Who among us has a perfect tank? (vent)

[Wy Renegade]

Wow - my vent thread turned into a case in point. Ironic.

I could tell you that I was surprized, but then I would be lying .

Is it sadder that some goldfish end up in bowls, or that an entire community based around biology is relatively ignorant of scientific standards

Although I suppose we all have our own priorities.

Personally, I always have to chuckle when I see a call for data or imperical evidence show up in these threads. While I agree that aquarium forums like this are based around "biology", in truth they have very little to do with real science. Or perhaps it would be more fair to say that real science has very little to do with aquarium keeping. The simple truth of the matter is that about 99% of what is bandied about on the internet forums as "fact" is nothing more than opinions based on individuals or perhaps a group of individuals observations or personal experiences. If you actually go looking, there is very little emperical evidence or data to support anything that occurs within the aquarium industry. Why is that do we suppose? I think that answer to that is fairly obvious; aquariums are at the base of things, an artificial environment created by humans that in truth follow very few of the rules of nature. Thus in order to provide any sort of valide emperical evidence, we would have to study not a number of tanks of the same sort/size, but rather we would have to study every single tank. Why? Because quite simply every single tank is a unique situation to which the existing rules of nature do not apply.

In nature, temperatures are not constant, food is not daily available at the same time or space, in the same form, nor is it always nutritionally ideal. Further, it is not always easy to get ahold of. In nature predatures exist, large volumes of water are almost always involved, and nature takes care of water changes, dissolved oxygen, etc.

In some cases we can take science that exists and apply it fairly accurately to a particular fish or situation, but that is certainly not always the case.

 

[mfdrookie516]

No disrespect, Jeta, but I have to agree with Hukit that any fish, whether its a goldfish or cichlid or whatever species, that is 8 or 10 or 12+inches realisitcally does not belong in a 20g tank.

Just curious...

I agree with Blert- you can stock one fancy goldfish in the 20g. ... A 20g needs 200gph (gallons per hour) filtration for a single fancy goldfish with some extra aeration

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...the-best-easiest-goldfish-to-have-218056.html

A 20g is only suitable for a single fancy.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/goldfish-chasing-208084.html


Why are you telling people it's ok to stock a fancy goldfish in a 20g, without any disclaimer that it may outgrow it, if you're now saying that an adult fancy goldfish does not belong in a 20g?

 

[MrPillow]

What you just described to me seems not like a departure from the relevance of science, but an ideal situation to put it to use. After all, the experimental process depends on controlled isolation of a single variable, a situation which as you pointed out is largely nonexistent in nature. It is not a lack of potential which has kept the aquarium hobby removed from science, but as I see it a lack of interest by the majority of participants.

 

[Wy Renegade]

What you just described to me seems not like a departure from the relevance of science, but an ideal situation to put it to use. After all, the experimental process depends on controlled isolation of a single variable, a situation which as you pointed out is largely nonexistent in nature. It is not a lack of potential which has kept the aquarium hobby removed from science, but as I see it a lack of interest by the majority of participants.

While I agree that that it may appear to be the ideal situation to use it, in truth it is far from it. There are far too many variables which exist in any given situation (i.e. tank) for the results from a single experiment to have any degree of validity in any except the exact same situation.

In regards to why there is a lack of science within the aquarium hobby, I would disagree that it is due to a lack of interest by the majority of participants. In truth I think that a large number of the participants would like to be armchair scientists and be able to have imperical evidence to back up what they think. As an example, look at how many individuals love to use scientific names to refer to their fish and/or tank inhabitants. Very few realize the very high degree of inaccuracy with which specimens are I.D.ed prior to being shipped into this country. The lack of science within the aquarium hobby in my opinion is due to a lack of interest by scientists as they realize the futility of attempting to generalize their results, there are far too many variables involved.

As you yourself pointed out, validity in science requires that the exact same conditions exist, and we change only one variable at a time. In the aquarium industry, that just doesn't occur. My 20 gallon tank isn't anything like your 20 gallon tank, nor is it like Jeta's tank. Therefore, scientific evidence that says X specimen can thrive under these conditions may or may not apply given the set-up, filtration, lighting, substrate, dosing regime, etc. of the particular 20 gallon tank.

