Newbie with sick fish

[Hara]

why on earth would you add a cycle fish?!? I would think you have lost enough of them by now. There are alternative methods to cycle tanks. It sounds to me as if your tank had not really cycled properly to begin with and with adding all the other fish, you just kept prolonging the issue.

I would shut the skimmer off, let your tank cycle properly then slowly add fish. Slowly equals one at a time with a week at least between them.

 

[Gauge]

why on earth would you add a cycle fish?!?

I meant a cycle fish for my QT tank considering these two are likely going to die. I'll replace the water in the QT tank with new, freshly mixed water, sterilized the filter/bioballs/biowheel, and start it from scratch. Once it's cycled I can keep it up full time and use it for new additions to my main tank

There are alternative methods to cycle tanks.

Like what? (not sarcasm... I sincerely think I'm missing something big here)

It sounds to me as if your tank had not really cycled properly to begin with and with adding all the other fish, you just kept prolonging the issue.

Okay, I can definitely agree with the first part. The tank probably did not cycle properly to begin with. It took significantly longer than I heard was average. I started with 6 green chromis (as per a LFSs suggestion) to get the cycle going. They were all dead before it was over (about a week and a half to kill them all). Then I was told to wait for the nitrites to come down and then start adding fish again.

Here is an idea I have about it that seems to contradict with what you're say, though, so tell me if the idea is wrong - I was of the opinion that if you add sources of ammonia, whatever they are, and regardless of whether or not they live, that will promote the growth of a bacteria population that will then turn that into nitrites. By adding the fish you add ammonia to the tank which is poison the the fish, but food to the bacteria, right? So if you kill the fish, but replace them, the bacteria will continue to grow until there are enough to process all the ammonia (i.e. food) and then everything balances. Then the same thing happens to nitrites. Is this not correct? And if so, how could my tank NOT have caught up by now? It's had a steady load for well over a month and a half, but the nitrites just won't hit rock bottom yet.

I would shut the skimmer off, let your tank cycle properly then slowly add fish. Slowly equals one at a time with a week at least between them.

Okay, then here is a plan... tell me what you think. I'm going to take the skimmer off, run the lights as normal, feed nothing into the tank, and keep all my fish out of it. I will wait for these two to die (which is inevitable), re-do the QT tank with new water and sterilized equipment, buy a fish to put in it for QTing, and then after two weeks of it sitting in QT move it over to the main tank, which would then have had two weeks to balance out. If it takes longer than that for the nitrites to hit zero, I'll keep the fish in QT for a little longer, then. Sound like a plan?

 

[steve-s]

I took a water sample to the LFS a few days ago, and here were the results:

Nitrates: 10-15
Nitrites: 0.1 (which my test agrees with, but I didn't previously know for reasons stated above)
Ammonia: 0
PH: 8.2

That is what I though you had said in a previous thread I saw but couldn't find it. These readings are what is confusing me and leads me to suspect it is low O2 (from low GPH) or possibley high ambient CO2 but your pH seems fine and does not support that. The pH test should be done as soon as you remove the water sample from the tank. Allowing it to sit uncovered will aerate it and skew the results.

With ammonia at zero and nitrate so low, there should be no nitrite. That's what does not make sense. Nitrate cannot form without nitrobacters, nitrobacters consume nitrite.

The speed in which I was speaking was the time period between fish additions. I understood that they where not there at the same time. Even though you only add one fish, the bio filter still needs time to catch up. Bacteria only grows to match what is in the tank and producing wastes, it is not always present in abunance but rather balanced. Have you ever used anti-biotics?

With only a skimmer I think 15-20 lbs of LR in 42g tank is very low and not allowing for enough surface area for colonizing bacteria to populate and quite possibley a part of the problem. I really think it's a combination of small things causing your problem, not one.

I think the fish in the QT does deserves the chance for life. It's your choice and I understand the frustration, I've been there.

You do not need a new "cycle" fish. The inverts in the main tank will provide the necessary wastes when you feed them. It will keep the bacteria alive. When introducing new fish, only one at a time after the initial QT and only add one every few weeks.

Any one else have something to add I may have missed

Cheers
Steve

 

[Gauge]

What water parameters are affect by O2 and in what way?

The pH test should be done as soon as you remove the water sample from the tank. Allowing it to sit uncovered will aerate it and skew the results.

I have a PH test at home, and it agrees with the 8.2, usually at night.

The speed in which I was speaking was the time period between fish additions. I understood that they where not there at the same time. Even though you only add one fish, the bio filter still needs time to catch up.

