UPDATED API Test Results for 10 AND 60 Gallon...

[ArtesiaWells]

Okay. Just finished running the API freshwater master tests on both the 10 and 60 gallons, both of which are still presumably cycling, and I'd like to report on them to get some analysis and feedback from you great guys and gals...

These tests come on the heels of a water change just done on the 60 gallon -- an approximate 20 or so percent this past Monday -- and, after subsequently getting what I perceived as alarming results on the 10 gallon just now, I have performed a 50% change on that tank, dosing of course with Prime prior to the fresh water going in...

Here is what I found:

60 Gallon Results (tank contains one Black Moor goldfish):

AMMONIA: 0.25 (definitely jumped a bit from the last reading -- but I don't know if this is from the Moor excreting more waste, which is clearly visible, or from the tank just naturally cycling and the ammonia level beginning to spike)

NITRITE: 0

NITRATE: 0

10 Gallon Results (tank contains three fancy goldfish; two very small varities and a somewhat larger Red Cap Oranda):

AMMONIA: 0.50

NITRITE: VERY high and VERY purple in color -- so it's on the high end of the range based on the color chart; the purple was almost alarming in shade, and I couldn't even get a clear reading on where it fell number wise...

NITRATE: 5.0-10 ppm

Based on the results of the 10 gallon, in particular, I did an immediate 50% water change on that tank -- but how do these numbers look now some two or so weeks into the cycle (the 60 gallon)? Was it good, or okay, that I did the immediate water change on the 10? Does the 60 need another change based on the ammonia reading? As I stated, I just did a 20% or so on this tank this past Monday...

As always, thank you everyone!

 

[Andrew McFadden]

They are both still in cycle. Keep an eye on the bigger one if the ammonia goes above that reading change water. The 10 is not good at all and keep testing everyday and change water as needed imo

 

[jlk]

I agree here. Keep a close eye on the 60g & water changes will be necessary if the ammonia starts to climb any higher. I personally would do another wc anyway just to drop this number lower because Prime is only effective for a 24-48hr period of time. The heavily overstocked 10g is lethal right now even using Prime- remember, its only effective up to 2ppm. The damage nitrites cause occurs at a cellular level- they outcompete oxygen in a fish's hemoglobin (red blood) cells & fish is essentially physically starved of oxygen (to its organs, tissues, brain....). You may not see symptoms now but damage is happening. Ammonia is no less damaging either. Water changes, water changes, water changes on this small tank until you can get the nitrites under control (.25ppm or less). Once again, I would strongly recommend moving the two smaller fish to the 60g.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Thanks for the quick reply, both of you...

I realize the 10 gallon was in a very bad state -- thus why I immediately did the 50% change after taking the readings. But another part of me said "well, these numbers could possibly be normal because the tanks ARE in a state of cycle...and these numbers are supposed to spike before they stabilize..." so I thought MAYBE this was okay...

How can I tell if this is a matter of a cycle going through its process, or a matter of the stocking load causing off the wall test results? JLK -- I know you and many others want me to move the other two goldies to the 60 gallon, but I am afraid of leaving the Oranda alone in that 10...

Let's get down to it: I did a 50% change on the 10 gallon just now. Was that okay to do? And JLK is suggesting a change on the 60 as well -- even though I just did one on Monday, should this be a big or small change?

And what about NITRITE and NITRATE readings on the 60 -- are these normal and okay at 0?

 

[Andrew McFadden]

Thanks for the quick reply, both of you...

I realize the 10 gallon was in a very bad state -- thus why I immediately did the 50% change after taking the readings. But another part of me said "well, these numbers could possibly be normal because the tanks ARE in a state of cycle...and these numbers are supposed to spike before they stabilize..." so I thought MAYBE this was okay...

How can I tell if this is a matter of a cycle going through its process, or a matter of the stocking load causing off the wall test results? JLK -- I know you and many others want me to move the other two goldies to the 60 gallon, but I am afraid of leaving the Oranda alone in that 10...

Let's get down to it: I did a 50% change on the 10 gallon just now. Was that okay to do? And JLK is suggesting a change on the 60 as well -- even though I just did one on Monday, should this be a big or small change?

And what about NITRITE and NITRATE readings on the 60 -- are these normal and okay at 0?

How can I tell if this is a matter of a cycle going through its process, or a matter of the stocking load causing off the wall test results?
Most all overstocked tanks can do a weekly 50%-75% water change and not have this problem. As far as stocking the type of fish you have and tank size I'm not the one to ask.


