Wigglers 2: Birth of a hatchery & everything Angels

[Andy Sager]

The lunatic's spawn hasn't hatched yet but there are a number of white eggs already but they are scattered around the pile. That means that it wasn't that he missed them or an entire line of eggs. Something else caused those eggs to die or not be fertilized. So we will see. But their other spawn is huge and swimming and eating. You can see white and dark fry so I have hopes for 1/2 blacks or the ability to eventually breed those light ones together which should produce 1/2 blacks. Fingers crossed.

 

[Andy Sager]

And today that spawn hatched. There were about 40-50 white eggs on the slate but that was out of about 300-400 eggs so I am not complaining. I just need them to grow up so i can see what they look like. So now there is about a 2 month wait for that

 

[Andy Sager]

I realize I have been a little lax in preparing more tanks for the fry to grow out in ( and the fish are paying a little for it. ) All those piles of tanks outside just taunt me as I walk past them to get to the hatchery. lol Well, for the past few days, I have been seriously working on that rack. I've removed the temporary upper level and now have block and wood along an entire side which will give me 6 more 30 gal breeder tanks, 3 -25 gal breeder tanks and 5 -20 gal long tanks as well as the 4 -75 gal tubs. Once these are functional, I can then add 3 more 25s and 5 more 20 longs to the other side of the rack and then the grow out part of the hatchery will be done. Pics coming soon. Then, all that's left is the sale's rack.

As for fry, the new F1 Zebra Veil pair's first spawn have started free swimming today and eating live brine shrimp. The last spawn from the crazies ( Zebra/ 1/2 Black) is now free swimming and it too is huge. I can't wait to see what they produce. A second pair from the f1 barred marbles is forming. This will be a silver straight with a barred marble veil. They are siblings from the silver veil in my avatar and the gold marble that is now part of pair #2 which is producing marbles and golds. So this should be an interesting spawn as to what is going to come from it. Of course I would have rather had any Barred Marble pair up with a veiled barred marble sibling and the same with the silver/silver veil but I am assuming that since they are all siblings, I should get the same results just maybe not in the quantities I want. If things are too lopsided in the wrong direction, I may just make my own pairs out of them now that I know for sure males & females.
That's the update for now.

 

[Mr Fisher]

Love all the progress and looking forward to pics. I've been lax on following this thread and my fish duties lately.

 

[Andy Sager]

Love all the progress and looking forward to pics. I've been lax on following this thread and my fish duties lately.

Ok, this might get you a little " Unlaxed" ROFL

After about 4 months and 3 mates, I finally know the gender of the supposed female 1/2 black who was with the lunatic male. Since it got beat up by both known males and females and looked like it had the beginnings of a male tube dangling for a few weeks now, I had put it in with the single Large 1/2 black fish until I could put them all in a bigger tank for pairing off. The Larger fish was picking on this smaller one but not too bad so I left them alone and put in a couple of slates and shale for them to hide from each other. Well yesterday, the fish "dropped tube" partially and it definitely was a female. Tonight, this was happening just about 30 minutes before lights out.

 

[Andy Sager]

Ok, this might get you a little " Unlaxed" ROFL

After about 4 months and 3 mates, I finally know the gender of the supposed female 1/2 black who was with the lunatic male. Since it got beat up by both known males and females and looked like it had the beginnings of a male tube dangling for a few weeks now, I had put it in with the single Large 1/2 black fish until I could put them all in a bigger tank for pairing off. The Larger fish was picking on this smaller one but not too bad so I left them alone and put in a couple of slates and shale for them to hide from each other. Well yesterday, the fish "dropped tube" partially and it definitely was a female. Tonight, this was happening just about 30 minutes before lights out.

Had to take these from a distance so they are a little fizzy but you can clearly see the brown spot in the middle of the slate. Needless to say, they are a male and female and I went back tonight and took the spawn while they were sleeping. Now the fertility test begins.

