Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Andy Sager]

With your permission, i'd like to post a few pics of my black lace veils and ask if you think their fins are too angled or anything else you might see wrong or right. Ive been working on them and need a fresh set of eyes. Thanks for everything andy.

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No problem. Glad to.

 

[PoppaRyno]

Here ya go.

 

[PoppaRyno]

2 more

 

[Andy Sager]

Okay, for starters those are some nicely colored fish. I wanted to get that out of the way
Keep in mind that there really aren't absolute standards for what a veiltail Angelfish HAS TO look like in order for it to be A+. What standards do get used can be seen here: TAS Library - Conformation Standards for Freshwater Angelfish

Now, after saying all that , I believe most Angelfish "snobs" ( of which I have been called this. ) would prefer to have Veils that have straight fins with a cascading appearance creating the veil. As explained in the link above, there can be a slight curve to the Dorsal and Anal fins but how much seems to be a "dealer's choice" as to what's "proper".
This is one of the reasons the fish in my avatar ( I'll include a larger pic below) was one of my favorites. His fins were straight and the way he held his tail was just beautiful in my eyes. So keeping this in mind, I do favor one of the fish in your pictures and I'm guessing you can imagine which one. If you can breed that line so that the dorsal fin would shape out like it's anal fin ( conformity wise with the fringe), I'd probably jump in my car and take a road trip to get some.

Hope this helps.

 

[PoppaRyno]

Its hard for me to know which one your talkin about. They all seem to have tall straight fins... When theyre not swirling that is. Everytime i try and get good pics they think im gonna feed so they just start goin crazy. Lol

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[Andy Sager]

2 more

Sorry bout that. It was the top fish in this pic. It's just that the dorsal fin looks straighter in this pic then the other fish's. I was assuming the angle the pic was taken was where the curve in the middle was coming from. With the second fish, it's dorsal fin seems to either come to an abrupt stop or is bent almost 90 degrees to the fin. It's hard to always tell in pics, as you know, because if the fish is swimming, the fins take on a different shape at times. Truth is, the pic of my big guy was taken while he was asleep. That was the only way I could get the "true" shape to come out in a picture. It was when he was in an outside tank so one night, I had the roomie turn on the porch light a second before I flashed the pic. I tried while he was awake but never got as good a pose as this one that way. If you ever saw some of the old TFH books, most of their pics were of dead fish. Now you know why. lol It's much easier to pose a stiff than a live fish.

 

[PoppaRyno]

It sure can be frustrating... Lol. Thanks man. I appreciate the knowledge.

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[coralbandit]

Andy got me!
Top fish in the pic he linked will catch the customers eye.
Both are beautiful , but put side by side with untrained eyes as to sexing then the top is king.
They are a pair though huh?
So top would be the male?
With a breeders eye it is not the same as a customers eye???
How many generations in are they?

 

[Andy Sager]

Andy got me!
Top fish in the pic he linked will catch the customers eye.
Both are beautiful , but put side by side with untrained eyes as to sexing then the top is king.
They are a pair though huh?
So top would be the male?
With a breeders eye it is not the same as a customers eye???
How many generations in are they?

There is no doubt that for today's fish, they are gorgeous!! But that wasn't the question. If you go to the link in my previous post for standards and go through the different pics of veils throughout it, you will see what I am talking about better. That said, if you have a good imagination, try envisioning a fish with a dorsal and anal fin that is similar to that top fish's anal fin as it is in this picture. My mind's eye has it so beautiful that it would be worth a long car trip. Fins with all that symmetrical fringe. Oh man!!!!!! Gets my motor racing.

 

[PoppaRyno]

Ill see what i can do..... Not sure if they are pairing. These are only abt 5 months old.

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[Andy Sager]

Well I am still waiting for those Zebras to "get to it". Tomorrow is water change day again so maybe that will push them a bit.
On a brighter note, the eggs from the new Back lace/ Silver pair have hatched. Once again, I have visual proof that the theory " New pairs need time to get it right" is totally false. The fish know what they are doing from the get go. It's the setup that makes them fail. The female from this pair has spawned at least 3 or 4 times with her brother but the male was a certified virgin. The spawn was rather large for the size of the female but and the hatch percentage was over 90%. That was from a tank with other fish for distractions and a small inside power filter in the tank as well but on the other side of the tank. The spawn happened on the slate not any intake stem so the water movement was minimal I'm sure. This may also account for the hatch percentage not being too small. The eggs were removed and set up in a tank just like all the others so nothing special was done to them and this was the result. So what do they need to learn to get it right? Not too much in my eyes.

