Myth: Goldfish have shorter life spans in warmer waters.

[Fluff]

zacdl, I fail to see your argument. No one offering solid comments on your thread has disagreed with what your good professor has said. They've only offered solid reasons why they shouldn't be kept in warmer water. Not that they can't be. And personally, I feel this thread was started not to debate anything, but to try and prove others wrong, just because one "all knowing professor" tells you otherwise. If it's really opinions you wanted, well, you got them. Now your being offensive and ignorant. Go figure. Personally, I go from my experience with goldfish and my fish kept outdoors in a pond do far better and have lived years longer than any fish I've kept indoors in a heated area. Just my experience. And as for your argument on fish not doing as well outside in the winter? Did you not read where your professor stated that slow temp changes are better. The water in a pond does not change drastically but is a slow change. So, since your asking for opinions, mine is they do in fact live longer and are healthier in a cold water enviroment. They don't like warm water and this is why my fish lay on the bottom of the pond on warmer days, its' cooler there. Your last post about the earth and what not, that is just rubbish and this thread pretty much lost all validity for me.

 

[Rach101]

If you use that reasoning... Back when everyone thought the earth was flat, and someone came and proved otherwise... was that an opinion?

Heck no, not an opinion.

This isnt his opinion either, its science

And science can be proved wrong, just as fast as opinions can. Now im not saying hes wrong, im just saying if you are going to take that approach, then heck, everything that man says could be proved wrong in a hundred years.

I will remove myself from this thread for it to remain family friendly.

 

[zacdl]

Actually I started this thread to see what your agrument was, and so far it seems like there isnt any argument whatsoever... As for the oxygen... thats not an argument.

The only valid argument I see in here is greenmajis. Metabolism. It might make them live their lives faster, but even as he said, it wont hardly be noticible.

As for winter...
Its a faster temperature change than having no temperature change, right?

 

[zacdl]

And science can be proved wrong, just as fast as opinions can.

Hey, we actually have someone that knows about that!

You know I was actually going to say just that in that last post... but desided against it (Wanted to see if anyone would bring this up, or not)

Truth of it is (and the chemist says this too) Science cannot prove anything. Period, end of story. It seems like alot of people think that science CAN prove things, but it just cannot. Science has "proved" things before, just to turn around and be proved wrong.

But! Nonetheless... Science CAN make some good points, and some of the more accurate ones at that.

From experiance, testing, observations, they concluded that goldfish can, indeed live in warmer waters without their lives being shortened (And goldfish indoors is rare, they get way too big for most normal aquariums, and that is one good reason why there arent any that actually live a full live in an aquarium, because they are stunted)


Obviously... Science has some good points on gravity, what it does, what it does not, what it acts like, and so on. Those are visual observations that you cannot error.
Same point here, goldfish have been observed to not do this stuff.

Now its opinions and "I think"s (such as, the earth is flat) that you really cannot hold to anything, its these guesses that are proved wrong.

The earth is flat... The observed what they thought. They could not see that the earth was round, so it must be flat. Their observations were valid, their assumptions, or guesses, were not.


BTW did I tell you how happy I am that someone else knows science can be proved wrong? lol, I can count on 1 hand the number of people that belive that science can be proved wrong, so many people hold science as something that cant be proved wrong.
Rach........ Kudos to you!

 

[rubysoho]

In the winter the goldfish/koi metabolism slows down and just like bears they go into a sort of hibernation. Did you actually look up the different oxygen saturation level for the temperature of 70 degrees and the temerature of 80? If so, please share these figures with us and the source. You also have to think that even if there is a small difference does not mean that does not have an impact on the fish.

By going with what your professor has said then ALL fish could be kept at really any reasonable temperature but people with experience in dealing with different kinds of fish know this is not true. Some fish thrive in colder temperatures but are more susceptible to disease (a sign of stress) when in warmer waters, even if the temp. had been adjusted slowly. The opposite goes for other fish. Most tropical fish slow down and are more prone to ick and other bacterial infections when the water is too cool.

 

[Fluff]

zacdl, you are so full of it and all your back pedalling and rewording is really exhausting. Again, since Rach decided to argue with you, it just goes to prove my thoughts that you just wanted to start something. *sigh*

 

[zacdl]

Did you actually look up the different oxygen saturation level for the temperature of 70 degrees and the temerature of 80?