 

[Mr Fisher]

Ok, this might get you a little " Unlaxed" ROFL

After about 4 months and 3 mates, I finally know the gender of the supposed female 1/2 black who was with the lunatic male. Since it got beat up by both known males and females and looked like it had the beginnings of a male tube dangling for a few weeks now, I had put it in with the single Large 1/2 black fish until I could put them all in a bigger tank for pairing off. The Larger fish was picking on this smaller one but not too bad so I left them alone and put in a couple of slates and shale for them to hide from each other. Well yesterday, the fish "dropped tube" partially and it definitely was a female. Tonight, this was happening just about 30 minutes before lights out.

Very nice!

I've been kinda bummed last couple of weeks. Lost my gold and zebra lace I had talked to you about. It was my mistake. Did a water change and winged it on the temp since my thermometer was broke. Long story short They got stressed and parasites hit them. I've now got some juvies in that tank to get a pair. My problem is do I want a gold pair, SSB pair or order something from someone for a different type. I'd love some Albino Dantums or platinum pearlscales or maybe some PB's. Decisions......


Another issue is that my Silver X Koi pair are now not doing very good parent raising. I had to leave them with some new free swimmers when we left town for the wife's birthday and well the two spawns since have both been eaten once free swimming. I need to pull slates and the UV, throw in a clean slate and I guess I'll be raising any fry from here on out.

I did end up with about 80 fish from their first spawn back in December. Sold 40 to LFS the other day, donated some to a local veterans home and still have a few to sell to LFS next week. I've also got the last spawn of my gold pair to go in the grow out next week. I'd say 80-100 that are pea size.

 

[livefishguy124]

i think you should track down what ever you don't have to get some new "traits" in your line, this thread has been very informative and entertaining, and lets not forget instructional, we who have read the whole thing have learned things we can not learn in a book, online or from most like 99.679345% of aquarium hobbyists (i mean real hobbyists that care for the hobby and for the heath of their fish and the well being of the hobby)

 

[Mr Fisher]

i think you should track down what ever you don't have to get some new "traits" in your line, this thread has been very informative and entertaining, and lets not forget instructional, we who have read the whole thing have learned things we can not learn in a book, online or from most like 99.679345% of aquarium hobbyists (i mean real hobbyists that care for the hobby and for the heath of their fish and the well being of the hobby)

The information Andy has shared is very valuable to the hobby. His knowledge brought me from an Angelfish newbie up to a seriously succesful hobby breeder.

 

[livefishguy124]

i know i have learnd a lot to (even though my pair are still having trouble(the male hates the female)) this is post 300!!!

 

[PoppaRyno]

Im about to embark on my first real shot at successfully breeding some angels. I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your journey. It is going to help me in a huge way.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Andy Sager]

Very nice!

I've been kinda bummed last couple of weeks. Lost my gold and zebra lace I had talked to you about. It was my mistake. Did a water change and winged it on the temp since my thermometer was broke. Long story short They got stressed and parasites hit them. I've now got some juvies in that tank to get a pair. My problem is do I want a gold pair, SSB pair or order something from someone for a different type. I'd love some Albino Dantums or platinum pearlscales or maybe some PB's. Decisions......


Another issue is that my Silver X Koi pair are now not doing very good parent raising. I had to leave them with some new free swimmers when we left town for the wife's birthday and well the two spawns since have both been eaten once free swimming. I need to pull slates and the UV, throw in a clean slate and I guess I'll be raising any fry from here on out.

I did end up with about 80 fish from their first spawn back in December. Sold 40 to LFS the other day, donated some to a local veterans home and still have a few to sell to LFS next week. I've also got the last spawn of my gold pair to go in the grow out next week. I'd say 80-100 that are pea size.

Sadly, this is the part of fish keeping that just SUCKS!!!! They don;t allow you to get lazy or lax without repercussions. And sometimes they just die for no reason ( that is discernable.)It's why I don't name my fish. It's much less painful to lose " My Silver male" than it is to lose " Joe, my favorite Silver male." I know it sounds cold but when you deal with as many fish as I have and have had, you have to make some type of barrier to keep your sanity. Trust me, I take care of my fish exactly the same as I would my own child so don't think I am that distant.

