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Old 05-04-2015, 02:33 PM   #1
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White Spot/bump Above Eye of White Cloud Mountain Minnow

I noticed yesterday what appears to be a white spot or bump above the right eye of one of my male White Cloud Mountain Minnows. I frequent other forums, so I posted there yesterday. Today, I thought it'd be wise to see if I can get other views from other forums, just to be as thorough as possible.

- 50 litre tank, Fluval 2Plus Internal Filter. I have had the tank since August 2009. Replaced impeller first time in December/January. Haven't replaced return flow at all, have only shoved kitchen towel into it to clean out gunk (without removing the return flow component from the housing itself).

- 5 x White Cloud Mountain Minnow (so technically coldwater), 3 female and 2 male

- Feed Fluval Tropical Flakes every other day. De-shelled, de-thawed pea every week to every other week (cut up into tiny pieces and mushed up to an extent, although the mushed-up bit can be quite powdery and I don't like how it disperses in the water and can't all be eaten by the Minnows). I could probably stand to cut down on the flakes when I do feed them.

- Temperature range 21C-23/24C (heater isn't even plugged in)

- Tank lighting is Sun-Glo 46cm 15w T8, on for 7 hours a day from 2pm to 9pm

- Live planted tank, with assortment of Amazon Sword plants, Ellodea, Java Fern and Vallisneria.

- 0ppm ammonia (or slightly above, Nutrafin ammonia liquid test insists on a faint reading, API ammonia liquid test appears to refute it to a degree)

- 0ppm nitrite

- 7.2-7.5ph (difficult to tell from colour chart on Nutrafin pH liquid test)

- 30-50ppm nitrate (it has always been 30ppm+, and this male Minnow has been in the tank for over 2 1/2 years in these high nitrates - used to be over-stocked with completely unsuitable fish that have been rehomed)

- ~255ppm Total Dissolved Solids

- 15-20 litre water changes conducted once a week, most recent one conducted yesterday (~17 litres, ~34%)

I'll keep an eye on things, but I sure hope this isn't white spot and just an injury he has had fighting with the other male Minnow. I don't think it looks fuzzy, and hopefully that isn't to come... I've been advised that this isn't Ich.

3 to 4 seconds into the video seems to give a nice, clear shot.

It was still there throughout today. I don't think it looks fuzzy, and hopefully that isn't to come... I haven't yet observed his poo. The Minnows don't seem to poo all that much these days... The one female Minnow did seem to have white, rather chunky poo the other day (think it was yesterday, Sunday 3rd May), might have been slimy and might not have been. It broke off in a small chunk. No long trail of poo, though.

It might be visible in the video, but it's very faint...both that male Minnow and another female Minnow at least (they are the two surviving Minnows from an earlier shoal) have a whitish/greyish dot in the centre of both of their eyes, not quite sure what it might be.

Also, it could just be the pupil I'm seeing, or maybe not. I don't notice it on the other Minnows, at least I haven't yet, but looked at from different angles, the eyes go from black to a gold/red colour. Probably just the light reflecting off the eye, as the Minnows don't seem to have trouble finding their way around the tank at all (so not blindness, although the male Minnow in the video I posted - the one with the spot above his right eye - did awkwardly brush past some Vallisneria yesterday evening).
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Old 05-05-2015, 12:41 PM   #2
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Too late to edit now... As to the above mentioned poo issue with the female Minnow, either it was Sunday 3rd May or Saturday 2nd May.
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Old 05-06-2015, 05:09 PM   #3
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A little update - it doesn't look like there's been any change to the spot since Sunday.
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Old 05-06-2015, 06:59 PM   #4
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Could you post a clear picture?
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Old 05-07-2015, 02:28 PM   #5
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Four pics for this post...
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Old 05-07-2015, 02:30 PM   #6
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...and another four for this.
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Old 05-07-2015, 03:01 PM   #7
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I'm thinking it could be a tumor. However I notice his fins seem clamped as well
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Old 05-07-2015, 03:15 PM   #8
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It has been of concern, but he always clamps his fins, and he's done it for a very long time. He spreads them out quite a bit when fighting with the other male and courting the females, and he eats both the flake food and the pea that I add.

