300 gallon "Outside Corner" Reef

[Gregcoyote]

I'm looking forward to growing out some decent colonies. I only plan on getting one more fish for my 150 and focusing on coral. I want a fox face that would put me at 11 fish. 2 clowns, a yellow watchman goby, scooter dragonette, blue tang, and 5 blue/green chromis

I've got a fox face. He's pretty skittish.

 

[Stlrockguy]

That's no good. What would you recommend.

 

[Gregcoyote]

That's no good. What would you recommend.

It's not a bad choice, mine just seems nervous all the time. I have had several. They get fairly large. Venomous. Pretty easy to raise. There are a few fish I consider almost must haves for most reef tanks: Lawnmower blenny Orange spot blenny Gold Midas blenny If you're not keeping dragonettes or shrimp, many of the wrasses are must haves. Coral beauty dwarf angel (yes, I know that's controversial, but I have had excellent luck with them) If the environment is right, Kole tank, sailfin tang, yellow tang and maybe a hippo. Clown fish, always, but I would ditch having anemones, they will host several varieties of soft coral. Maybe a hawk fish, especially a long nose if you have a escape proof tank. One small purple Dottyback or a royal gramma, but not both. Many, many goby species. These are just a few.

 

[Andy Sager]

So am I. I bought flower pots at the time because we though they were the most resistant coral you could buy. Sadly, they just took longer to die. Same was true with elegance corals. People also bought large gorgonian sea fans that would be a skeleton in a month. Live and learn.

So true. But as long as we learned something from then.......... I guess it was worth it?

 

[jmay33]

I've got a fox face. He's pretty skittish.

I work at my lfs and I have to say fox faces are by far the most skittish fish we work with in the store. They're beautiful fish and I'm sure they are much less skittish in tanks that are more their size. I love them, but don't quite trust myself with a venomous fish yet. Are long nose hawkfish reef safe? I thought they were not.

 

[Gregcoyote]

So true. But as long as we learned something from then.......... I guess it was worth it?

I and Mr_X debate this now and then. As a diver and wanna be environmentalist, it really troubled me that up until recently our hobby has just taken from nature and in some cases helped to ruin reefs and even some waterways. Lion fish are a real problem in the Carribean as a result of our hobby. Maybe fragging will help redeem us to Mother Nature. Fragging is akin to foresters planting trees, it only makes sense. I destroyed some beautiful fish and coral during my learning curve in the 80's. Stuff I raise easily now. So, I don't know. I love the hobby, but I also get very frustrated when I see folks walking the path I walked that killed so many animals because of my own ignorance. I try to help, but sometimes it doesn't work. Why I also got out of the commercial side of the business years ago.

One positive difference is that most folks realize it is much better to buy a $20 frag of a coral and risk it's either dying or getting big, over buying that head sized acropora that is worth $1000.

 

[Gregcoyote]

I work at my lfs and I have to say fox faces are by far the most skittish fish we work with in the store. They're beautiful fish and I'm sure they are much less skittish in tanks that are more their size. I love them, but don't quite trust myself with a venomous fish yet. Are long nose hawkfish reef safe? I thought they were not.

The long nose will eat small shrimp. But I have never seen it do anything but perch on corals.

 

[Stlrockguy]

I don't care for anemones. My clowns haven't hosted anything. I like the coral beauty but that whole coral nipping worries me

 

[jmay33]

The long nose will eat small shrimp. But I have never seen it do anything but perch on corals.

Cool! Good to know, thanks! I have a FOWLR in planning and it's one of the fish on my stock list.

 

[huma-huma]

do you know what the hardest about following tank threads like yours is greg?? some of us (actually prob a majority) are within our first 5 years of this hobby and prob have some frags at some point of growing. so to see such a gorgeous, well-established tank such as yours envokes a big sense of jealousy. i dont wanna wait years for my corals to look like yours!! it not fair i say lol

 

[Stlrockguy]

I just want one nice size center piece and then I can wait for others to grow

 

[Andy Sager]

I and Mr_X debate this now and then. As a diver and wanna be environmentalist, it really troubled me that up until recently our hobby has just taken from nature and in some cases helped to ruin reefs and even some waterways. Lion fish are a real problem in the Carribean as a result of our hobby. Maybe fragging will help redeem us to Mother Nature. Fragging is akin to foresters planting trees, it only makes sense. I destroyed some beautiful fish and coral during my learning curve in the 80's. Stuff I raise easily now. So, I don't know. I love the hobby, but I also get very frustrated when I see folks walking the path I walked that killed so many animals because of my own ignorance. I try to help, but sometimes it doesn't work. Why I also got out of the commercial side of business years ago.