As for what to get next?, you may want to keep this in mind: I've been told that some of the newer varieties of Angels are producing smaller offspring and may be too small to use newly hatched brine shrimp as a first food. You may need to get into some even smaller foods for the first week or so. So just be prepared if you lose your first spawns because they don;t eat.

Parent raising: While this is a typical way hobbyists like to raise their fish, in order to make any real money at breeding, you must raise the eggs and fry and not let the parents do it. What typically happens is the first few times( when you do get Angels that will parent raise) the parents are good and let as many fry as they have survive. But, it seems like once they know what is involved with raising SOOOOOO many fry, they tend to pick off the weaker ones before they get a chance to develop or catch up to their siblings. I have this exact thing going on right now with my Black and Silver pair. I made a boo boo and didn't have a tank or bottle prepared for their last spawn so I let them parent raise. ( They still are raising the fry ATM) In their previous spawns, they have been so big that I had to split them into 2 tanks just so they would grow. This spawn that they are raising now, also had a huge amount of free swimmers once they started free swimming but now there are only about 50-60 fry still swimming ( at 3 weeks old). I do know that in the spawns I hatched out, there were a number of underdeveloped and unable to swim fry and most of those died off in the first few days. But even with those, I still needed to split the spawns. I won;t have to with this one they are raising. Apparently, the parents decided who was to live and who to eat. Judging from the other spawns, they ate too many of them. Oh well, you live and learn......

(BTW: I've yet to meet a successful commercial breeder who parent raises their fish. )

Hope this helps

 

[Andy Sager]

I'd like to take a sec and thank you all for the recent comments regarding this thread and me. I'm glad that you all are finding the information helpful and entertaining as well as useful.

My original goal was to take a person or two under my wing to help pass along the tropical fish knowledge I spent a lifetime collecting so that it wouldn't be lost when I eventually go to that big aquarium in the sky. It came from years of hands on experience and actually doing it all, long before the internet became the resource of choice for today's hobbyist. However, through the internet, I've been able to share with more than just 1 or 2 people and that makes my heart glad to help so many enjoy this hobby. Fish keeping should be not only educational but fun as well. In my eyes, if you can't see the humor in some of the things these fish do, you need to take a step back and look again. I've had my dogs, birds and even my monkeys ( yes, I also raised monkeys ) all sit on my bed and just watch my fish tanks. They HAD to be entertaining or why else would these animals have paid so much attention to the fish?

But on the serious side, I also see a lot of bad information on the internet and the results of that bad information are now found in many of the stores and shops we get our fish from. My hope is that through this thread ( and the original Wigglers at last!!!! thread), the days of the careless fish breeder will be numbered and quality fish can get back into the stores. The stores can only sell what they have available to buy. If all that's available is poor quality fish, then that is all that they can sell. That needs to change IMO. That means culling and not letting every fish created live. It means any fish you sell or trade to a store should meet a standard for that specie. It means sometimes being a little "heartless" when it comes to what fish do we keep. It's just that simple.

Hopefully, those of you who have followed these threads will "be part of the solution, not the problem." This is a great hobby that can lead to many positive changes in the world and lifetime careers for those who are interested. I'm more than happy to help you on those paths.

Now, I have to stop writing and go change some water.

 

[Mr Fisher]

Thanks Andy! Artificial raising it shall be. MY KoiXsilver pair just spawned and this will be the last parent raised batch as I'm at capacity tank wise atm.

I appreciate your insight on the new hybrids. That's something I want to steer clear of, the small fry (no pun intended) I'm trying to bring to the hobbiest a healthy, vigorous and hardy fish. I'm going on three months supplying a LFS and they have had no issues at all with the selling or the health of my fish, which makes me very proud. (I had a heck of a good teacher, I tell them"

You're so right about bad info. It is RAMPANT. I've also seen people selling ,sadly, with success fish that should of been culled. I hope I'm doing you proud my friend!

The gang says Hi!