I've had him for about 2 1/2 years - possibly longer - and though I can't put an exact length of time on the fin clamping, it's been quite a while. Since the end of 2012, I did have significant issues with some of the previous inhabitants who were unsuitable for the tank - Clown Loaches - and I finally managed to rehome the last surviving one at the end of February after determining the main cause wasn't fish TB *touch wood*. During that time, something may well have affected this Minnow; and I did treat with medicines, which could also have affected him. In December 2014, I even treated with Levacide - which contains Levamisole Hydrochloride for treating potential camallanus and other nematodes - but had to abandon the treatment because I noticed all five Minnows reacting negatively to it in the form of taking additional sips from the surface of the water. In any case, I don't think I need to worry about nematodes *touch wood*.

Another video, just to be entirely thorough...
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Old 05-07-2015, 04:35 PM   #9
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On the Practical Fishkeeping forum, it's been suggested the Minnow has mouthrot, and that the 'front part' (his mouth?) isn't good as well. I'm not sure if I notice anything untoward on his actual mouth as far as the two white areas are concerned; these are that small that it could be normal colouration, or a small fungus developing, it's that hard to tell. I'm not sure any photos or video would help because it's going smaller than the white spot/bump above the eye. I do think the white marks on his mouth seem almost symmetrical in positioning, although not entirely, so it could be normal colouration...but I mention this because I don't want to assume and end up wrong.
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Old 05-08-2015, 02:07 PM   #10
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Two more pics...

His mouth does look rather red in real life, but then images online of White Cloud Mountain Minnows show them having red areas around their mouth.
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Old 05-08-2015, 05:26 PM   #11
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One last detail I forgot...I do have a snail in my tank, it's been there for a month upwards, eating the algae off the side of the glass and from plants (he hasn't reproduced). Either a pond or bladder snail. I've noticed one or two other very tiny snails, but only this one remains a constant presence.
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Old 05-08-2015, 09:35 PM   #12
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The mouth area does look rough. Can't believe more help hasn't arrived.
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Old 05-09-2015, 03:47 AM   #13
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Well, I've had lots of trouble on other sites too. It seems very few can be bothered to help. Fortunately, I have the email of a tropical freshwater specialist (okay, Minnows are cold water...), and he is able to give me some advice.

As to the general appearance, including the mouth area, to be entirely honest, given that he's always so thin and his general physical appearance is counter to that of other Minnows - both male and female - I have considered the possibility he does have some genetic defects, or something affected him a while ago (more than a year, certainly). His mouth itself looks pushed in compared to the mouths of other Minnows. He's lively enough, gets into fights and tries to spawn (and as I have a few Minnow fry hiding about, may well have been successful), and eats normally.
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Old 05-09-2015, 02:57 PM   #14
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I did recently start re-using a bucket for some of the dirty tank water. This bucket I used once last year when the one Clown Loach I had died, specifically for the water removed when I deeply vacuumed the gravel in the corner where that Clown Loach died (he had fin rot as a secondary infection). I never sterilised it or anything, I just left it to dry and ever since then the main bucket in which I rinse filter media, etc has just sat in that old bucket. I didn't use that old bucket for almost a year. But, as I remove more than 10 litres at a time, I've decided two buckets was better...I did stupidly dip the gravel vac into that old bucket last week - although that was the same day as I noticed the spot, so that wouldn't be the main cause - and I'm wondering if using that bucket in general has anything to do with my current problem? I've also used the jug I use to add new water to the tank to pour unused excess clean water into the old bucket, and have poured water from the fresh water bucket into the old bucket (so splash-back could have caused contamination...).

Of course, these Minnows and the Clown Loach I rehomed were all in the tank at that time, although I had dosed with eSHa 2000 the same week (if that offered any protection). But, as the main bucket always sits in the old bucket each week, and I touch the outside of the main bucket, if anything was going to be transferred, it would have probably happened well before now. Or not...just thinking out loud of all the possibilites. I do dry out both buckets by wiping them with kitchen towel, and if I've had my hands in the old bucket and have handled the main bucket after that...another route of contamination.

EDIT: I've noticed a white tip on the lower part of the caudal fin, and possibly edged with faint black. I will observe this just in case it's entirely normal colouration I've never noticed before. However, my mind is thinking fin rot...if that's the case, I'm not sure what I can do for the little guy. Do I treat the whole tank and risk potential side-effects from medicine, or opt for euthanasia given that it means he has more than one issue going on (and therefore any treatment may be insufficient to solve the primary infection)?

