Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[PoppaRyno]

Are you trying the shorter exposure darker color set. Longer exposure lighter trick.

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[Andy Sager]

Are you trying the shorter exposure darker color set. Longer exposure lighter trick.

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Am I supposed to give away ALL my secrets??? Who will buy my book then ( if I write one. )

Actually, it's light spectrum as much as light hours.

 

[PoppaRyno]

Yes... Dr. Concannon touched on this in his presentation to our club several weeks back. Im intrigued by your endeavour. Have you had success with this?

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[Andy Sager]

I don't remember how I did them all those years ago but I recently saw my buddy's setup and how small his fish were and changing colors. I don't have the exact setup as he has so I need to try it a bit differently.

 

[coralbandit]

Am I supposed to give away ALL my secrets??? Who will buy my book then ( if I write one. )

Actually, it's light spectrum as much as light hours.

^This guy^ make erroneous comments on salt water threads also..
What does he know about spectrum and duration???
You better share!
I'll buy the book or just mail you money$ either way...

 

[Andy Sager]

^This guy^ make erroneous comments on salt water threads also..
What does he know about spectrum and duration???
You better share!
I'll buy the book or just mail you money$ either way...

You make me giggle.

 

[Andy Sager]

Well I was correct, Plecos spawned last night. They make me laugh tho. The male is tucked away nicely in his "tube cave" but the egg mass was clear on the other side of the tank. What's this guy's problem?? Anyway, I put a larger airstone in the tank for better circulation and will see how that goes. If the mass is still in good shape in 2 days, I'll remove it and hatch them in a bucket or jar so I can put the fry into a nice full tank of algae.

 

[Andy Sager]

There was some more excitement in the hatchery today. Another pair of F1s formed in the pairing off tank. Yesterday, I noticed a small gold female ( I saw tube ) start to peck at the slate I had in the tank. I've seen this before a while back so I wasn't totally excited but ....ya never know. So there were 3 other fish milling around the slate and 2 of them had their tubes exposed ( males ) so I was cautiously hopeful. I watched the fish for a while and noticed there was no clear male claiming rights so I just let whatever happened happen. Today, the "watchers" went down to 2 fish and thankfully, one was one of the new Golds with the orange/ red crown that I had recently introduced into the tank but the larger fish was a rather blah looking Gold so I was really hoping she didn't pair with him. Looks like I got my wish. Today, as she was spawning, I watched that larger male just follow her and eat the eggs as she was laying them. So I quickly added a divider and left the hopeful pair together without any distractions. Throughout the day I went over to check them out and watched as both fish did their parts as the spawn happened. After some deliberation, I decided to pull the spawn to do both a fertility test and to see if I could get these fry to free swim. So we will have to wait and see.

The egg mass from the Plecos is still showing no white eggs after 36ish hours. I can't believe the parents are really just letting that mass move all over the tank but I was assured by my friend that they know those eggs are there and not to worry. Again, I watched the pair throughout the day and saw both the male and female spend time near the egg mass so so far, I have nothing to worry about. Glad I removed the Angels that were with them in the tank before. Now, if there is a problem, it reduces who is to blame.

I got 2 other spawns today from my old pairs as well. I look at the Koi/GM pair a bit differently now as I really would like to keep a lot of their fry now that I know they turn into Kois (but not until they are much older than selling size ) . At some point, I'm sure mixing these fish back to their parent and siblings will create my own strain of Koi Angels.

So now I am really getting backed up on available tanks for growing and holding these fish. I now have 18 breeding pairs which is just too many so some decisions need to made pretty soon. I just don't know which pairs to get rid of yet. I want them all!!!! You see, this was how I outgrew 2 warehouses in under 2 years. The fish just kept making babies.

 

[unstopaBULLFish]

Well you are going to an auction... Hint Hint *Cough Cough* Wink Wink*


Sent via the power of my aching thumbs
Cn

 

[Andy Sager]

Yes but I am not set up to have my fish in an unopened bag for longer than 3 hours so this auction is out of the question for me.