Yep. Dont remember the figures, a few years ago I did testing on my pond for oxygen, when it was lacking in that area. I tested it in the spring, summer, and fall (Temps going from 50-80 deg in those seasons) and never any changes in it.



As for reply to the second part...

You guys were calling 76 "Warm Water" for goldfish. Saying it would shorten their lives living at an aquarium temperature like that.

But... 76 (Like has been shown) will not harm goldfish the least bit.

Now.. I dont mean if the temp gets to 90 the goldfish will be fine, by no means is that true! Once you start getting too hot (85+)the fish obviously cannot live in that warm of water and die in a day or two depending on the temperature. Only way to keep this temp down is to shade it (IF its a pond) and water changes, really. Or if its a pond just turn a hose onto a trickle and leave it on 24/7, so there is always cool water going into the pond.

 

[Jchillin]

OK So I emailed a friend of mine. He happens to have been a university professor, he has written MANY science books, has a PHD in Nuclear Chemistry. This is one guy who knows the ins and outs of almost every science.

So I decided to shoot him an email about this goldfish thing.

His response:

The biggest problem for goldfish, is a RAPID change in temperature. While they can adjust to many temperatures, they need time to make that adjustment. Thus, the worst thing you can do for your
goldfish is purposely increase or decrease the temperature quickly.

I asked him about whether their life spans were shorter in warmer waters... Nope. He said the main thing to realize is that quote above.

So- "Myth- Goldfish are "coldwater" fish that when put in warmer waters (76- average aquarium temperature) will shorten their life span.

In reading the above, I see you chose to quote part of his email response and when it came to the question about warmer temps..."see above for the answer" is stated. It's not within the quote.

To be fair, when you mention that you are quoting someone's response, it would do everyone a world of good to quote the entire response, not a selected portion of it.

Sorry but due to that missing element, the subject loses it's validity.

 

[zacdl]

I said
He said the main thing to realize is that quote above.

Which is slow temperatures.

Warmer waters means 76, in my email to him I included that bit of info.

In case you dont know I know him a little bit and he included some other questions I had about other things in there too and did not want to paste the whole email. The majority of the goldfish part was info you guys already know. The temps that are reccomended for goldfish, living conditions, that sort of thing. Stuff which you can find anywhere on the internet, I just pasted the part pertaining to your claim of shorter life span.

 

[rubysoho]

Alright, I went out and found the calculations myself. Plus a little extra info.

70*F (21.11*C) has an oxygen saturation level of 8.896 mg/L
80*F (26.67*C) has an oxygen saturation level of 8.016 mg/L

both salinity and elevation have an affect. Salt decreases the amount of oxygen and the high the elevation, the lower the amount of oxygen.

source: http://aquanic.org/images/tools/oxygen.htm


Next, I found this page which specifically speaks about the effect temperature has on koi (a relative of the goldfish, both bred for cooler water). Here is a direct quote and I also will add a link to the page for anyone interested in reading the entire article:

Fish are remarkably well adapted for extracting oxygen from the very low concentrations found in water. The rate of oxygen consumption by Koi is closely related to the water temperature. Koi are "cold blooded", that is, their body temperature is essentially that of their environment. Their metabolic activities are basically enzyme-catalyzed chemical reactions that are temperature dependent. The metabolism and activity increase with temperature which increases their oxygen demand. There is both an optimum and maximum temperature at which the Koi live and function. At optimum temperature, oxygen consumption is high because of rapid growth and significant activity. Above this optimum temperature, the fish start to experience stress. This stress triggers their warning and defense systems which require a very high oxygen consumption. Unfortunately, as we saw above, the amount of oxygen available in the water also decreases with temperature. The combination of these two events normally limit the maximum temperature at which the Koi can survive.