And what about NITRITE and NITRATE readings on the 60 -- are these normal and okay at 0?[/QUOTE]


What tells me is that it has ammonia and no nitrates. All cycles tanks have some nitrates in it.

Let's get down to it: I did a 50% change on the 10 gallon just now. Was that okay to do

Sure was the best thing, you dont want the ammonia and nitrates to get over 0. If it is a water change is needed

- even though I just did one on Monday, should this be a big or small change?

With it not being that high I would think a 30% change would take care of that. What jlk is saying is the prime is done working so you should do a water change before it gets worse. I didn't even think about that till he said it. And I agree with it

Your water should be reading 0 ammonia 0 nitrites under 40 nitrates if its above those numbers a water change is needed

 

[jlk]

On the 10g, its the cycle process and the stocking overload. Due to the hefty bioload in the 10g, it may not ever properly cycle if it remains heavily overstocked. Theres only so much real estate for beneficial bacteria to grow on in a 10g and the bacteria that are in there are being a bit overwhelmed. The oranda will be fine by himself and you will decrease the bioload tremendously if you move the two smaller fancies which will make the tank easier to cycle instead of almost impossible. He will benefit in the long run by not being exposed to high toxin levels.

A 50%wc on the 10g is fine. Retest your numbers in about 20mins- if they are still high, do another and even possibily a third. As I said, personally, I would do a water change on the 60g. Others may not agree but as you already know, I am big on water changes! The zero nitrites & nitrates on the 60g just indicates you have not started the cycling process on the 60g yet. You have ammonia but you havent developed sufficient bacteria to convert it to nitrite & nitrate yet.

 

[Laser]

Unless they are really small, I agree 3 fancies in a 10 is going to be hard to get cycled. I was growing out 30 cory fry in a 10g and after awhile as they got bigger I just could not keep the nitrIte levels down, so I see where JLK is coming from with this. It's a tank that I keep cycled with 4ppm of ammonia so I know it had established a good colony of bacteria.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Most all overstocked tanks can do a weekly 50%-75% water change and not have this problem. As far as stocking the type of fish you have and tank size I'm not the one to ask.

Huh?

What tells me is that it has ammonia and no nitrates. All cycles tanks have some nitrates in it.

Okay -- so let me get this straight because it seems a bit contradicting to what is said at the end of your post: a cycled tank will have SOME nitrates in it, and will NOT be at a cold "0" ppm?

Sure was the best thing, you dont want the ammonia and nitrates to get over 0. If it is a water change is needed

But aren't these parameters going to reach beyond 0 when the cycle begins?

With it not being that high I would think a 30% change would take care of that. What jlk is saying is the prime is done working so you should do a water change before it gets worse. I didn't even think about that till he said it. And I agree with it

I understand what (she) JLK was saying regarding the Prime -- at any rate, I did a 10 or so percent change on the 60 just to maybe get some of that ammonia down...

Your water should be reading 0 ammonia 0 nitrites under 40 nitrates if its above those numbers a water change is needed

Oh, okay -- my mistake; earlier I had written (above) that something you suggested here was contradicting something else you had written, but I see now you say nitrates should be UNDER 40, not at a constant 0...

My mistake and apologies.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

On the 10g, its the cycle process and the stocking overload.

Okay. THAT'S what I wanted to know.

Due to the hefty bioload in the 10g, it may not ever properly cycle if it remains heavily overstocked.

Oh, Jesus H. Christ on a Saltine Cracker...don't tell me that...you're saying I may NEVER achieve a healthy cycle in this smaller aquarium?

Theres only so much real estate for beneficial bacteria to grow on in a 10g and the bacteria that are in there are being a bit overwhelmed.

The oranda will be fine by himself and you will decrease the bioload tremendously if you move the two smaller fancies which will make the tank easier to cycle instead of almost impossible. He will benefit in the long run by not being exposed to high toxin levels.

But that wasn't our plan initially -- we purchased the two small goldies so the Oranda would have company as well as to use them as a test of his aggressive behavior, after being taken out of the 60 when he attacked the other two fantails that died. We wanted to cycle the 60 again slowly, and would have done it WITHOUT fish if we didn't need a place for the surviving Black Moor to go...now, you're asking me to move two more fish into the 60 that's still cycling, leaving the Oranda alone in the 10, which still doesn't address a problem that still exists and one I don't have a clue as how to tackle: The Oranda is most definitely growing -- there is distinct, obvious body swelling/growth (not unhealthy/sick swelling), development of the fantail and wen/Red Cap growth. Even if we keep him in the 10 gallon alone, he is quickly outgrowing this tank -- yet he STILL shows aggressive tendencies towards one of the smaller fish with him at times, chasing him and nose-diving right into his behind like he did before he killed off the other two in the 60. What am I supposed to do with this guy?