You and I seem to walk the same path, Greg. I left the commercial end for the same reasons. How can you continue to help people who refuse to listen or learn and just have money to burn? It was the people that drove me away not the hobby. I'm still a dedicated hobbyist

So I'll add something to your debate: If you think about how scientists take samples of living organisms to study them, dissect them, probe and slice them, then report their findings to the world, was it worth the few specimens to gain all that knowledge? This is done to even "rare" specimens. The director (at the time) of the University of Miami's school of marine sciences once spoke at our fishing club meeting. Through scientific and mathematical calculations he said, it was determined that the fish inhabiting just 20% of the world's reefs could repopulate the entire world's reefs. (This was part of his argument to create the marine sanctuaries in the Florida keys as well as around the world.) This comment was made back in about 2000. So if this is true, how much damage did we really do during the 70s and 80s while we learned how to keep fish for longer periods of time? Yes, we know that some corals grow extremely slowly and over harvesting them back them has had a dramatic effect on many reefs around the world. But before they were totally gone, these areas closed to harvesting so that the reefs could rebound. HOWEVER, even if we took none of them back then, these corals would still be in jeopardy today as bleaching has been seen in many areas that once had flourishing colonies of corals. This is nature not hobbyists causing this. ( The debate of how mankind is effecting nature is another topic ) As learning hobbyists tho, we learned that doing what we did had dire consequences so other methods( i.e. fragging) needed to be developed, and were. Would fragging even exist if we hadn't killed those corals back then? I think of it as " Now that we know how to frag, no reef is in total jeopardy of being lost as it can be restarted with frags should the last resident polyp die."
But the aquarium hobby hasn't had nearly the effect on the ocean's inhabitants as other industries had. The oceans have been plundered for sponges for human use, shells and coral skeletons for decorations and been used as the biggest toilet bowl on earth for way longer than we have been keeping marine specimens in a tank. Maybe the creation of keeping marine life in a tank is/was the catalyst to stop these things or at least change the way they are now being done? Who's to say? We now have tank bred and raised fish that just 20 years ago were nothing but a thought or dream. All from "hobbyists" being unable to keep the wild specimens alive in a tank. Was it worth it?
As for the lionfish situation, more than just Lionfish have been found in the Caribbean. This was caused by misguided people thinking they were doing right or were too lazy to take proper care of their fish ( IMO). But what about the fish that were deliberately set loose in waters to have native populations to feed people. There are many Amazonian fish that have been set free in lakes and streams around the world that have adapted new ways of feeding and surviving. In our own country, striped bass can be found in lakes in the middle of the country. How did they swim there from the ocean? lol So you see, in my opinion, we hobbyists have had a minute effect compared to these other industries yet we are the ones doing the most to correct things.

Hope this adds some interesting content to your debate

 

[Andy Sager]

do you know what the hardest about following tank threads like yours is greg?? some of us (actually prob a majority) are within our first 5 years of this hobby and prob have some frags at some point of growing. so to see such a gorgeous, well-established tank such as yours envokes a big sense of jealousy. i dont wanna wait years for my corals to look like yours!! it not fair i say lol

This brings to mind the expression " Good things come to those who wait." That's the coral biz

 

[mr_X]

How did I get pulled into this? Did i not skim back enough pages?

 

[Gregcoyote]

How did I get pulled into this? Did i not skim back enough pages?

Snooze you loose. I mentioned we had discussed the merits, or lack of merits this hobby has.

 

[mr_X]

it was determined that the fish inhabiting just 20% of the world's reefs could repopulate the entire world's reefs. (This was part of his argument to create the marine sanctuaries in the Florida keys as well as around the world.) This comment was made back in about 2000. So if this is true, how much damage did we really do during the 70s and 80s while we learned how to keep fish for longer periods of time? Yes, we know that some corals grow extremely slowly and over harvesting them back them has had a dramatic effect on many reefs around the world. But before they were totally gone, these areas closed to harvesting so that the reefs could rebound. HOWEVER, even if we took none of them back then, these corals would still be in jeopardy today as bleaching has been seen in many areas that once had flourishing colonies of corals. This is nature not hobbyists causing this. ( The debate of how mankind is effecting nature is another topic ) As learning hobbyists tho, we learned that doing what we did had dire consequences so other methods( i.e. fragging) needed to be developed, and were. Would fragging even exist if we hadn't killed those corals back then? I think of it as " Now that we know how to frag, no reef is in total jeopardy of being lost as it can be restarted with frags should the last resident polyp die."
But the aquarium hobby hasn't had nearly the effect on the ocean's inhabitants as other industries had. The oceans have been plundered for sponges for human use, shells and coral skeletons for decorations and been used as the biggest toilet bowl on earth for way longer than we have been keeping marine specimens in a tank. Maybe the creation of keeping marine life in a tank is/was the catalyst to stop these things or at least change the way they are now being done? Who's to say? We now have tank bred and raised fish that just 20 years ago were nothing but a thought or dream. All from "hobbyists" being unable to keep the wild specimens alive in a tank. Was it worth it?
As for the lionfish situation, more than just Lionfish have been found in the Caribbean. This was caused by misguided people thinking they were doing right or were too lazy to take proper care of their fish ( IMO). But what about the fish that were deliberately set loose in waters to have native populations to feed people. There are many Amazonian fish that have been set free in lakes and streams around the world that have adapted new ways of feeding and surviving. In our own country, striped bass can be found in lakes in the middle of the country. How did they swim there from the ocean? lol So you see, in my opinion, we hobbyists have had a minute effect compared to these other industries yet we are the ones doing the most to correct things.