I was pretty much only adding a fish when another died. Most of them were replacements, not additions. And even so, when I started with a few, it should have caught up to them eventually, even if I was replacing them right away, shouldn't it have? I realize now I should've let it gradually increase, but it still should have worked eventually.

Have you ever used anti-biotics?

Never in my main tank, no.

With only a skimmer I think 15-20 lbs of LR in 42g tank is very low and not allowing for enough surface area for colonizing bacteria to populate and quite possibley a part of the problem.

It's not just a skimmer. The Backpack2 is a filter and skimmer. Wouldn't that be enough? The bacteria population can't need too much to support such a small number of fish at a time.

You do not need a new "cycle" fish. The inverts in the main tank will provide the necessary wastes when you feed them.

I was going to get the cycle fish for the QT tank. It can cycle the QT tank while the main tank sits and does nothing for a while. Then I can move him over to the main tank when the ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are in line. Also, I don't feed my inverts. I have the following:

1 arrow crab
2 blue reef hermit crabs
1 emerald crab
1 anemone crab
1 tiget tail sea cucumber
1 red bali star
1 cleaner shrimp

They all feed themselves, it seems like. Will they still produce the necessary waste to keep the bacteria population up in the main tank?


Does everyone think the ich problem is not an infestation, but just the normal amount of ich in the water (which I hear is always present) attacking fish that are stressed out by the water conditions (specifically nitrites)? Or do you think I should worry about the ich problem, even though it's only shown on about 1/4 of my dead fish?

 

[steve-s]

Low O2 will result in poor alk levels and problems with ph. Since you seem to be fine on the ph front, then it is less likely.

I was pretty much only adding a fish when another died. Most of them were replacements, not additions. And even so, when I started with a few, it should have caught up to them eventually, even if I was replacing them right away, shouldn't it have? I realize now I should've let it gradually increase, but it still should have worked eventually.

Whenever a fish dies it is best to wait, especially if the cause is not clear. It is usually prudent to wait until you can determine the cause and be asured that no other fish are affected or showing poor health.

It's not just a skimmer. The Backpack2 is a filter and skimmer. Wouldn't that be enough?

They are not actually a filter of sorts. More as an addition to bilogical filtration. I have one and would not rely on it. They will also need cleaning fairly often in a new tank.

The bacteria population can't need too much to support such a small number of fish at a time.

Incorrect. Bacteria grows in stages. If the nitrosomonas (ammonia bacteria) take up most of the available colonizing space, then when the nitrobacters start, they can only grow to a certain level due to lack of available surface area. That is why more LR is desired as it will provide more surface area for colonization as well as anoxic regions for dentrification.

Have you ever used anti-biotics?

Never in my main tank, no.

How was it used and where?

I was going to get the cycle fish for the QT tank. It can cycle the QT tank while the main tank sits and does nothing for a while. Then I can move him over to the main tank when the ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are in line. Also, I don't feed my inverts. I have the following:

When you feed the fish, you feed the inverts by default. They will perform the same task as a fish. Anything that makes waste or decays creates ammonia and supports the bacteria. One or two would not do that much but you have quite a few and should be fine. Just add something for them once or twice a week. Sinking pellets would be best.

Does everyone think the ich problem is not an infestation, but just the normal amount of ich in the water (which I hear is always present)

No I do not agree. Ich is never present in "normal" amounts nor is it always in the water or on the fish for that matter.. That is a myth. Fish can live in the tank ich free if quarantined properly first. You should leave the main tank fallow for the next six weeks.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Gauge]

This my sound a bit drastic, but this is an idea I'm toying with. I'm thinking that I'm back to square one. My tank has nothing good that it didn't start with. It's not properly cycled. It has some form of parasitic infestation possibly. It has no fish, and a few invertibrates. I'm thinking about wiping the slate completely clean and starting over. Here is what I'm considering doing...

Empty out the water in the QT tank and sterilize the filter with bleach. Take all my invertibrates from the main tank and put them into the QT tank. Take all the rock from the main tank and put it in a cooler with some water in it. Take all the sand and put it in a rubbermaid bin. Empty all the water out of the main tank and filter. Fill the tank with a little tap water and add some bleach. Scrub the sucker down extensively and get it entirely clean and sterilized. Do the same with the sand in the rubbermaid bin. Do the same with the filter and biomedia. Mix up new water and put it in the tank. Put the inverts back in the tank. Then add one fish and start my cycle over again.

