Education is the key to keeping strains pure so while its fine to say I used to be anti-hybrid but now why bother, it simply boils down to the original point if we allow hybrids to enter and dilute the gene then the Cichlid trade will change in a negative way for all future generations.
I never said why bother. I said in order to preserve the strains we care about we need to change tactics. We need to educate people to keep hybrids separate, to deal with hybrids in a responsible manner. Hybrids are here, so what are we doin' 'bout it besides complaining and whining? Hybrids are another unique aspect of the cichlid hobby whether they are officially recognized by the ACA, the GCCA, or any other cichlid association. Just as domesticated aquarium strains of livebearers are recognized by the ALA, those who prefer those domestic strain/hybrid cichlids need to start being included. Once included, they can be taught to understand the issues, and once they understand, they will empathize. If purists like you and I continue to be snobs, we will continue to drive away these folks and further endanger pure lines.
I've been in this hobby probably as long as you and I've seems dozens of genus's of fish destroyed, so to say that it's ok it happens in nature is wrong, nature takes care of abominations in the wild as they are quickly dispatched their parents and other fish. I've had friends import trade that have gone on 50-60 collection trips and not one found a hybrid, so unless we are searching for the mythical hybrid Bigfoot...aquariums are not nature!
First of all, the edition I have of
Ad Koning's Book of Cichlids and All the Other Fish of Lake Malawi has pictures of adult hybrid
Maylandia greshakei/M. zebra, which I remember off the top of my head, and probly others if I went through it. All natural hybrids are not removed immediately from the wild, some do survive, reproduce and alter the next generation. You want another example? I spent my undergrad years studying mule deer (
Odocoileus hemionus)/ white tail deer (
O. virginianus) hybrids in the southern Platte River basin of Wyoming.
That aside, with the exception of the severely altered Lake Victoria ecosystem, hybridization is not an issue in most ecosystems. And in properly kept aquariums, hybrids are not generally an issue, either. Even in the aquarium, most fish prefer same-species mates. In 28 years, I have never had a hybrid mating of any cichlid, and I've had over 60 species of cichlids spawn for me, around 40 of those mbuna, at one time or another. I have intentionally tried to breed hybrids, even the aforementioned zebra/greshakei hybrid, and was unable. There is plenty of literature on the topic in scientific journals, and even in aquarium settings most fish prefer same species mates.
I never stated that an aquarium was nature, and the confines of an aquarium do create circumstances favorable to hybrids. And, BTW, the flippancy of the Bigfoot comment really does not do ya credit.
I pride myself on collecting fish that are on the CARES list and distributing them to members of my club and community, so yes I take offense when someone who is simply out to make a buck or just to show off their "Frankenstein" Cichlid.
And well you should, I'd like to get a hold of several species on the list myself.
As for the whole "Frankenfish" argument", you make my entire argument. That kind of self-righteous indignation, the air of superiority and condescension that springs from your statement, is why we have trouble getting through to people, why they turn a deaf ear. They don't hear the consequences of their actions, they hear a bunch of static, they hear they are being put down, they hear they are being belittled and considered as less than human, as inferior beings, they hear that they don't count. That attitude, being perceived as cichlid snobs, is more damaging than I ever realized.
You can argue your live and let live point of view all you want but among serious Cichlid keepers I assue you'll been in the small minority.
You are putting words in my mouth by saying I have a live and let live philosophy. That never came out, I said new ways of addressing the issue must be found, because preaching hasn't and isn't working. I've merely realized berating people is useless. Ya catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
As for the implication I am not a serious cichlid keeper, c'mon HUKIT. Blatant use of an appeal to emotion, an erroneous logical strategy in any debate. Ya imply that my devotion to the cichlid hobby and the preservation of cichlids is less than yours simply because of your standards, and by belittling me by saying I don't meet your standards. You've attempted to diminish my own position by questioning my qualifications, devotion and abilities and by building yourself up as the authority. All yer doing is spotlighting yer own refusal to accept change. I already stated this isn't 'bout bein' right or wrong. This is 'bout accepting the changes that have occurred and finding solutions in a changed hobby.
At the same time yer setting yerself up in a position to "poison the well", setting yerself up to refer back to this to say,"Look at me, that makes me right." Bottom line this whole paragraph is irrelevant to the argument.
Greater Chicago Cichlid Association is one of the largest in the county and does not allow hybrids of any sort in club auctions or swaps, why? To keep abominations such as those out of the ignorant publics hands and to ensure the purity of our hobby for their grandchildren.
These abominations are already in the public's hands and we are not going to keep them out or remove them from there! What are you doing to change that ignorant public? Are you just turning your back on those who ignore you and letting them go they're own way, or are you looking at how you can increase their interest beyond hybrids? In spite of all the good yer doing for the hobby, if one person turns his/her back for every one that you convince, you have accomplished nothing. All the good you've done for the purpose of preserving the genetically pure cichlids for our grandchildren is will be countered by the actions of the person you've alienated, and that person has walked away, likely out of the reach for a long time. We hafta touch these people when the opportunity arises.
Your whole position is built on a foundation of another fallacy of logic, invincible ignorance. Every post I've read by you on this forum has been built on the "Hybrids are Wrong" platform. It's not about whether they are wrong or right. It's about the fact that hybrids are here, period, they are here to stay, and they are only going to get worse if we continue down the same road in trying to mitigate the issue they create. We are not going to make them go away, as much as I hate parrots and those freakin' OB zebras. Ranting and raving and saying yer wrong hasn't and isn't gonna accomplish it.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After all these years, when is the insanity gonna stop on the part of cichlid purists? When more people realize this and start addressing the issue in a creative fashion, maybe us cichlidophiles will get somewhere. Until then we'll keep losin' ground. Believe it or not, HUKIT, I'm on yer side. I've just seen the light...
WYite