 

[MacDracor]

You think this is bad, I have gamer buddies with stories to tell. Lol
I think the problem here is twofold. First, Internet anonymity, which has already been discussed ad infinitum. Second, and perhaps not really a bad thing in and of itself, we all feel passionately about our fish.
Combine the two, anonymity and passion, and things can get out of hand quickly. I know I've been guilty of it. I got into a fairly stupid argument with someone about snail operculum, and came off as very snotty. Once this was pointed out to me, I apologized first in the thread, then in a PM. I'd like to believe the OP and I are friends now.
I guess what I'm trying to say here is that we all go overboard sometimes but if we admit our mistakes, apologize, and then continue to try to be helpful, we can end up with new friends.

 

[jlk]

Just curious...




Why are you telling people it's ok to stock a fancy goldfish in a 20g, without any disclaimer that it may outgrow it, if you're now saying that an adult fancy goldfish does not belong in a 20g?

Ok, on the thread we are presently posting commentary upon, I stated that ANY species of fish that is 12in long should not be in a 20g. I ALSO stated that this is MY opinion and people will make their own decisions regardless. If you would like for me to to go back and edit every single post on I have ever written on this forum, I am afraid you are out of luck.

I enjoy helping people on this forum and I do try to stick to topics that I am familiar with- cycling and goldfish. Do I post scientific data to back up every opinion I have? No, and neither do the majority of the people on this forum. As its already been stated, the majority of the information on this forum is simply opinion and not scientific data. Nor do I hound people about their tank situations- I make suggestions. I certainly did not attack or 'pummel' the OP of this thread either and I am not sure how anyone could have construed my response in another manner. If anyone has additional input to offer on her situation beyond what I suggested, please feel free to do so.

That said, I generally care about fish and love goldies and would hope that everyone would desire whats best for their fish as well. I try to be as tactful as possible in my responses- if someone does not like them, they can choose to ignore them rather than complain about them. I do not help on this forum for my benefit or well-being, I do so because I am genuinely trying to help and I do so of my own free time and free will. I do not appreciate being singled out and attacked when it seems like I am only one of the few people that even offers any goldie advice on this forum.

 

[CoryFan]

Interesting. OP pointed out that there is more to consider than tank size, such as filtration. JLK pointed out that she gives out specific, key information. Both situations are fair. In an ideal situation, we would all know what the "whole picture" of what the other party knows, and needs. But these are just conversations, between caring aquarists. And at times, a fish owner is in a terrified rush to help their pet - sharing only what is foremost in their mind...and an advisor is helping guide two people through an illness situation, another through a cycle, and answering general questions too. Both lead to unintentional gaps in information.
So assume the best intentions are behind every post, ask for other pertinent information, and try to remember the "whole picture."

 

[Wy Renegade]

Quite honestly, I don't believe it was your response in the OP's thread that has generated this discussion at all. I believe that to be an incorrect assumption on the part of another poster, but since I can't read the OP's mind we will have to see.

I find it far more likely that the OP was referring to this thread;
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/crazy-guppy-ugh-236312.html

rather than the one that was linked earlier.

 

[Samzter]

Ok, on the thread we are presently posting commentary upon, I stated that ANY species of fish that is 12in long should not be in a 20g. I ALSO stated that this is MY opinion and people will make their own decisions regardless. If you would like for me to to go back and edit every single post on I have ever written on this forum, I am afraid you are out of luck.

I enjoy helping people on this forum and I do try to stick to topics that I am familiar with- cycling and goldfish. Do I post scientific data to back up every opinion I have? No, and neither do the majority of the people on this forum. As its already been stated, the majority of the information on this forum is simply opinion and not scientific data. Nor do I hound people about their tank situations- I make suggestions. I certainly did not attack or 'pummel' the OP of this thread either and I am not sure how anyone could have construed my response in another manner. If anyone has additional input to offer on her situation beyond what I suggested, please feel free to do so.

That said, I generally care about fish and love goldies and would hope that everyone would desire whats best for their fish as well. I try to be as tactful as possible in my responses- if someone does not like them, they can choose to ignore them rather than complain about them. I do not help on this forum for my benefit or well-being, I do so because I am genuinely trying to help and I do so of my own free time and free will. I do not appreciate being singled out and attacked when it seems like I am only one of the few people that even offers any goldie advice on this forum.

I think you're doing a brilliant job, you are one of the people on this forum who knows what they're on about when it comes to goldies. Your answers are well respected by most people on this site and you always have the fishes welfare in mind.

 

[jlk]

Quite honestly, I don't believe it was your response in the OP's thread that has generated this discussion at all. I believe that to be an incorrect assumption on the part of another poster, but since I can't read the OP's mind we will have to see.

I find it far more likely that the OP was referring to this thread;
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/crazy-guppy-ugh-236312.html

rather than the one that was linked earlier.

The OP specifically used the goldfish response as her basis for her original 'vent' post.