In a computer analogy, I'm sick of trying to find the bug in the OS. I just want to format and get a clean install. Is this crazy? It sure sounds good at this point.


Anyway, back to the discussion...

How was it used and where?

I set up a QT tank for one of my cowfish and used some antibiotics in it. He never got better, and thus never got moved back. I didn't use any bioballs from the filter or anything.

Here's a question for you... If I leave my tank now with no fish, a few inverts, never feeding it, and it having 0.1 nitrites, and in two weeks the nitrites are still at 0.1, what does that mean? No ammonia production to speak of. At the very least, no *changes* in the ammonia production. The bacteria should catch up at least, if not eliminate the last remaining traces of ammonia in the tank. This just doesn't make any sense to me at all. The only explination that seems to apply to this paradox is Steve-S saying that the nitrite-processing bacteria not having enough room to grow because the ammonia-processing bacteria is taking up too much room.

 

[ReefLady]

I understand your frustration, and wanting to wipe the "slate clean". The one major issue I can see is that you'll need to find a temporary home for your inverts - they will not survive a cycle.

Now, off to grab some coffee...

 

[reefrunner69]

Then add one fish and start my cycle over again.

Please read this, "How to cycle your tank, without the use of fish."

I agree with RL, you will need to find a different home for your inverts while you cycle the tank.

At the very least, no *changes* in the ammonia production. The bacteria should catch up at least, if not eliminate the last remaining traces of ammonia in the tank. This just doesn't make any sense to me at all. The only explination that seems to apply to this paradox is Steve-S saying that the nitrite-processing bacteria not having enough room to grow because the ammonia-processing bacteria is taking up too much room.

This is quite possible. Just to clarify a bit (I know it is semantics, but how you look at it will determine whether you do it right next time.) The nitrosomonas are not taking up too much room, they are taking the space needed for a colony large enough to process the amount of ammonia your tank provides. Your filter may not have enough surface area for all the necessary micro-organisms needed for nitrification.

 

[Gauge]

To be quite honest, I had a few drinks last night and was a bit under the influence when I made that post. When I woke up this morning, I thought you guys would react poorly to the suggestion and just condem my impatience. The wiping the slate clean idea sounds a little less attractive (as most things do when you're hung over), but I still might consider it. Do you all think I should? It would be cheaper to bleach the tank than it would to buy more rock and stuff. However, do you think the same thing would happen again? I'd like some opinions and input on the idea of starting over.

Thanks a lot, peeps

 

[steve-s]

Personally I would leave the tank and build on what you already have. I would take the inverts back to the LFS for store credit unless you have a friend willing to house them.

Then I would get another 50 lbs of LR to add the the 15-20 you already have. The using the info RR provided about "Fishless Cycling", start fresh but not necessarily new.

The amount of time it will take to re-cycle the tank with the new LR and such will also be enough time to allow the possible "parasite" problem to clear up on it's own. The "tear down" and bleaching is not necessary.

reefrunner69 has already clarified it but just to add a bit more. When I was refering to the nitrosomonas, I was meaning that when bacteria is formed in a new tank they are first. If the available ammonia is sufficient to support a colony that takes up the majority of the surface area then when the nitrobacters start up they may have sufficient foods (nitrite) but insufficient growing space to colonize. I think greatly increasing you LR will take care of that problem.

No worries about the "rant", but next time your gonna take a sip you gotta share

Cheers
Steve

 

[Gauge]

Yeah, I've always had a theory about working with computers. When they baffle and frustrate you beyond your capacity, getting drunk will often provide the relief and just enough clarity to see the solution. Hehe.

Where and how is a good way to buy rock? The reason I have so little thusfar is because I can't afford to spend all that much at a time. I bought my rock for $6 a pound, which is a pretty good price around here. Is there a good place to buy it online or something? Any other suggestions for good deals?

Do you think more rock would be more benificial than a sump to replace the backpack?

 

[steve-s]

Adding a sump would be a great idea, but I think adding the rock will do the same thing. It's up to you. If you do add the sump, keep the bakpak as it will help with your problem moreso when they are combined.

Good souces of LR are usually found online. Others could possibley direct you to a good E-tailer. You could also consider the option of using dry base rock and placing the LR you already haave atop of it. HiRocks is a great source $1.33/lb for 60 lbs and that includes the shipping cost.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Gauge]

I'd like to stick with fiji LR since that's what I've got thusfar. Could you suggest a good place to purchase said rock?

 

[steve-s]

Couldn't really tell you where a good source is as I live in Canada.

