed the ammonia back to 4 while I was at it. What is going on here?

 

[eco23]

OK I just tested the tank and I got problems lol

pH <6
ammonia 0
Nitrite 5+ I cant really tell
Nitrate 20

What the **** is going on here?

I just added a little more then 1/2 a tablespoon of baking soda, its kinda late and I cant be running around with buckets right now lol

I redosed the ammonia back to 4 while I was at it. What is going on here?

Baking soda isn't a great tool IMO, but the tank is empty so there's no harm done regardless. Something like crushed coral or aragonite sand in a mesh bag is a better option...but you gotta do what you gotta do.

Eco-complete takes any knowledge I have and basically throws it out the window...so I won't be much help I'm afraid. If we stepped back and remove the substrate from the equation, it would appear you have very low alkalinity water which should be buffered... at least during your cycle.

I'd do the pwc when you can, and try to pick up the CC when you drive past a lfs. One thing to be aware of, pH crashes seem to have an effect on especially the ammo > no2 bacteria, so don't be surprised if you see poor conversion for the next few days while it recovers. Then again, in this case, who knows, haha!

 

[FishN00b83]

I have the CC in the tank already! I just checked all my levels this morning and everything was fine. This happened over the course of 12 hours...

 

[jetajockey]

Question for jeta...if small bottles of cycling products containing heterotrophs have been proven to cause bio-filter crashes by outcompeting the true nitrifiers then dying off...why do you feel it's less of a concern in this situation? My initial thought would be that since the substrate is obviously absolutely loaded with heterotrophs compared to the bottled stuff...wouldn't that cause even more of a risk because there's already so much of it, doing so much conversion that the autotrophs haven't even got a chance at least for a significant amount of time? Is your thought based on the fact that the OP doesn't plan on stocking for a few weeks? Are you anticipating the heterotrophs dying off in that time and the others gaining a foothold?

It's because ecocomplete and planted tanks go hand in hand. Heterotrophs may be doing some conversion but plants are also readily consuming it as well, keeping the water safe while the true nitrifiers slowly build up.

A heavily planted tank can (and should) be stocked lightly as soon as it's up and running.

How that works with fishless cycling, who knows, the plants use ammonia as fertilizer, but I've never thrown such a large amount at them at once so I have no idea what a tank system would do in that situation, I'd rather just keep it simple.

 

[eco23]

I have the CC in the tank already! I just checked all my levels this morning and everything was fine. This happened over the course of 12 hours...

Hahaha! Geez man, honestly I don't know what to tell you. All I know is that substrate better be freaking awesome for your plants, lol. If you're sticking with fishless, I'd probably dose small levels no higher than1-2ppm. Hopefully that can calm this manic conversion and try to steady things out so we can at least get a handle on it. What's funny is I've never heard of Eco-complete doing things like this, then in the last week we've got at least 2-3 people dealing with it. I wonder if it's some new formula they're using?

 

[jetajockey]

I wonder if it's some new formula they're using?

The only time I've ever heard of them recalling or changing something up is that they put out a bad batch once, but content-wise it was safe, it just had an offputting color and texture.

It's really nothing more than something similar to a fired-clay type material impregnated with micronutrients. I just read over their item description on their site and it doesn't have any nitrogen in it, and claims not to raise pH. The 'blackwater' solution in the bag probably lowers it temporarily, but that's just a guess assuming it has tannic acid in it.