May be a dumb question

[Fishguy2727]

I don't think that would be an issue either, it would help it go faster than doing nothing.

 

[BostonRedSox]

Ok I started fishless cycling. I'm working on getting the ammonia to 4ppm right now. I have no seeding material so this should be interesting. Wanted to go ahead and do it to see what happens during the 10 days I will be gone. O yeah I will be leaving in exactly a month today so have a few more days than I thought. Wish me luck!

 

[eco23]

Ok I started fishless cycling. I'm working on getting the ammonia to 4ppm right now. I have no seeding material so this should be interesting. Wanted to go ahead and do it to see what happens during the 10 days I will be gone. O yeah I will be leaving in exactly a month today so have a few more days than I thought. Wish me luck!

Good luck! Trust me, especially without seeding material...you'd be kicking yourself if you hadn't started now. Plus, now you've got an excuse to buy a bag of frozen shrimp and throw most of em on the grill

 

[thras]

Mind sharing that info? Bacteria dying give off an insignificant amount of nutrients. Definitely not enough to keep the colony going. They live because as they die they feed themselves?

Sorry, doesn't add up.

They will not keep growing, that is the point. As the supply of ammonia drops off so does the population of bacteria. Once there is nothing rotting providing ammonia there is no food for bacteria and therefore no bacteria.

Or we can skip all this and do it right with a bottle of ammonia for a buck or two from almost any store.

Well if the ammo source runs out the colony may not grow yes but as the bacteria dies guess what it produces ammo so even if it starts to run low let's say on the 8-10 day the shrimp quit producing ammo the bacteria won't just die they will still be alive when he gets back there may just be a small stall at the most but I dont even see that happening in 10 days because it would take a long time for the shrimp to fully rot to where there was no ammo produced from them and it is a way that people have been doing cycling for years before pure ammo so I would say he would be fine

 

[BostonRedSox]

Well guys put a cap full of ammonia in and got a ammonia reading of 8ppm!!! Soooo did a 30 to 35% water change. Already one rookie mistake!!!

 

[eco23]

Well guys put a cap full of ammonia in and got a ammonia reading of 8ppm!!! Soooo did a 30 to 35% water change. Already one rookie mistake!!!

No biggie. Remember the basic rule is that a 50% pwc reduces levels by half, 25% pwc reduces by a quarter, etc... So you may have to change a bit more to hit the desired 3-4ppm range. Just remember to dechlorinate every time you add new water.

 

[BostonRedSox]

Well it looks like I got it to 4ppm. I ask my wife and she also said it looks like 4ppm. Its hard for me to tell really. If I over shoot and am at possibly 6ppm is that detrimental to my cycle? I did put in prime also. Thanks for the reminder. Thanks for all your help to this point!

 

[eco23]

Well it looks like I got it to 4ppm. I ask my wife and she also said it looks like 4ppm. Its hard for me to tell really. If I over shoot and am at possibly 6ppm is that detrimental to my cycle? I did put in prime also. Thanks for the reminder. Thanks for all your help to this point!

A little over isn't detrimental...but the 3-4ppm range is ideal. Dosing too high initially on the ammonia can lead to a slow start, and if kept in that range can produce excessive no2 levels leading to possible stalls of your cycle. Starting off, a little low is better than a little high, but unless it's extreme, there shouldn't be much of an issue.

 

[barterking85]

No biggie. Remember the basic rule is that a 50% pwc reduces levels by half, 25% pwc reduces by a quarter, etc... So you may have to change a bit more to hit the desired 3-4ppm range. Just remember to dechlorinate every time you add new water.

And remember to measure how much ammonia you put in so when you get your 4 ppm you will know exactly how much ammonia it will take next time you dose

 

[barterking85]

And guys this isn't an argument over which cycling process is this best just give him your thoughts so we can help him out helping is what this forum is for not arguments right....?

 

[Deckape]

And guys this isn't an argument over which cycling process is this best just give him your thoughts so we can help him out helping is what this forum is for not arguments right....?

Well said. Nice folks are on here. Sometimes thats even more important than advice.

 

[Fishguy2727]

Bacteria have effectively no bioload or mass. Bacteria dyiing will produce effectively no ammonia.

So no, the bacteria dying because there is no food will not feed the bacteria and keep it alive.

 

[jetajockey]

Bacteria have effectively no bioload or mass. Bacteria dyiing will produce effectively no ammonia.

So no, the bacteria dying because there is no food will not feed the bacteria and keep it alive.

I have no way to measure the mass of bacteria, so i can't go any further with you on that. I know from personal experience that I've kept gravel and filters wet for more than a week long period without any sustenance whatsoever and still achieved an instant or near instant cycle with no toxin spikes whatsoever. I've done this on multiple occasions, so it's not a one time fluke. Certain bacteria supplements like biospira, tetra safestart, dr tims, and others work on the same principle, and have plenty of data in their track record that concurs. That's more than just saying 'well because i said so'.