 

[Shane87]

I think people take it to seriously, most people on here are friendly and offer genuine advice from research or experience but there will always be people you would rather not deal with on the Internet, that's just the way it is and also you are asking for ADVICE and not RULES! Even the most experienced aquarist may have different experiences and outcomes as to what does and doesn't work. All fish are different the same way people are so if you really care about fish just research for your self and ask for others experiences and/or advice and then go with what you feel but be responsible and have a plan if things don't work out. that is how I use the site but its just my opinion.

 

[MacDracor]

While it is important to ask for more information when it is needed, there are occasions in which a single factor can override all others. Lets blow this up with an extreme example. Lets say someone was asking what to feed his new octopus in a 10 gallon nano reef.
We *could* simply tell him what the octopus eats, but we are far more likely to tell him that octopus should never ever be in that tank, and list reasons why.
Obviously this is blown to extremes to demonstrate a point.
In that situation, the multitude of responses would very likely feel like a personal attack to the poster. Right or wrong, that's how it would be perceived.
So, to use the original example in this thread, it does not matter what temperature, filtration, and feeding are used if the tank itself is of an inadequate size. We SHOULD endeavor to convey this in a polite and gentle manner, but it won't always feel that way no matter what the intentions.

 

[CoryFan]

The OP specifically used the goldfish response as her basis for her original 'vent' post.

Yeah, but in that guppy thread a whole slew of ppl got on the goldfish in the tank... Repeating each other and not saying much about the guppy at all...before the op even responded to the first one. :I love jlk:

 

[twoodrough]

I think people take it to seriously, most people on here are friendly and offer genuine advice from research or experience but there will always be people you would rather not deal with on the Internet, that's just the way it is and also you are asking for ADVICE and not RULES! Even the most experienced aquarist may have different experiences and outcomes as to what does and doesn't work. All fish are different the same way people are so if you really care about fish just research for your self and ask for others experiences and/or advice and then go with what you feel but be responsible and have a plan if things don't work out. that is how I use the site but its just my opinion.

I usually research, then come here for additional info and people's experiences. My frustration comes when people spend more time analysing my tank instead of answering my question. As happened on the guppy post being referred to. I just wanted to know if my guppy could kill my goldy and if I should get him out. This wasn't the first time this had happened so I finally decided to say something.

This site is pretty conservative, which is in the best interest of the fish. I researched the net and learned a fantail is okay in a 20 for a while. I go to my local LFS and they at one point told me a fantail would by okay in a 15. Based on my research and info here I knew that was not something I wanted to do because I knew I was pushing it even doing the 20. Thus the other accomodations that I am making with my tank.

I know most stuff on here is opinion based, but it comes from people that have way more experience than me, so I listen. But I also do my own research to go with it. And talk to my LFS for whatever they might add (even their most conservative employee is way more liberal than anyone here, I think).

This topic has gotten way more attention than I was expecting. I have another thread going now where my questions are being patiently answered and I am moving forward.

 

[abrinn23]

Everyone has obviously strayed away from the original discussion. From what I've read I've determined that most of the people on this forum speak from opinion/personal experience. Others like to use scientific data to help answer questions. The main point is this: everyone on here does their best to help the people who have questions. Yes, there are some instances where people act in a manner which is not necessary but overall it does not happen frequently.

People have different opinions, that part is obvious. Does anyone really expect for everybody to agree with one another? That's crazy. If someone offers advice to a person asking a question and someone does not agree with it it is perfectly fine to express your own opinion but do it in a way that isn't rude or pull a "holier-than-thou" act. Who knows you might actually teach someone besides the OP.

On the flip side, people who get offended by a post because they think they are being attacked, don't feel that way it probably isn't the case. Posters offering insight should not have to put a smiley face or anything of the sort after every sentence just so it comes off as "friendly".

Well this is just my two cents.

 

[ktomminello]

Lol, wow, I think there's a troll around here somewhere- oh, and I agree tattooed and dye injected fish are evil and wrong!

Here troll! Come out come out wherever you are! Pm if you're a troll so I can subscribe, this is way more fun than playing kaw while waiting for my kids to get out of school.

 

[jetajockey]

Ok, on the thread we are presently posting commentary upon, I stated that ANY species of fish that is 12in long should not be in a 20g. I ALSO stated that this is MY opinion and people will make their own decisions regardless. If you would like for me to to go back and edit every single post on I have ever written on this forum, I am afraid you are out of luck.