 

[fish wrangler]

Andy when you would place the eggs in a container and keep them with the parents what kind of jar did you use? Sent from my SCH-I545 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Andy Sager]

Yeah, lacka tankspace is a killer when it comes to breeding. I am so guilty of not getting more tanks ready myself. Some of the fish have suffered fin damage from the overcrowding ( and that was in the larger tanks ) but that all gets fixed with the new tanks going up. ( I'm currently working 22 spawns with only 6 growout tanks. You do the math. )

I'm glad you have joined the ranks of the "responsible" fish breeders. I'm sure your LFS can see the difference in your fish versus what they used to get from their suppliers. That is how it all starts. Once their customers see good quality, they will demand good quality and not buy the crap anymore making it useless for the store to buy lower quality fish. It IS the snowball effect. Keep up the good work.
BTW, NICE FINS I mean NICE FISH!!! Keep that up and I'll have to bring you to FL to run my hatchery

 

[Andy Sager]

Well, it's update time:
The 2 pairs of barred marbles both spawned and the eggs hatched on the same days for each. I left the spawn with the regular parents while I separated the spawn from the veiltail pair. I watched the parents do a good job on the eggs and they started playing " Find the fry" once they hatched ( they almost convinced me they had eaten the spawn ) but tonight, I was unable to tell for sure whether those fry are still with us. Not a big deal. It was a small spawn anyway. They will get pulled the next time. The veiltail spawn is also small but the eggs themselves were large in comparison to the larger 1/2 black fish and the fry look larger too so I will have a tank ready for them once they become free swimming. The fry from the Silver veil/ Zebra veil siblings are all doing great. There are more of them than I thought so I am excited to see what comes from them.
And speaking of the 1/2 blacks, I must say, I was a little disappointed. The fertility test was a huge success but the verility test was a bust. I did get hatching so they are a fertile pair but I would estimate only about 5%-10% of the eggs hatched. The problem is that this is the usual outcome for both a new pair AND an old pair. So I don;t know which they are. Their size should be that of an old pair but the eggs were so small that I would think it was a young fish's spawn. So I will just have to wait and see their next spawn. Considering that the original male for that pair, ( Mr lunatic lol), is having huge hatch ratios with the Zebra lace, I may need to put them back together and try to get one good spawn from them to see if her eggs are the issue or the new male's milt is the problem. This is fish breeding. You sometimes have to make changes for verification purposes. I want 1/2 blacks and not just a few.
So, as I posted earlier, currently, there are 22 spawns all going from 9 bona fide pairs. ( Not bad for basically 3 months, eh? )I'm still hoping I have a pair in the Red Cap and the F1 Koi. Still waiting to see what develops there.
So there's the update for now. Pics soon as the rack is almost done and will be filled with tanks.

 

[fish wrangler]

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/showthread.php?t=333014 will use this as a journal thread for those interested. Tomorrow I am going to remove as many white eggs as possible from the jar. Fingers crossed!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Autumnsky]

Members, this thread is about Andy's Hatchery, keep the chit chat and side questions to PM's or the chat room.

This thread is in danger of being closed if it does not stay on topic. Please do not have discussions about other issues. Start a new thread for things not relating to this Hatchery/breeding Angels; the title will be changed slightly to allow for a broad discussion on breeding them.

Thank you in advance. If there are any questions please PM a moderator or use the report feature.

 

[Andy Sager]

Well, getting back to the breeding part of the hatchery, looks like my "reading" pair is getting lazy. I noticed the female's tube was down today and tonight, she was cleaning the bottom pane of glass So in order to discourage this behavior, I had nothing but another slate to put down on the floor so that's what I did. Needless to say they were determined to spawn in THAT spot. Hopefully, the lights will go out before they start laying so I can get something less desirable in that spot in the morning.

While this is a humorous situation at face value, the realty is that if they spawn on a surface I can't remove, it means $$$ out of my pocket. Considering that's part of why I am doing all this after all, it's a potential financial disaster. Just look at the parent raising Black/ Silver pair. The spawn they are raising is about 1/3 to 1/2 of the size of their other spawns I pulled. Just more money out of my pocket.

And speaking of money out of my pocket, the fry from the Barred Marbles were definitely eaten. Just more incentive for me to get those new tanks ready so I can get the fish out of the first rack where they no longer belong so I have the tanks for new spawns as it's supposed to be.

The joys of fish breeding.