A 50%wc on the 10g is fine. Retest your numbers in about 20mins- if they are still high, do another and even possibily a third.

I didn't retest after the change...

As I said, personally, I would do a water change on the 60g. Others may not agree but as you already know, I am big on water changes!

Per your tip, I went ahead and did an approximate 10% change on the 60 gallon just to get some of the ammonia down and some fresh water into the Moor's tank; I didn't, however, retest with the API kit...

The zero nitrites & nitrates on the 60g just indicates you have not started the cycling process on the 60g yet. You have ammonia but you havent developed sufficient bacteria to convert it to nitrite & nitrate yet.

I see; thank you...so, what's the procedure for the 60 gallon at this point? Just keep testing and doing the changes as necessary?

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Unless they are really small, I agree 3 fancies in a 10 is going to be hard to get cycled. I was growing out 30 cory fry in a 10g and after awhile as they got bigger I just could not keep the nitrIte levels down, so I see where JLK is coming from with this.

Thanks Laser...

Well, two of the fancy goldies are very small -- perhaps a tad bigger than feeder size -- and the third is a steadily growing, aggressive and spunky Red Cap Oranda (please see some of my horrendously long threads throughout this forum about what happened previously to my 60 gallon goldfish tank due to this one Red Cap)...so the sizing I didn't think was a problem here...

Until I saw those ridiculously off-the-charts results today...

It's a tank that I keep cycled with 4ppm of ammonia so I know it had established a good colony of bacteria.

Not sure if I know what this means...

 

[blert]

Wow, this is a convoluted thread. Let's sum up...

First, the ten gallon with three Goldfish.
JLK is right, this tank will never be able to accommodate three Goldfish. You will likely always have a toxin issue as Goldfish just get too large and produce too much waste. Even if it ever get to the point where the bio-filter can handle all of the ammonia and resulting nitrite you will always have a nitrate and water quality issue and the end result for the fish is not good.

As for the 60 gallon... It is starting to show ammonia because the fish is producing it. Try to keep it low, 0.25ppm or below is a good target. Maintain a weekly water change schedule and let your daily tests determine the frequency and size of any extra water changes you may need to do. If you test at 1.0ppm ammonia then you need to do a 75% PWC to bring it back down to 0.25ppm. Once you start to show nitrite you will want to follow the same procedure. When the ammonia and nitrite stay at zero your bio-filter has matured enough to handle the current waste load. When you add more fish your bio-filter will have to catch up so the daily testing will begin again. Your weekly water change and maintenance schedule will be how the end resulting nitrate is exported from the tank.

Now, about those Goldfish. JLK is right again (like anybody thought she wasn't ). The cramped conditions in your ten gallon is not making the aggression issues any better. It is actually probably only going to get worse as the other fish have nowhere to hide from the aggressive one. One solution would be to move two of the fish into the sixty gallon and get rid of the aggressive one, then use the ten gallon as a QT or turn it into a tank for nanos. Or, if you are attached to this aggressive fish get him a bigger tank and let him live there alone, or give him a large snail buddy. Point is: that ten gallon's current situation will only continue to get worse the longer you put off doing something with it.

 

[Laser]

When Andrew was saying NitrAtes should be 0 he meant NitrItes. It is correct there will always be some trace of Nitrate in a cycled aquarium unless you do a 100 percent change or you have a lot of plants, because they feed on nitrAtes.

I keep my empty emergency tanks cycled by adding 4 ppm of an ammonia hydroxide solution every couple of days. Using this amount of ammonia is thought to create a strong colony of bacteria that consume ammonia and nitrItes.

The (almost) Complete Guide and FAQ to Fishless Cycling - Aquarium Advice

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Wow, this is a convoluted thread. Let's sum up...

Why convoluted?

First, the ten gallon with three Goldfish.
JLK is right, this tank will never be able to accommodate three Goldfish. You will likely always have a toxin issue as Goldfish just get too large and produce too much waste. Even if it ever get to the point where the bio-filter can handle all of the ammonia and resulting nitrite you will always have a nitrate and water quality issue and the end result for the fish is not good.

But we're not at that stage yet where the fish are "large" in the 10 gallon -- there are two, slightly-bigger-than-feeder-size goldies and the Red Cap Oranda in there...

