Pwc question

[cogburn]

suction with a python is 500% better than a typical gravel vac

 

[angeltank]

THANKS guys i think i am going to have to invest in a python once i have to $
i found out some problems last night with my fish tank i will be doing another post all about them later today or tomorrow

once again thanks allot!!!

 

[sqrle]

HUH,
Python IS a gravel vac and you vacuum the gravel while you are changing water.
I add conditioner before adding water when working alone. Sometimes my daughter helps and puts the conditioner right into the stream from my Python as it fills the tank.

AAHHH, ok. I never realy looked into them, and thought that maybe they were a way just to remove and refill water. That is what I learned today.
Thanks for the correction.

 

[cogburn]

oh yeah sqrle... python is an awesome gravel vac... seriously there is no easier way in the world to take care of your tanks... they waste a bit of water during the draining process but its totally worth it... i couldnt live without it

 

[HooKooDooKu]

...they waste a bit of water during the draining process but its totally worth it...

I just happened to be looking at something at Python's website today. Here is a copy-n-paste from their website regarding the water waste:

"Environmentally Responsible! Due to our powerful 7 to 1 suction ratio, cleaning your tank uses about the same amount of water as flushing your toilet"
No Spill Clean & Fill Python Productss

Anyone care to comment on that claim?


Here's my take (being the advertizing synic that I am).

1. I would assume that the claim is based on old U.S. conventional flush toilets that according to Wikipedia: "The conventional flush-toilet or gravity-fed toilet uses 13 litres (3.4 US gallons or 2.8 imperial gallons) or more per flush."

2. Python's own FAQ page suggests "5 to 10% water changes" (so of course it's going to be based on a 5% water change).

3. I would assume they are talking about doing a water change in a 10 gallon aquarium (the single most common tank size). Obviously they don't want to make such a claim with a larger tank, and anything smaller would be more than simply disengenuous.

Since a 5% water change in a 10 gallon tank is 1/2 a gallon, then you will waste 3.4 gallons to empty 1/2 gallon.


OMG - I'M NOW POSITIVE I AM ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

Look at the math I just laid out. If you round that 3.4 gallons for a toilet flush to 3.5 gallons, then you use 3.5 gallons to empty 1/2 gallon... A SEVEN TO ONE RATIO!!!

So I feel pretty confident that Python's claims could be restated this way: "Used only 7 gallons of water to siphon 1 gallon of water out of your tank!" I don't think that's going to sell many Pythons. Now I understand the guy from Austrailia that posted here in AA that he can't use a python because of water restrictions... and now I understand why.

 

[missileman]

I think they meant 7 to 1 the other way. 7 parts aquarium water to 1 part tap water.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I have to agree that it isn't 7 tap and 1 aquarium. I drain 45 gal out of my tanks upstairs into the lawn. We don't have 315 gal of water pooled in our front yard afterwards.

 

[cogburn]

yeah 7 to 1 sounds way wrong... ill agree it does waste quite a bit of water but theres no way to 7-1

 

[HooKooDooKu]

I think they meant 7 to 1 the other way. 7 parts aquarium water to 1 part tap water.

As I say, I have not used one, and having read the literature, it's obvious that is what they want you to think. But then my synical mind took over.

So obviously I could be wrong. I was just a bit blown away when I started trying to put numbers to their claims, followed a logical path, and almost perfectly hit on thier 7-to-1 ratio. Since the literature online didn't specifically say 1 gallon of tap to 7 gallons of aquarium water, the synic in me assumes the worst until I see it for my self (been "burned" too many times by manufacturers claims).

 

[ezy33]

By my math a 10% water change on a 180 gallon tank will use 2.57 gallons extra. To drain it would take 25.7 gallons. As I have never used one does waste water when you refill the tank? I can see as a vacuum or if your tank is below street level it could be very handy. But for draining the average tank a garden hose will work and not waste water.

As for treating the water, when my water company changed from chlorine to chloramine I had to treat the water before putting it into the tank. I had a 6" Bala Shark teach me that one.

 

[HooKooDooKu]

I have to agree that it isn't 7 tap and 1 aquarium. I drain 45 gal out of my tanks upstairs into the lawn. We don't have 315 gal of water pooled in our front yard afterwards.

Are you using the Phyon the way it was designed?