I enjoy helping people on this forum and I do try to stick to topics that I am familiar with- cycling and goldfish. Do I post scientific data to back up every opinion I have? No, and neither do the majority of the people on this forum. As its already been stated, the majority of the information on this forum is simply opinion and not scientific data. Nor do I hound people about their tank situations- I make suggestions. I certainly did not attack or 'pummel' the OP of this thread either and I am not sure how anyone could have construed my response in another manner. If anyone has additional input to offer on her situation beyond what I suggested, please feel free to do so.

That said, I generally care about fish and love goldies and would hope that everyone would desire whats best for their fish as well. I try to be as tactful as possible in my responses- if someone does not like them, they can choose to ignore them rather than complain about them. I do not help on this forum for my benefit or well-being, I do so because I am genuinely trying to help and I do so of my own free time and free will. I do not appreciate being singled out and attacked when it seems like I am only one of the few people that even offers any goldie advice on this forum.

You give great advice and when I see you in a thread I sometimes don't even get all the way through it because I know you've covered all of the bases. Personally I consider you a resident expert and am glad you contribute here.

I think the point mfd was making is that most of us have been recommending a 20g-ish minimum for fancy goldfish on the regular here, but now that it's a point of contention I'm getting dogpiled by defending it. Correct me if I'm wrong, Jon, I could be talking out of school.

I wasn't necessarily expecting anyone to bust out a bunch of science papers to try to determine that fancy goldfish would be harmed in a 20g tank, but I just wanted a little more than a 'just because' or 'well my friends friend had a fish that', especially considering that the bandwagon in this thread is going against the status quo of what is usually recommended on the forum to begin with.
I'm not a goldfish expert by any means and tend to defer to those who have more of a passion or time in study with this species, just thought it was pertinent to make example of one of the disconnects that I think was brought up in this rant.

 

[jetajockey]

Everyone has obviously strayed away from the original discussion. From what I've read I've determined that most of the people on this forum speak from opinion/personal experience. Others like to use scientific data to help answer questions. The main point is this: everyone on here does their best to help the people who have questions. Yes, there are some instances where people act in a manner which is not necessary but overall it does not happen frequently.

People have different opinions, that part is obvious. Does anyone really expect for everybody to agree with one another? That's crazy. If someone offers advice to a person asking a question and someone does not agree with it it is perfectly fine to express your own opinion but do it in a way that isn't rude or pull a "holier-than-thou" act. Who knows you might actually teach someone besides the OP.

On the flip side, people who get offended by a post because they think they are being attacked, don't feel that way it probably isn't the case. Posters offering insight should not have to put a smiley face or anything of the sort after every sentence just so it comes off as "friendly".

Well this is just my two cents.

I agree, advice givers should always consider tact before hitting the submit button, and advice takers should not assume people are attacking them just because they are informing them of how inappropriate their stock or setup is.

Sugar coating is unnecessary.

 

[ktomminello]

All I know about goldfish is I raised them from the time they were fry until the time they outgrew a 29g and were ready for placement in my moms ponds, which are very large. I also have had an opportunity to see an aquaponic koi farm built from a normal koi pond, but I'm the type that would rather tell you a story of my own personal experiences or keep my mouth shut. Shooting from the hip never helps anyone.

 

[Kat30]

Ok, on the thread we are presently posting commentary upon, I stated that ANY species of fish that is 12in long should not be in a 20g. I ALSO stated that this is MY opinion and people will make their own decisions regardless. If you would like for me to to go back and edit every single post on I have ever written on this forum, I am afraid you are out of luck.

I enjoy helping people on this forum and I do try to stick to topics that I am familiar with- cycling and goldfish. Do I post scientific data to back up every opinion I have? No, and neither do the majority of the people on this forum. As its already been stated, the majority of the information on this forum is simply opinion and not scientific data. Nor do I hound people about their tank situations- I make suggestions. I certainly did not attack or 'pummel' the OP of this thread either and I am not sure how anyone could have construed my response in another manner. If anyone has additional input to offer on her situation beyond what I suggested, please feel free to do so.

That said, I generally care about fish and love goldies and would hope that everyone would desire whats best for their fish as well. I try to be as tactful as possible in my responses- if someone does not like them, they can choose to ignore them rather than complain about them. I do not help on this forum for my benefit or well-being, I do so because I am genuinely trying to help and I do so of my own free time and free will. I do not appreciate being singled out and attacked when it seems like I am only one of the few people that even offers any goldie advice on this forum.

JLK, I don't need you to cite case studies when you are advising me on my lot! I have a living proof (happily swimming in her tank!) that your methods work. You have some devoted fans here in London, that's for sure!