The 10 was not set up as a "recreational," hobbyist secondary tank -- it was initially set up as an emergency holding area for the aggressive Red Cap after he attacked the other two adult fantails in the 60 gallon and we needed to get him separated from them. We purchased the two other goldies as tankmates for him and to monitor his behavior around different fish after he killed off the other two by opening wounds on their bodies and letting a bacterial strain in. I cannot deny the fact that the water readings are coming back off-the-wall in the 10 gallon now, but I am uncertain if this is simply just from the stocking overload or the fact that this tank may be right in the midst of a cycle process -- or both, as JLK and I had theorized.

As for the 60 gallon... It is starting to show ammonia because the fish is producing it.

You mean through her waste and such? If so, I had suspected this because she is doing a lot of that from what we can see...

Try to keep it low, 0.25ppm or below is a good target. Maintain a weekly water change schedule and let your daily tests determine the frequency and size of any extra water changes you may need to do. If you test at 1.0ppm ammonia then you need to do a 75% PWC to bring it back down to 0.25ppm.

Wait -- so for the weekly changes, for now, what percentage should I be taking out? 50% or less?

Someone on another site advised me to leave water changes alone on the 60 gallon until it reaches 1.0ppm -- don't do them at all until that number appears...do you concur?

Once you start to show nitrite you will want to follow the same procedure. When the ammonia and nitrite stay at zero your bio-filter has matured enough to handle the current waste load. When you add more fish your bio-filter will have to catch up so the daily testing will begin again. Your weekly water change and maintenance schedule will be how the end resulting nitrate is exported from the tank.

So the nitrate and nitrite WILL begin to climb at some point? I have had ZERO readings for these parameters since starting the tank again. How long does it take for nitrite to begin showing up?

Now, about those Goldfish. JLK is right again (like anybody thought she wasn't ). The cramped conditions in your ten gallon is not making the aggression issues any better. It is actually probably only going to get worse as the other fish have nowhere to hide from the aggressive one.

You have to understand that this Oranda was aggressive BEFORE he went into the 10 -- HE is the specific reason we purchased the 10 gallon starter kit to begin with, in order to isolate him from the two he was attacking and ultimately killed. In the 10, he's actually LESS aggressive towards these two small tankmates as compared to what he was doing to the two large fantails in the larger tank, if you can believe that. He occasionally nudges the back of the small orange/black-tailed goldie when they're hunting for the remains of food and such, but it's not constant and all day long as it was when he was in the 60 gallon; there are NO signs of body damage to the smaller fish with him and they do not appear to be stressed out at all being in there with him.

So that's a head-scratcher right there -- how could he have been MORE aggressive in the 60 gallon towards BIGGER fish than him as compared to being in the 10 gallon with SMALLER fish now? We just can't figure it out, and this is why it makes me wonder if we should ever re-introduce him to the larger tank...

One solution would be to move two of the fish into the sixty gallon and get rid of the aggressive one, then use the ten gallon as a QT or turn it into a tank for nanos.

"Get rid of him"? If you're suggesting what I think you're suggesting, we're not doing that -- he is actually beginning to grow and exhibit aggressive wen development as well as fantail detail.

Or, if you are attached to this aggressive fish get him a bigger tank and let him live there alone, or give him a large snail buddy. Point is: that ten gallon's current situation will only continue to get worse the longer you put off doing something with it.

We considered getting him a bigger tank but we can't afford it and don't think he would do well alone, completely...so it comes down to either moving the two in there with him now to the 60, or at least one, and letting him live alone in the 10 or...

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Here's something else to consider:

If I eventually empty out the 10 gallon by putting all fish in the 60, can I transfer the 10's Aqueon power HOB filter to the 60 for even more added filtration on the larger tank? There may just be room to squeeze it next to the larger Aqueon on back...

The smaller Aqueon on the 10 is the "QuietFlow 20" model turning over around 100 or so gallons per hour, so will this just add to the filtration already on the 60 (which is being filtered by an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 and AquaClear 110)?

 

[Laser]

Here's something else to consider:

If I eventually empty out the 10 gallon by putting all fish in the 60, can I transfer the 10's Aqueon power HOB filter to the 60 for even more added filtration on the larger tank? There may just be room to squeeze it next to the larger Aqueon on back...

The smaller Aqueon on the 10 is the "QuietFlow 20" model turning over around 100 or so gallons per hour, so will this just add to the filtration already on the 60 (which is being filtered by an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 and AquaClear 110)?

Yep, you can definitely do that. More filtration is almost always better, especially when goldfish are involved.