As best as I can tell, when it comes to emptying the tank, the Python is designed for you to turn on the tap and allow water to flow from the tap, through that 5" long green nozzle the tubing connects to and down the drain. This flow of tap water through the nozzle creates a suction to pull water out of the aquarium. Under the idea that the aquarium is likely about on par in height as the sink, this suction continues to pull the water out as opposed to using a siphon effect (which requires the discharge to be below the level of the tank). I could easily see where using such a vacum would be very inefficient and could believe 7 tap vs 1 tank.

But when you talk about an upstairs tank, dumping the water on the lawn and it not going down the sink drain, that sounds more like you are using some sort of siphon effect... wait a minute... I think I've figured it out in your case... please tell me if I'm wrong, but since the water is NOT going down a drain, it sounds like you are using the python by connecting it to an outside hose bibb (garden hose faucet) located at ground level. If so, that means that when it comes to emptying the tank, you are really only using the python to start the siphon. Once the water gets flowing from the upstairs tank to the downstair lawn, the siphon effect with that 8 to 10 foot drop is going to have a MUCH greater "sucking" force than what the phython's vacum effect is supposed to.

Wabounand allow the tap water to flow through the 5" long green thing and down the drain. The green thing is designed

 

[missileman]

Re-filling is the same as using a garden hose, no extra water is used.
As for 7-1.
I guess someone would have to actually measure it to be sure but cicumstantial evidence would suggest that it doesn't use more tap water vs tank water.
I have completely emptied my 10 gallon numerous times and it only takes a couple of minutes. If 7-1 was tap water as the 7, I would have ran 70 gallons of tap water in those couple of minutes and I know for a fact that my water flow from my faucets is not anywhere near that high(I have measured it at 4 gallons per minute).Add to that the fact that waterflow from the tap is being restricted going through the fitting and I just can't believe a whole lot of water is being wasted at all.

 

[missileman]

A simple test if someone wants to take it on.
Suck up 1 gallon of water with your Python with the discharge going into a 5 gallon bucket and see what you get.

 

[missileman]

Well, now that I am on my soap box I might as well finish.
Even if it does use 7 times the water, which I seriously doubt, so what?
Unless you have a severly limited water supply or pay an astronomical fee for your water.
I change about 100 gallons of water per week so at the 7-1 ratio that would mean 700 gallons of tap water, Again I don't believe it because I can do all of that water change in under an hour and I don't have that kind of flow. (it takes me 20 hours to fill a 5,000 gallon pool, that is 250 gallons per hour),
Even if it was true that is 2800 gallons per month. I pay $2.50 per 1,000 gallons so that is less than $7 worth of water (I think much less) a small price to pay for the way it works and the job it does at maintaining my tanks. The time it saves me alone is worth many times that.
PS: Knowing I have a waterflow of 250 gallons per hour from my tap and changing 100 gallons in under an hour I can say that first off 100 gallons are not wasted because that is going into my tanks and also I don't leave the tap on the whole time, off while moving things around ect... so at worst I am actually using equal amounts of tap water vs aquarium water. Simple math.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

We have a tank in the basement and two tanks on the main floor. I call the tanks in the living room the "upstairs tanks" for easy reference even though it's on the main floor. We have such poor water pressure that the Python won't suck water out of the tanks in the living room from the kitchen faucet. I have to connect the Python to a garden hose outside. It then drains into the lawn. Takes about 20 minutes to empty the tanks 50% (roughly 45 gal). I would have to be wasting 315 gal of water, or 15 gal per minute. My water pressure is not great enough for 15.75 gal per minute. More like 3 to 4 per minute. Yeah, our water pressure is awful. Even our garden hose pressure isn't as good as others. Refilling does not waste any water at all. I attach the Python to my kitchen tank for refilling so I can alter the water temp.

 

[HooKooDooKu]

Well, now that I am on my soap box I might as well finish.
Even if it does use 7 times the water, which I seriously doubt, so what?
Unless you have a severly limited water supply or pay an astronomical fee for your water....

I'll agree, that for many people, they will not care if the Python uses that much water. After all, for the average home owner using a Python on a 10 gallon tank, even if they did a 25% PWC once a week, that would be less than adding one extra flush of a 3.5 gallon toilet a day.

But for those that might live in places with either water restrictions or have temporary restrictions placed on them, it would be nice to have the facts so that they can use a Python responsibly.