I would not worry to much about the location the LR is harvested from. In fact, the more diffrent types of rock you place in the tank, the greater your bio diversity. Fiji rock is really not the best as it is also the densest and not great for the purposes of dentrification. It is however great "seeding" rock for coralline.

Tampa Bay rock, tonga rock, kanai rock, gulf rock and so one are usually good choices. Just watch out for mantis and other pest hitchikers with the gulf and tampa rock.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Gauge]

I read that article on fishless cycling. That is a pretty good idea. I don't know what I should do at this point, though. I'm abandoning the idea of bleaching all my stuff and starting the tank over again. I think that instead I'm going to mix up a huge amount of water (30 gallons or so), vacuum my sand with my syphon hose, clean the filter out thoroughly because it has a lot of junk sitting in the bottom of it, and replace the water with the said 30 gallons of freshly mixed water. At this point I may or may not add some rock to the tank to give the bacteria some more room to grow. That depends on finances.

I'm tempted to throw in some raw shrimp as the article suggested, but I'm affraid of two things... first, it will make the tank cycle a bit, and my inverts will die (cuz I don't have much place to put them... second, the little buggers will eat the shrimp anyway.

Does this sound like a good idea? Any additional suggestions?

 

[steve-s]

I'm tempted to throw in some raw shrimp as the article suggested, but I'm affraid of two things... first, it will make the tank cycle a bit

It will definately increase the amount of ammonia, but I fear that without increased surface area for the nitrobatcers if will not yield possitive results.

and my inverts will die (cuz I don't have much place to put them... second, the little buggers will eat the shrimp anyway.
Does this sound like a good idea? Any additional suggestions?

They will try and eat most of the shrimp and I would not add it due to the inverts. Sharp increases in ammonia will most likely doom them. Other than what has already been suggested I don't think there much left to add. Personally, I would not do the massive water change or sustrate cleaning. Just do a few small water changes over the next few weeks and let nature do the rest for you. With such a light bio load, the excess nitrosomonas will decrease on their own without continual wastes being produced. It will then allow for the nitrobacters to catch up. If that's the case, then you must be extremely careful when/if you add fish later. Without an increase in the amount of LR or the addition of a sump, you will be back to square one.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Gauge]

I went up to my LFS to buy ammonia and nitrate tests today, and the owner of the store (with whom I've spoken a few times) recognized me and asked me how the tank was doing. I told him that it was doing about as well as one-armed man hanging from a cliff with jock itch. He asked me what my plan was, and I told him that I was just going to let the tank sit for a while until the nitrites disappeared and then add a fish at a time very slowly. He said that I was crazy to think that 0.1 nitrites was a serious problem. He said as long as it never goes above 0.1 it shouldn't be a problem. *shrug* It never does. He says that all the tanks in the store do that; fluctuate between 0 and 0.1. Another contradiction in this confusing hobby.

He asked me if I ever used any chemicals to clean the glass. I said that I used Windex, but I had a top on the tank that covered like 95% of the surface area of the tank and I was careful never to spray near the open parts. He said that was probably my problem. He said that if ich wasn't showing up on even a third of my fish, then it was just the natural amount of ich in the tank taking advantage of fish stressed by some other, more serious problem. He told me I should do some big water changes to get rid of whatever chemicals or other such junk was in the tank and put some fish back in and test it.

What do you all think? Please elaborate beyond "He's crazy," or "Don't bother talking to that idiot anymore." If I believed it every time I heard that, there wouldn't be anyone left to talk to in this hobby.

I swear you NEVER hear the same thing twice where aquariums are concerned. What one person swears by another condemns. *sigh*

 

[steve-s]

He said that I was crazy to think that 0.1 nitrites was a serious problem. He said as long as it never goes above 0.1 it shouldn't be a problem. *shrug* It never does. He says that all the tanks in the store do that; fluctuate between 0 and 0.1. Another contradiction in this confusing hobby.

True, his tanks are most likley at that level due to constant changes in bio load as well as feedings. LFS tanks usually all share the same filtration system which will incease the chances of nitrites. They are not much a concern to him simpley becasue the fish do not have to weather that kind of environment long term. Most fish are gone within a week or two. Only a fish that must endure for a longer period would suffer.

He asked me if I ever used any chemicals to clean the glass. I said that I used Windex, but I had a top on the tank that covered like 95% of the surface area of the tank and I was careful never to spray near the open parts. He said that was probably my problem.