 

[blert]

But we're not at that stage yet where the fish are "large" in the 10 gallon -- there are two, slightly-bigger-than-feeder-size goldies and the Red Cap Oranda in there...

Actually yes, whether you choose to believe it or not, you are already there.

I cannot deny the fact that the water readings are coming back off-the-wall in the 10 gallon now, but I am uncertain if this is simply just from the stocking overload or the fact that this tank may be right in the midst of a cycle process -- or both, as JLK and I had theorized.

It's not a theory. Fish produce waste, and Goldfish produce more waste than most compared to their size. The waste produced is the ammonia. A group of bacteria in your bio-filter convert the ammonia to nitrite. Then another group of bacteria convert the nitrite into nitrate. There is even another group of bacteria that convert nitrate into harmless nitrogen, it is not common in freshwater tanks so we rely on plants and PWCs to remove the nitrate. It's called the nitrogen cycle.

You mean through her waste and such? If so, I had suspected this because she is doing a lot of that from what we can see...

Yes.

Wait -- so for the weekly changes, for now, what percentage should I be taking out? 50% or less?

50% is good. I do 50% PWCs in all my tanks every week. You may need to do more with a Goldfish tank though, I do an extra mid-week 50% PWC on my Goldfish tank.

Someone on another site advised me to leave water changes alone on the 60 gallon until it reaches 1.0ppm -- don't do them at all until that number appears...do you concur?

This is not something you can do with a"fish-in" cycle. The toxicity of ammonia actually changes with temperature and pH so 1ppm ammonia may be safe in your tank but most are told to do a PWC at above 0.25ppm to be safe. Nitrite is toxic no matter what, you need to keep that at or below 0.25 also.

So the nitrate and nitrite WILL begin to climb at some point? I have had ZERO readings for these parameters since starting the tank again. How long does it take for nitrite to begin showing up?

It depends on too many factors. Could be a couple of weeks or more before you see nitrite. Could be a couple weeks or more after that before you see any appreciable nitrate also.

So that's a head-scratcher right there -- how could he have been MORE aggressive in the 60 gallon towards BIGGER fish than him as compared to being in the 10 gallon with SMALLER fish now? We just can't figure it out, and this is why it makes me wonder if we should ever re-introduce him to the larger tank...

Maybe he just didn't like them.

"Get rid of him"? If you're suggesting what I think you're suggesting, we're not doing that -- he is actually beginning to grow and exhibit aggressive wen development as well as fantail detail.

We considered getting him a bigger tank but we can't afford it and don't think he would do well alone, completely...so it comes down to either moving the two in there with him now to the 60, or at least one, and letting him live alone in the 10 or...

Well, if you won't rehome him, and you can't get him a bigger tank, then the best thing to do is put them all in the 60 and keep an eye on things.

Here's something else to consider:

If I eventually empty out the 10 gallon by putting all fish in the 60, can I transfer the 10's Aqueon power HOB filter to the 60 for even more added filtration on the larger tank? There may just be room to squeeze it next to the larger Aqueon on back...

The smaller Aqueon on the 10 is the "QuietFlow 20" model turning over around 100 or so gallons per hour, so will this just add to the filtration already on the 60 (which is being filtered by an Aqueon QuietFlow 55 and AquaClear 110)?

Unnecessary but you can do it if you like. You may want to keep it running just in case you need to bring the ten gallon back up right fast.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

UPDATE:

My wife and I just transferred one of the small fancy goldies from the 10 to the 60 gallon -- all seems to be doing well, and he's swimming about the larger tank, scouring for food in the gravel and playing in the bubble walls...

Here's the bizarre thing: Believe it or not, the once docile Black Moor has shown slightly aggressive, territorial behavior towards this small new tankmate -- she has been twitching and swimming a bit erratically since he came in the tank, and has gone over to him a couple of times already and ever-so-slightly nudged him as if to establish territory and superiority...unless I am interpretting the behavior incorrectly.

So now, there may be a behavior incompatability problem in THIS newly setup tank...

At any rate, here's the situation: Two fish reside in the 10 gallon as of now, and two in the 60 -- do any more need to come out of the 10?

 

[Laser]

If they are young they may just be playing or getting used to each other. If you haven't noticed any damage to either fish I would give them a chance to work it out. I have never heard of goldfish being territorial. Maybe they are just excited at the edition of another goldfish. I am no expert on goldfish behavior but just thought I'd share my thoughts on the matter.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Thanks Laser.

Does anyone else have any insight about what is going on here? Should I move the other small goldie from the 10 to the 60?

 

[Steelhawke]

I sent you a PM, did you see it?