Hope this adds some interesting content to your debate

it was determined that the fish inhabiting just 20% of the world's reefs could repopulate the entire world's reefs.

That's IF, people stopped from that day forward and let them replenish themselves (without continuing to pollute their natural habitat).

Now that we know how to frag, no reef is in total jeopardy of being lost as it can be restarted with frags should the last resident polyp die."

We know how to frag, yet I can buy boxes of wild colonies if I like. It's about money. Just like any other industry that exploits the wildlife or the planet....People like a paycheck better than saving bambi unfortunately.

 

[Gregcoyote]

do you know what the hardest about following tank threads like yours is greg?? some of us (actually prob a majority) are within our first 5 years of this hobby and prob have some frags at some point of growing. so to see such a gorgeous, well-established tank such as yours envokes a big sense of jealousy. i dont wanna wait years for my corals to look like yours!! it not fair i say lol

I see tanks I feel the same way about. Usually folks with more money to spend than I have. Experience is great, but getting old getting it sucks.

 

[Gregcoyote]

I just want one nice size center piece and then I can wait for others to grow

Some stuff grows pretty fast, like frogspawn and some easier acros. They make nice center pieces.

 

[Andy Sager]

"It's about money. Just like any other industry that exploits the wildlife or the planet....People like a paycheck better than saving bambi unfortunately."

Exactly why I am not in the biz anymore. It became too much about money.

 

[Gregcoyote]

You and I seem to walk the same path, Greg. I left the commercial end for the same reasons. How can you continue to help people who refuse to listen or learn and just have money to burn? It was the people that drove me away not the hobby. I'm still a dedicated hobbyist So I'll add something to your debate: If you think about how scientists take samples of living organisms to study them, dissect them, probe and slice them, then report their findings to the world, was it worth the few specimens to gain all that knowledge? This is done to even "rare" specimens. The director (at the time) of the University of Miami's school of marine sciences once spoke at our fishing club meeting. Through scientific and mathematical calculations he said, it was determined that the fish inhabiting just 20% of the world's reefs could repopulate the entire world's reefs. (This was part of his argument to create the marine sanctuaries in the Florida keys as well as around the world.) This comment was made back in about 2000. So if this is true, how much damage did we really do during the 70s and 80s while we learned how to keep fish for longer periods of time? Yes, we know that some corals grow extremely slowly and over harvesting them back them has had a dramatic effect on many reefs around the world. But before they were totally gone, these areas closed to harvesting so that the reefs could rebound. HOWEVER, even if we took none of them back then, these corals would still be in jeopardy today as bleaching has been seen in many areas that once had flourishing colonies of corals. This is nature not hobbyists causing this. ( The debate of how mankind is effecting nature is another topic ) As learning hobbyists tho, we learned that doing what we did had dire consequences so other methods( i.e. fragging) needed to be developed, and were. Would fragging even exist if we hadn't killed those corals back then? I think of it as " Now that we know how to frag, no reef is in total jeopardy of being lost as it can be restarted with frags should the last resident polyp die." But the aquarium hobby hasn't had nearly the effect on the ocean's inhabitants as other industries had. The oceans have been plundered for sponges for human use, shells and coral skeletons for decorations and been used as the biggest toilet bowl on earth for way longer than we have been keeping marine specimens in a tank. Maybe the creation of keeping marine life in a tank is/was the catalyst to stop these things or at least change the way they are now being done? Who's to say? We now have tank bred and raised fish that just 20 years ago were nothing but a thought or dream. All from "hobbyists" being unable to keep the wild specimens alive in a tank. Was it worth it? As for the lionfish situation, more than just Lionfish have been found in the Caribbean. This was caused by misguided people thinking they were doing right or were too lazy to take proper care of their fish ( IMO). But what about the fish that were deliberately set loose in waters to have native populations to feed people. There are many Amazonian fish that have been set free in lakes and streams around the world that have adapted new ways of feeding and surviving. In our own country, striped bass can be found in lakes in the middle of the country. How did they swim there from the ocean? lol So you see, in my opinion, we hobbyists have had a minute effect compared to these other industries yet we are the ones doing the most to correct things. Hope this adds some interesting content to your debate

I can get behind what you're saying. My sons girlfriend was part of a coral repopulation project in Indonesia. The hobby is vastly more sophisticated than it was 20 years ago and the next 20 years will make what we do now look uninformed. Bleaching is the big problem and repopulation is the only real answer for reef survival at this point using species that can handle the warmer temperatures.