That would definately cause a problem. Cleaning products should never be used in the vacinity or your tank. Whenever I use something like that, I do it in a different room and spray the cloth, then go to the tank. Carbon would/should remove the chemical/pollutants as well as the water change.

He said that if ich wasn't showing up on even a third of my fish, then it was just the natural amount of ich in the tank taking advantage of fish stressed by some other, more serious problem.

As I have said before, there is no such thing as a natural amount if ich. A display tank can go it's entire time without ever having a parasite problem if the fish are QT'd prior to every addition to the disply tank. Fish do not always have ich. That is a myth and your LFS is perpetuating it.

Cheers
Steve

 

[reefrunner69]

and I told him that I was just going to let the tank sit for a while until the nitrites disappeared and then add a fish at a time very slowly.

This is a sound plan, although as has been mentioned, you need to add more biological media/surface area. preferably in the form of additional LR, but even a larger filter would suffice.

He said that I was crazy to think that 0.1 nitrites was a serious problem. He said as long as it never goes above 0.1 it shouldn't be a problem. *shrug* It never does. He says that all the tanks in the store do that; fluctuate between 0 and 0.1. Another contradiction in this confusing hobby.

True, his tanks are most likley at that level due to constant changes in bio load as well as feedings. LFS tanks usually all share the same filtration system which will incease the chances of nitrites. They are not much a concern to him simpley becasue the fish do not have to weather that kind of environment long term. Most fish are gone within a week or two. Only a fish that must endure for a longer period would suffer.

Totally agree with Steve here!! In an established tank there should never be any ammonia or nitrite. If there is, then it is a sign that something is going on with your tank. As noted by Steve, it is fairly obvious what is going on with the dealers tank. One thing I would like to recommend here, get some quality test kits. Your understanding of what is going on with your water is only as good as your test kit, I personally use Salifert kits They are very accurate (will actually give a 0 reading) and user friendly.

He asked me if I ever used any chemicals to clean the glass. I said that I used Windex, but I had a top on the tank that covered like 95% of the surface area of the tank and I was careful never to spray near the open parts. He said that was probably my problem.

OK, this could be a problem, but I seriously doubt it is your problem. If the windex were the problem, those three fish you had in there would have died. You would have noticed each time you cleaned the glass, fish died, all of them. The inverts would have died as well. Chemical poisoning would have caused an entire tank crash. That said, I do not use windex or any other spray cleaner near my tank. I clean the glass with water and vinegar and paper towels

He said that if ich wasn't showing up on even a third of my fish, then it was just the natural amount of ich in the tank taking advantage of fish stressed by some other,

Ick is not an infection, it is not a disease, it is not a virus, it is an external parasite, similar to a tick. Since there is no natural level of ticks for the human body, there is also no natural level of ick for the fish. If you do not put it in your tank when you add a new fish, it will not be there to infest other fish.

He told me I should do some big water changes to get rid of whatever chemicals or other such junk was in the tank and put some fish back in and test it.

This concerns me. You have told this man your story, how your fish have been dieing and he wants you to immediately put more fish in your tank? Is he giving you these test fish for free? I think it's obvious where his motives are.

What do you all think? Please elaborate beyond "He's crazy," or "Don't bother talking to that idiot anymore." If I believed it every time I heard that, there wouldn't be anyone left to talk to in this hobby.

I really hope you haven't seen that here. When people are wrong, I hope we let you know they were wrong, but not in that manner. I hope we tell you what is right and why it is right, then you can come to the conclusion that the LFS is out for your money, not the health and well being of your tank. This thread is 10 pages long, my post here is number 98. I have spent alot of time on this thread, steve-s has posted to this thread more than everyone (accept you) and has spent alot of his time on it, ReefLady has taken time on this thread a few others as well. None of us are selling you anything, we have nothing to gain from misleading you. All three of us pretty much agree with what is going on and what you should do to fix it. Our advice is sound, it is the same, or very close to the same as you will get anywhere. There are several methodologies in this hobby and some people like some more than others, vociferously so , but when it comes to issues like this, most experienced hobbyist will agree.

 

[fishfreek]

Gauge, One thing I would like to make clear is that we the members and staff at aquarium advice have nothing to gain from your problems. In fact we have everything to gain from helping you get the answers you need and geting positive results in turning your tank around.

As hard as it might sount your LFS has alot to gain immedeatly from your problems. Most LFS's will be the first to recommend you purchase something that will 'take care of your problems'.


I dont know if there is much more that we can say to help you that has not already been mentioned in this topic that now streaches 10 pages.