 

[Andy Sager]

One of the nice things about the pleco eggs not being in the cave is that I can candle them and watch their development. I did that today and saw that every egg I can see ( about 25-30 of them) all have a blood vein in them. A nice difference from their last spawn when only 4 hatched and of those 4, only 1 survived. So now I am really looking forward to seeing these guys hatch in another day or 2. ( I need more plecos to go into some algae filled tanks. )
Yesterday's Gold spawn is still doing great. A few dead eggs but not many as yet. I know it sounds bad but I really don't care if this spawn survives but I just want to see if they free swim being that it's their first spawn and these fish have been being fed a better diet all along. Swimming fry would help me tremendously answer some questions.

Also today ( as I am typing this actually), the Red Cap is spawning with her new Gold marble male ( finally ). I do have 2 other spawns from a similar pairing ( I believe the 2 males are brothers) so it will be interesting to see 1) if they survive and 2) if they look any different from the ones I have already. Now that I know they take quite a while to color up with the red, these will not be for sale until they are much older ( if they survive.) The goal is to create more Red Caps so I need to experiment crossing the siblings and crossing back to the mother.

It's funny how 2 pairs of Angels can be so different when it comes to rearing their spawns. The pair that produces the koi fish are still vigorously careing for their eggs while the other pair, The Marble/ GM ( with the both females being sisters) already ate theirs. Both these pairs are prolific spawners so I am not worried at this point of the lost spawn but it just goes to show how there is no 1 answer for these fish as to how they will act and why.

That's enough for now. I need to go back and watch my pleco eggs develop some more.

 

[Andy Sager]

So the Pleco eggs are still going strong. Expect them to hatch tomorrow.
The 2 spawns I pulled are both doing fine still as well. Hopefully they too will hatch tomorrow then it's the waiting game to see if the fry swim.

I culled a number of tanks today and saw that I let way too many fish survive longer than I should have. When you are trying to make some money at this, waiting to cull costs you. All the food these fish have consumed, the water changes, the space they have taken up keeping the other fish from growing.... all costs money. Let that be a lesson to those trying to breed for more than just fun. Cull sooner.

Today also started the lighting experiment on the 1/2 black fry. There are about 40 to 50 fry now about 5 weeks old and in a 75 gal vat by themselves. This should maximize growth and hopefully their turning 1/2 Black and keeping the pattern.

 

[sinibotia]

So, how do you cull, Andy?

 

[Andy Sager]

So, how do you cull, Andy?

With a bucket and a net and 1 fish at a time. If the fish doesn't have the correct finnage or things are bent or missing, in the bucket it goes and to the friend's tank as food.

 

[Fishobsessed7]

Hey Andy. Apparently I have a pair of angels, and they laid eggs tonight. But, they are on the filter intake. Will the vibrations cause problems? Should I turn off the filter?


Fishobsessed7

Money Can't Buy Happiness, But It Can Buy Fish Which Is Pretty Much The Same Thing

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy. Apparently I have a pair of angels, and they laid eggs tonight. But, they are on the filter intake. Will the vibrations cause problems? Should I turn off the filter?


Fishobsessed7

Money Can't Buy Happiness, But It Can Buy Fish Which Is Pretty Much The Same Thing

Typically, and sadly, many first time Angel spawns are on filter intake tubes which makes them harder to deal with as the tank needs the filter to keep it clean. Many of these spawns are also unsuccessful because of this reason. I have a theory that because it's on the intake tubes, the milt doesn't have a chance to fertilize the eggs before being swept away but this is just my theory as first time spawners also don't have a good success rate no matter what filters you use. But some do, and that's why I recommend artificially hatching the eggs to see if they were ever fertilized or if the pair is even fertile at all.
Getting back to your questions: No, the vibrations shouldn't be an issue and unless you have other filtration, you shouldn't turn off the filter. If your goal is not to breed the fish, I'd just let nature take it's course as other fish in the tank will try ( and usually eventually succeed) to eat the eggs which happen to be a very good food source for your fish. If the eggs all die, the parents will eat them as well. FYI: If the eggs turn white, they are dead.