EDIT 2: It's visible in that video I filmed on 3rd May, so...dunno what to make of it now. Don't think that's fin rot any longer, or I don't think it as much. I'm still not going to entirely discount the possibility, but still... Heh, good job I checked the video.
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Old 05-09-2015, 05:20 PM   #15
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I wouldn't euthanize yet. Your doing great by monitoring him closely. I would up my water changes and keep watching for improvements.
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Old 05-09-2015, 05:43 PM   #16
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It's a 30% change tomorrow, possibly up to 40%, and then I'm not free all week from tomorrow afternoon (unless I get a family member to mess around in the week, but if anything goes wrong...I really don't have the opportunity to fix it). I replace at least 30% each weekend (usually more, it's between 15-20 litres), perhaps next weekend I will split it into two cleans - a one-off 50% clean on Saturday just for water replacement and maximum impact, and then one 2-3 litre change on the Sunday just for the filter (2-3 litres just to have enough water to wash it and the filter media in). It'd definitely be less trouble splitting it if I want to do a large replacement (I spend at least 15 minutes on the filter...then ages on mucking about with the plants and algae on the glass).

As to the tail...I've got video from the 6th April and before, it was there then. Not fin rot in that case...good job I obsessed back then and filmed the Minnows.
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Old 05-09-2015, 07:27 PM   #17
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Excellent! If possible I would try to fit in a 50% change tomorrow but no worries if you can't. In the case of any rot clean water is important.

I'm so sorry this thread hasn't received more attention. The members here are normally very helpful. Idk why this has stayed under the radar.
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Old 05-09-2015, 08:02 PM   #18
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I have looked at this thread several times without good explanation.
White clouds are said to live from 3-5+ years and possibly the fish is growing old?
Does the spot look like lymphocysitis?
The mouth looks like damage from fighting with the other male IMO.
I don't think anything came from your old bucket as thorough drying(a year!) is said to work well against transferring disease.
I'm sorry I can't be more help but I admire you taking good care of your fish!
I had long finned white clouds years ago and they were so beautiful!
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Old 05-10-2015, 03:59 AM   #19
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I have definitely had this Minnow and another female for 2 1/2 years upwards. Since I rehomed the Clown Loach in February, I've turned the heater completely off and the temperature range has been between 21C to 23/24C throughout the day (absolutely nothing more I can do there unless I don't use the tank light, which then means trouble for my plants), but when the heater was on (which was for the 2 1/2 years those two Minnows have been present), it was going up to 26C. I may have to consider the possibility it has advanced their ageing.

The one tropical freshwater specialist I've emailed did say the spot looked cystic, but that the likely parasites needed an intermediate host such as snails (uh-oh...I have one largish pond/bladder snail, and two other very small stowaways of another genus - I plan to eliminate all I can today to be completely safe). If it isn't parasites, maybe it is lymphocystis...in which case, I'm not sure what to do.

As to a 50% change today...I'd want to separate it from when I do the filter to give myself the extra time. It already takes me upwards of an hour to an hour and a quarter to do a clean as I obsessively clean any gunk out of the filter (there can't even be a smidgen! I have to restrain myself sometimes), and I really don't have the luxury of time today. I also temperature match the water as best as possible, sometimes slightly warmer (usually a mix of slightly warmer and slightly cooler), and add it in over 10-15 minutes...I do rush a little (although I haven't observed temperature shock yet).
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:11 AM   #20
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I hadn't even thought of heat accelerating life span.
Very possible.
On the parasite and secondary host,IMO it is not a problem that exist because of the snails or "secondary host".

I also can't say getting rid of the snails won't help,it may?
There are an equal amount of parasites that don't need a secondary host that infect our fish like flukes,ich,oodinium.. they need only one host ,the fish.
Viruses | The Skeptical Aquarist
Lympho is a virus so no cure or treatment.
Often it is not quickly fatal,or highly contagious.
I will add a small note I found hidden in a columnaris link on the issue of desease and older fish;
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• A common portal for a Columnaris infection is simply an older and weaker fish. Old age allows many opportunistic infections to get a foothold in at least the fish in question.

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I am not suggesting columnaris(may be a first?),but do believe the statement can/does apply to many other issues also.
Good luck and hope this all helps.
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