Effects:

The minimum limiting oxygen concentrations for a fish is dependent upon its genetic makeup, water temperature, level of activity, long term acclimation, and stress tolerance. Water with an oxygen concentration of less than 3 mg/l will generally not support fish. When concentrations fall to about 3-4 mg/L, fish start gasping for air at the surface or huddle around the water fall (higher concentration points). Bio-converter bacteria may start to die off dumping toxins into the water compounding the lack of oxygen to the fish. Levels between 3 and 5 mg/l can normally be tolerated for short periods. Young Koi are less tolerant of low oxygen than the older, larger ones. Above 5 mg/l, almost all aquatic organisms can survive indefinitely, provided other environmental parameters are within allowable limits. Whereas the fish are reasonably comfortable and healthy at 5-6 mg/L concentrations, many people consider the efficiency of the bio-converter to be at maximum only when the water entering the bio-converter media is near oxygen saturation. Ideally, our ponds should be at or near oxygen saturation at all times.

source: http://www.vcnet.com/koi_net/do.html

So, from that you see it is a combination of both for the need of oxygen and a higher saturation as well as an affect temperature has on the fish's metabolism.

 

[Jchillin]

This is the part that is at issue:

I asked him about whether their life spans were shorter in warmer waters... Nope. He said the main thing to realize is that quote above.

That appears to be something that occurred after you recieved his email. The terminology you used is in the past tense.

 

[TomK2]

zacdl-
relax a bit! We are discussing fishkeeping and the logic and science behind it, and not ideology. I think you are reacting to the perceived disrepect posters showed toward your learned and respectable source. I was one of them, even though I tried to state clearly I was only joking. But since I reallly don't know your or your source well enough, I accept that jokes are easily misconstrued and a bad idea. I hold several advanced degrees myself, so perhaps that is why I am not awed by such degrees. Please beleive that just because a PHD does not impress me, of and by itself, I in no way meant to imply that your professor friend was not many times smarter and more knowlegble than myself or anyone else. I also am not saying he is incorrect either. No insult was intended. Any points I end up not agreeing on should also not be seen as disrespect.

I like greenmaji's idea of the temperature affecting metabolism, and have no reason to suppose this is not true, know that temperature does effect fish metabolism, but don't know how important it might be. Obviously, temperature is important for the fish! If it weren't, we would not heat our tanks at all. We could keep the fish at whatever temp was convenient for us with no consequences. I do not beleive this to be true. Just because I can not point out to you the exact biochemical or genetic reason is not an argument to say its not true. The experience of fishkeepers now and in the past should not be discounted so lightly.

lets try an analogy. Humans live by the sea. humans live in the Himalaya mountains too. Some sea level humans can go up in the mountains, adapt, and live there. Many will have health problems related to such a move, but probably not all of them. Why is this? The temperature, the oxygen levels, the climate, the food are different there. The sea level humans have not had to adapt to the high altitude conditions, and so would not be as suited to those conditions as the Sherpas are. I suppost that the same can be inferred of goldfish, but I do not know this to be true.

 

[zacdl]

Well I am telling you when I tested my pond there were no changes in oxygen whatsoever. Maybe you need a tester and to take a year to measure it, instead of using online tools that arent as accurate?

Now... all that article says is what was already addressed here. Higher temp= higher oxygen usage.
Now... if you are owning a goldfish you should have proper equipment to keep the oxygen high enough.
If you are owning goldfih you wouldnt overstock either...

So back to the original question... How would warm water shorten a goldfish life? The Scientist says it wont, and you havent said why it would (other than lack of oxygen... which that wont SHORTEN a life that would just kill it, and besides that if it has lack of oxygen you are not taking proper care of the goldfish anyway.)

 

[TomK2]

Rubysoho- Kudos to you! I have read that info before, but it was a long time ago. 70 to 80 degrees causes about a 10% change in disolved oxygen, I would not have thought it would be that much. Awesome info finding skills!

 

[tetrin]

excellent analogy tom.
zacdl, the art of fish-keeping is quite elusive. there are a number of factors that determine the lifespan of fishes in confinement. please do not try to nullify the experience gained by more than a century of fish-keeping experience. unless you carry out an experiment with two control groups with only temperature being the control parameter, do not try to pass off any judgement any expect people to believe you.

it seems evolution is a outdated theory to you. so, i really do not care who the professor is, but unless you show me some good logic, i'm not ready to believe anything.