One of the nice things about Angelfish is that they are usually prolific breeders so if the last spawn was unsuccessful, chances are you will have another chance at getting it right in about 10-14 days for new breeders. If your goal is to raise some Angelfish fry, I strongly suggest you put the pair in a tank by themselves with just a sponge filter, some artificial plants with smaller leaves ( so the fish don't spawn on them) and a breeding site such as Slate, Tile, Clay Pot or PVC pipe for example. If you would like the parents to try raising the fry, I would use at least a 20gal long tank or a 29 gal. If you are going to remove the eggs and hatch them yourself, the spawning tank can be as small as a 10 gal tank depending on the size of the breeding pair. Either way, an air driven sponge filter is the best way I have found to produce more fry successfully. If you would like more information on breeding Angels, there is a thread here in the breeding forum titled " Wigglers at last!!!" which is all about breeding and raising Angelfish by pro & hobbyist breeders. Just about everything you need to know was discussed on that thread so it should help you out.
A word of caution, if your goal is not to breed the pair, I would still remove them from your tank, if it is a community tank, as breeding pairs of Angels can become extremely aggressive towards their tank mates when spawning time approaches. They can and have killed tank mates trying to protect their eggs. These are not usually one of the gentler Cichlid species that can breed in a community tank.

Hope this helps.

 

[sinibotia]

Hey Andy, have you ever had rust on your spawning slates? I got some slate at home depot yesterday for my angelfish and this morning there was a bit of rust on it. I took it out for now but I'm getting a lot of conflicting information as to whether or not I should worry about it.

 

[Andy Sager]

Was pleasantly surprised last night at the evening feeding. The pleco eggs all hatched. I wound up leaving the eggs in the parent's tank so I don't know for sure just how many are actually in there but I counted 36 fry just from what I could see. So at least I know that the food I have been feeding these fish is not adversely effecting them. This is only their 5th spawn ever and this is their second with more than 35 fry. Hopefully, if they all make it, I will have clean up crews for all my tanks. The ones I have so far have been excellent at keeping the glass slime away. What a pleasure when doing water changes.

Well, the new pair of Gold Angels were a huge success. Their spawn hatched yesterday and once again, another first time breeding pair had a hatch rate of over 90%. This only shows that when in the right conditions, first time breeders don't always have unsuccessful spawns.

Today, the newest male for the Red Cap showed that that he too was worth his metal. That spawn is hatching as we speak and there were not many dead eggs on this slate either. Now is the waiting game to see if they swim. I wish i was further along with this experiment because....... I had a new trio spawn yesterday. It was mayhem for sure. I mentioned the other day that I put 3 females in with the injured ( and now recovered) Zebra Veil male. Well 2 of the females ( Barred Marble Veil sisters) had a go with him last night. I happened to catch some of the action at feeding time and the third female was just eating the eggs as they were being laid so she was removed. Today I see that there are a whole bunch of eggs on that slate and not many white ones. Haven't decided yet whether to pull the spawn or not. I'd hate to get my hopes up only to have them dashed if they don't swim. We'll see.

The 1/2 Black experiment is still going strong. The fry seem to be adjusting to their new huge living quarters and coming to the surface for feeding. Now I wait ( and do water changes. )

Still waiting for some more Cory eggs so nothing new on that front. The Guppy fry are all growing but I found the first female's fry had a larger occurrence of bent spines so I don't have many good ones from her but the second female's fry only had 1 or 2 deformed fish. Considering I have about 25 fry from the second pair, the 1 or 2 is not much to complain about but with there only being about 8 fry from the first one, 1 or 2 is a high amount.
A number of them are starting to get the black coloration of their father but I see it takes longer for these hybrid ones to color up opposed to the 1/2 Black females. Their fry come out almost looking 1/2 Black from the start. Will just have to wait and see just how large these fish actually get.


Lastly, if there are any Koi Angel breeders that are producing fry in larger amounts reading this, please chime in here or PM me. I have a couple questions. Thanks

 

[Andy Sager]

Hey Andy, have you ever had rust on your spawning slates? I got some slate at home depot yesterday for my angelfish and this morning there was a bit of rust on it. I took it out for now but I'm getting a lot of conflicting information as to whether or not I should worry about it.

No, I haven't. I would actually be a little leery of using it if there were rust coming from the slate itself opposed to it being on the slate from another source. Rust is just oxidizing metals so if there is metal in the slate ( although I am not sure why there would be), who knows what else it is leaching so I would use something else. Now if the rust is just a stain from drippings, I would get myself some CLR or similar product and clean it off before using the slate. Personally, I used the CLR on my vats to remove some rust stains and flushed the heck out of them with water and the fish all are doing fine in the vats. In your case, if you do use CLR, I would just use some PRIME in the tank you use it in just to be on the safe side.

Hope this helps.

 

[PoppaRyno]

Whats your questions abt koi angels?

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