Missleman, I must point out that even just the sample you've provided shows that the Python is NOT 1 gallon of tap for 7 gallons of tank water. If you assume your "couple of minutes" equates to exactly 2 minutes, and if your sink can produce almost 4 gallons of water per minute, when you consider the fact a 10 gallon tank likely does not have 10 gallons of water (once you include some air space, substrait, decorations) you are talking about numbers on the order of one-to-one. So the question becomes are you practically getting 7 times better results than their claims or 7 times worst.

Of course a BIG thing that is going to influence results is the siphon effect. If your tank is mounted higher than your sink faucet, then once you've got the water flowing, the siphon might be doing more work than the Python. If this is the case, then all you really need from the Python to empty the tank is to just get the siphon started. After that, you might be able to turn the water off or at least way down until you are ready to being filling the tank.

 

[missileman]

I am not claiming the 7-1 ratio.
I am just saying that 7 parts tap water to 1 part aquarium water is not even close based on my own regular use. My tanks and sink are on average heights and average tap water flow.
My best guess is 50% tap water to aquarium water or close to it while siphoning.
PS: the last time I drained my 10 gallon (yesterday to move to my daughters room) the tank was sitting on the floor so it was much lower than the tap.

 

[cogburn]

no it wastes NO water when you refill... you close the valve and all the water goes straight into the tank... honestly tho... even if its one gallon of tap per 7 gallons... thats not all that bad but 7 gallons of tap per 1 gallon of aquarium theres just no way my faucet does not run out 70 gallons when i change 10 on my 29 gallon no way

 

[HooKooDooKu]

We have a tank in the basement and two tanks on the main floor. I call the tanks in the living room the "upstairs tanks" for easy reference even though it's on the main floor. We have such poor water pressure that the Python won't suck water out of the tanks in the living room from the kitchen faucet. I have to connect the Python to a garden hose outside. It then drains into the lawn. Takes about 20 minutes to empty the tanks 50% (roughly 45 gal). I would have to be wasting 315 gal of water, or 15 gal per minute. My water pressure is not great enough for 15.75 gal per minute. More like 3 to 4 per minute. Yeah, our water pressure is awful. Even our garden hose pressure isn't as good as others. Refilling does not waste any water at all. I attach the Python to my kitchen tank for refilling so I can alter the water temp.

Again, sounds like a situation where a siphoning effect from gravity rather than a vinturi effect from the Python is doing more of the water removal.

In other words, in the setup you describe, regardless of Python's claims, I would expect you to get BETTER results than what they claim. After all, just based on the sample picture they have on their web site, you would assume that they are talking about a tank on a typical tank stand connected to a sink of typical height. That would place the tank water and the Python nozzle within aabout one vertical foot of each other.

 

[HooKooDooKu]

no it wastes NO water when you refill... you close the valve and all the water goes straight into the tank... honestly tho... even if its one gallon of tap per 7 gallons... thats not all that bad but 7 gallons of tap per 1 gallon of aquarium theres just no way my faucet does not run out 70 gallons when i change 10 on my 29 gallon no way

As best as I can figure, no one is talking about any waste when you refill.

This is all about how much tap water goes down the drain when you use the Python's nozzle connected to a sink and the tube running to the fish tank to suck water out of the tank.

While I don't know the exact details of the Python's designs, in principal, their roughtly 5" nozzle that connect to the sink and tubing to the fish tank is utilizing the water pressure comming out of the sink to create suction on the tube. In the process, the water producing that suction is just wasted down the sink.

So the basic question is how much water does the Python waste to produce this sucking pressure?

And given that a siphon is a VERY effective means of empting water from the tank (because you only need enough external suction to get the water up and over the top of the tank and back down to the water level in the tank, once it's below that level in the hose, gravity does all the rest of the work from there with no additional external suction), it's not a fair test for those that are using sinks or hose bibbs situated much lower than the tank. For those setups, you really only need to turn the water on long enough to start the siphon. After that, it doesn't mater if you are trying to empty a 10 gallon tank or a 1000 gallon tank. Once the siphon is started, gravity does ALL the work.

BTW, this is what I would consider the ideal setup for a Python... a sink or hose bibb situated much lower than the tank. For that setup, you only have to waste enough water to start the siphon, then let the siphon do the work. Once the tank is empty, you then use household water pressure to push the water back up the hose and into the tank. For that situation, the only water you should waste filling the tank is the water left over in the Python tubing once you are done.