 

[Andy Sager]

Apparently, the Barred Marbles & pair #2 aren't the only ones that can read because as I type this, the Zebras are just finishing up spawning. They must have read my previous post. I guess just the threat of a water change was enough to get them going. I just looked and saw them both doing their thing so I know the eggs are getting fertilized. So it's time . Next will be seeing how they turn out but having them spawn is the first step. I am trying a trick I learned recently and just took some water out of the Zebra's tank and poured it into the Blacks and the original 1/2 Black's tanks. There is supposedly a hormone being released by a spawning fish that makes the other females exposed to it want to spawn themselves. I've not done this before ( or needed to quite frankly) but at this point, I'll try anything to get those 2 pairs to pop. The poor female 1/2 Black is just so beaten up. I know she must be carrying eggs by this point so I just want to help satisfy the male so that he leaves her alone for a bit. And of course, as I was getting the step stool to do this water exchange, I had to pass the Blushing/ Gold Marble pair and they were going to town themselves. I almost don't want to keep this one until I see what comes from their previous spawns. So far, I don't see anything too exciting about them but they aren't really old enough to make a final decision as to what to do. I almost want to pair her off with the Black male if the Black pair doesn't spawn soon. Can you picture a Black Blushing? What about a 1/2 Black Blushing? The possibilities are amazing.
I also just caught the tank of Barred Marbles I am keeping to give to my buddy having some issues with each other. A quick glance and I see a pair formed and they spawned on the back glass. I can't even remove them to do a fertility test so it's a good thing I have an empty breeder 10 gal to move them to for the next time.

So it looks like I need to get those 6 new tanks up and running A.S.A.P. Maybe I need to do a LOWE'S run for more bricks and just set up a bunch of stuff outside. I have too many fish!!!!

 

[PoppaRyno]

Expansion vs outsourcing..... There sir, is a heck of a debateable choice. But if the arguements there, then so is progress. Keep pushing...... Your killin it with em.

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[Bdonaldson]

Great job Andy. Better to have to many fish than not enough fish. It sounds like the business is booming.

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[Andy Sager]

Great job Andy. Better to have to many fish than not enough fish. It sounds like the business is booming.

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Thanks. Production is booming more than business tho. Many bad fry coming from these spawns so it will be a while before I can fix a lot of the genetics. While I prefer to raise these fish indoors, it looks like I will have to use the outside tanks for a while just to grow the excess to see what I have. It's mind blowing already. But it keeps me off the streets making trouble.

 

[Andy Sager]

Today was a big day in the breeding row. Water changes today led to some spawns. The new pair ( 1/2 Black male- Silver veil female) spawned so I should now have the opportunity to introduce the veil gene into the 1/2 Black line. The Old Silver female from the Silver - Black pair just spawned with the big marble Veil male. Hopefully I will get some good veils out of them HOWEVER, the male does have some crooked fins so while I am not thrilled with this, it's a new gene pool to get into the line so we will see. Those Blacks did go through the motions of cleaning the slate and rubbing their tubes on it but as of now, still no spawn. None from the 1/2 black pair either.
I decided that enough was enough and I made some more changes with some of the fish. I separated the Koi- GM pair and put the male with the red cap and the female with a large Barred Marble Veil. I really want to see if I can get good Koi from the red cap and GM Veils from the other pair. Time will tell.
As of this hour, there is only 10 white eggs on the Zebra slate. That's after about 30 hours so I am starting to get my dancing shoes ready. ( I'm not putting them on yet, just getting them ready. )

 

[Bdonaldson]

Sounds like you have your hands full Andy. With all those spawns do you get any rest. Maybe it's time to get a helper. Do you know anyone that could help you out. I can just see you running around down there like a chicken with his head cut off trying to keep up with everything.

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[Andy Sager]

Sounds like you have your hands full Andy. With all those spawns do you get any rest. Maybe it's time to get a helper. Do you know anyone that could help you out. I can just see you running around down there like a chicken with his head cut off trying to keep up with everything.

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Yes, Yes, Yes, No and No.
Yes, I have my hands full.
Yes, I get plenty of rest.
Yes, I wish I had a helper.
No, I don't know anyone who is close enough to me to work.
No, I'm not running around like a beheaded chicken.

Systems is how I get a lot done in a short amount of time. I have a big bucket that I drain in to and a pump that pumps the water out of the bucket and into the drain line. I don't haul water. I have a hose with a home made shutoff nozzle that runs from my water line and fills the tanks. ( I am on a well now but when I was on city water, I just added a Culligan filter between the hose and the water line.) So I am draining and filling different tanks at the same time. It's really not so hard.

As I've been trying to point out, fish keeping does not have to be hard. Fish breeding does not have to be hard. With a little planning, it all works out.

 

[Andy Sager]

Morning update: All the spawns still look good and the Plecos spawned last night. I noticed that the tube was cleaner than usual yesterday and the female was hanging out near the tube more so than usual as well. Unfortunately, the egg mass is once again, outside of the tube. The male is right on top of them but I suppose I will be removing the mass at some point. Once again, fish breeding is about observing your fish.

 

[PoppaRyno]

Give them a cichlid stone, andy. I had issues much like your describing. I had a good buddy at the local club tell me abt cichlid stones for pleco breeding. Since then its batch after, after batch. They have different sizes as well. My lfs carries them as do big box stores. Worked better than any tube, or wood that i've try'd. Ill post a pic of one in a sec.

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