That said, 10 days is not going to be a bacteria wipeout like you claim it will be, because the food/shrimp takes longer than 10 days to totally break down, and even if it broke down immediately, the bacteria colony would still be there.


Not trying to start an argument, just trying to point out that not everyone feels the same way about certain things, so the views expressed should not be considered a general consensus due to silence.

 

[Fishguy2727]

I meant ten days without food will wipeout a colony.

That doesn't prove that there were bacteria. You can cycle with fish and never detect ammonia or nitrite, depending on tank size and the fish used. This doesn't mean it was already cycled and there was an adequate colony of nitrifying bacteria living without food.

To anyone reading this: there are many sources of ammonia (live fish, bottled ammonia, rotting food or shrimp, etc.). Some of these sources are better than others, providing a more consistent supply. Bacteria rotting will not provide this.

 

[jetajockey]

That doesn't prove that there were bacteria. You can cycle with fish and never detect ammonia or nitrite, depending on tank size and the fish used. This doesn't mean it was already cycled and there was an adequate colony of nitrifying bacteria living without food.

Like I've already said, I have extensive experience with this, I've documented some of the testing that I've done on a different forum, and it can be found easily enough. Agree with it or don't, it beats pure speculation.

As far as cycling with fish and never detecting ammonia.... reallly? With no bacteria supplementation?
It would take a very large tank with a very small bioload to do that, and that is not what I was implying at all. I've tested a normal fish stock in a normal sized tank with a canister or sponge filter that has gone a week or longer just kept wet. I've also done it with established gravel that has been sitting in a bucket for a similar amount of time.

Although I do appreciate the implication that I don't know what I was doing.

 

[bstnrdsx]

I'm glad I found this discussion. Not so much because of the arguement contained within, but we have pretty much the same name (Boston Red Sox) and are currently in the process of setting up and cycling a 29gal for a 9 month old (mine as of today! wow time flies.) daughter. Something strange to have so much in common I'd say!

 

[Nuadu]

I have just gone through a similar, though shorter, experience as the OP. I have been working through a fishless cycle on my 55g tank for about 2 weeks now, and was at the point where I was going from 4ppm to 0 in 24 hours; the nitrites were off the chart but have not yet seen more than negligable nitrates.

We just went out of town for 4 days and got back last night - before we left, I added enough ammonia to get up to about 8ppm and we departed. When we got back last night, I tested the water again and came back with 0ppm ammonia, and NO nitrites - first time I've seen that yet! And negligable nitrate.

I added my usual ammonia to get back to 4ppm and will test this afternoon to see what happened. I was pleased to see that the nitrites had completely gone - I was planning to do a PWC but maybe I don't need to now, as I wait for the nitrate to spike.

 

[eco23]

I have just gone through a similar, though shorter, experience as the OP. I have been working through a fishless cycle on my 55g tank for about 2 weeks now, and was at the point where I was going from 4ppm to 0 in 24 hours; the nitrites were off the chart but have not yet seen more than negligable nitrates.

We just went out of town for 4 days and got back last night - before we left, I added enough ammonia to get up to about 8ppm and we departed. When we got back last night, I tested the water again and came back with 0ppm ammonia, and NO nitrites - first time I've seen that yet! And negligable nitrate.

I added my usual ammonia to get back to 4ppm and will test this afternoon to see what happened. I was pleased to see that the nitrites had completely gone - I was planning to do a PWC but maybe I don't need to now, as I wait for the nitrate to spike.

Is your tank heavily planted? If so, it's possible the plants are using the nitrAtes and keeping them from hitting high levels. I'd test the bio-filter a couple more times to ensure it can convert 3-4ppm down to 0 with 0 no2 in 24 hours...if so, do a big water change, ensure nitrAtes are under 20 and add fish!

 

[Nuadu]

Is your tank heavily planted? If so, it's possible the plants are using the nitrAtes and keeping them from hitting high levels. I'd test the bio-filter a couple more times to ensure it can convert 3-4ppm down to 0 with 0 no2 in 24 hours...if so, do a big water change, ensure nitrAtes are under 20 and add fish!

eco - no plants at all. Right before we left, I added an Aquaclear 50 to the Aquaclear 70 I already had running as well (I used the sponge and two bags of bio pellets in the 50). Maybe that had something to do with it?

 

[eco23]

eco - no plants at all. Right before we left, I added an Aquaclear 50 to the Aquaclear 70 I already had running as well (I used the sponge and two bags of bio pellets in the 50). Maybe that had something to do with it?

That shouldn't make a difference. NitrAtes only leave a tank due to water changes, plants using them and tiny portions will turn to nitrogen gas (you'll never notice the last one).

How high are the nitrAtes? Are you using an API liquid test kit? If so, are you certain you're testing right! Shaking the #2 solution for 30 seconds and the entire solution for a full minute, waiting 5 minutes and recording your results then? If you're dropping that much ammo and no2 that quickly...I guarantee you've got plenty of nitrAtes.

Sorry, don't mean to get off the OP's topic. Feel free to PM me, or I'm sure the OP won't mind a response since this is something he'll be experiencing in the near future