 

[rubysoho]

hmm, try reading the entire quote instead of skimming it.

I will quote again the part you did not read:

. Their metabolic activities are basically enzyme-catalyzed chemical reactions that are temperature dependent. The metabolism and activity increase with temperature which increases their oxygen demand. There is both an optimum and maximum temperature at which the Koi live and function. At optimum temperature, oxygen consumption is high because of rapid growth and significant activity. Above this optimum temperature, the fish start to experience stress. This stress triggers their warning and defense systems which require a very high oxygen consumption. Unfortunately, as we saw above, the amount of oxygen available in the water also decreases with temperature. The combination of these two events normally limit the maximum temperature at which the Koi can survive.

*edit* thanks, TomK2.

 

[zacdl]

I asked him about whether their life spans were shorter in warmer waters... Nope. He said the main thing to realize is that quote above.

Actually I didnt write that very well, shouldve been written more clearly..

But at any rate... he said they wont be. Should I get you that direct quote? Should I have him email me a direct-to-the-point-answer for you guys????

lets try an analogy. Humans live by the sea. humans live in the Himalaya mountains too. Some sea level humans can go up in the mountains, adapt, and live there. Many will have health problems related to such a move, but probably not all of them. Why is this? The temperature, the oxygen levels, the climate, the food are different there. The sea level humans have not had to adapt to the high altitude conditions, and so would not be as suited to those conditions as the Sherpas are. I suppost that the same can be inferred of goldfish, but I do not know this to be true.

But you can adapt. Just like he said, the goldfish can adapt to the temperature given enough time.

Rubysoho- Kudos to you! I have read that info before, but it was a long time ago. 70 to 80 degrees causes about a 10% change in disolved oxygen, I would not have thought it would be that much. Awesome info finding skills!

Says a calculator thats how old? lol.
Like I said when I tested it a couple years ago (Same tester still used today, not outdated) there was NO change.

But nonetheless... this isnt a topic about how much oxygen is in water it is about TEMPERATURE.



And I did, read that entire article as well.


Ive still to yet see anything here that shows how their lives will be shorted if they are living in waters around 76.
Just two possibilities right now which arent too strong- Metabolism, good theory, but if this is true it wont be noticible age differance, as greenmaji said.
Oxygen- Providing you arent overstocking or have not enough water flow (And if you dont you should not be keeping goldfish) this will not be a problem.

So... Metabolism is the best theory right now.... Is that what you guys want to stick with? I can email him once more and use the Metabolism theory, as that is the only valid one in here so far.

 

[rubysoho]

I'm done here. Let me know when you want to be an adult and have a real discussion. If you want to get nitty-gritty, you have not given ANY real empirical evidence to counter point ANY of the facts people have actually taken the time to support with evidence.

 

[zacdl]

Your oxygen numbers... I counter with my readings never changins.

I never disagreed with oxygen goign down when temperature goes up, that is obviously what you are stuck on still

Here is the thing... I know I am a poor typer and miss some things or dont type certain things that would make things a little clearer (I know my posts are confusing at times) I think it and not type it if you know what I mean...

Anywhere here goes...

Temperature supposedly decreases oxygen, which is your argument right? That oxygen running out will shorten the life of the fish. I have a few things on this..
#1- If oxygen runs out the fish is dead. This doesnt shorten the life over time, this will occur within mins of oxygen running out

#2- If you dont have sufficiant oxygen input to the water, you should not be attempting to keep goldfish. Its like God having "human tanks" and he throws people in there, and gives us food and water and oxygen to live. What if he throws us in there without good enough oxygen? He wouldnt do that, because its not enough oxygen in there to keep something alive.

#3- You are stuck on this not-enough-oxygen thing. In reality there is enough oxygen in the water at 76 to keep a goldfish alive, provided you have good circulation and water movement to keep oxygen high.

 

[tetrin]

But you can adapt. Just like he said, the goldfish can adapt to the temperature given enough time.

its this process of adatation, dear, that takes some time. and that time is not measured by a single goldie's lifespan, but by a generation of them. to make their metabolism adapted to warmer water, they need to go through specific changes that are real slow by our standards of time. so, the poor guy would already be dead by the time it even tries to adapt.