Cycle problem

[Thepokerkid227]

Just did a test with 1ml tank water and 4ml tap water. Went to deep purple (5.0ppm) within 30 seconds. Also tested just pure tap water and it has 0ppm nitrites. I'm gonna monitor the parameters including ph daily, keep dosing 1-2ppm ammonia, and hold off on water change for a few days and see how it goes. Should I add tiny amount of flake food daily?

 

[threnjen]

I like where you're going with the dilution! Good thinking.
You have plenty of nitrites, I would be doing the 2ppm every other day.
I wouldn't worry about more flake food. There only needs to be trace phosphorous. Usually whatever is in tap water is sufficient. That's the positive element of WCs - replenishing trace nutrients. Like I said, it won't HURT to do a WC, but the cycle is very unlikely to stall without it.

 

[Thepokerkid227]

I have no issue doing 2ppm every other day but this also means that my ammonia will be at 0ppm for at least a day, I heard its bad to leave it at that while cycling, thanks!

 

[threnjen]

bacteria are very sturdy creatures. In lab tests specifically testing if the ammonia eating bacteria "spring back" after starvation, they allowed them to go dormant for up to 4 months (using different levels - 1 month, 2 months, 3 months, 4 months) even the 4 month dormant ammonia eating bacteria sprang instantly back to business when they were given ammonia. They don't die, they just lie in wait, ready for the next buffet.

I have some citations for this one too but I can't remember what the papers were called and my science paper bookmark directory is way too bloated. I can find it though if it bothers you, just give me a few.
Edit: Here we go, the primary one http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1065156/

I'm not expecting anyone to read these papers, just trying to back up my claims so people don't think I'm spouting nonsense

 

[threnjen]

Also, on a practical note, some cycling guides on other sites/forums go to every-other-day dosing, so even in practical application in the hobby it's not unusual

 

[Fishperson]

Scientists have done cycling tests (in aquariums) with ammonia and nitrites in the 100's of ppm. The cycle will not stall due to high nitrites or ammonia at our small scale. This is a perpetuated myth which has been scientifically disproven.
Nitrospira-Like Bacteria Associated with Nitrite Oxidation in Freshwater Aquaria

As Caliban said earlier in the thread, and he is correct.
Not that he is a scientific guru but just saying, I'm not the only one trying to dispel this inaccuracy.

The cycle can (and will) stall due to depletion of resources such as phosphorous, or a pH crash. Op is monitoring his pH and recently added fish food so there is plenty of phosphorous.

the purpose of the reduced dosing is to slow down the depletion of these resources and will be sufficient to cycle the tank.

If you feel like doing a WC, whatever. It won't hurt. It doesn't have to be huge.

Okay, I guess I didn't know that. All I know is that I ended up with zero ammonia after almost 4 weeks fishless cycling, and my nitrite went way up. It stayed there for weeks, until I did a water change to bring it down, and then my cycle finished within a week. I guess it was just coincidence.

 

[Thepokerkid227]

Today:

Ammonia 0ppm, will dose up to 2ppm tomorrow

Ph 7.8

Nitrites 5.0ppm+

Nitrates 5.0ppm? It was a shade lighter than 5 but a shade darker than 0

Added 2 gallons of water due to evaporation, plants look like they're doing better, also had in 3 assassin snails since I had an outbreak of pond snails about 1 1/2 weeks ago. That problems taken care of but now I only have one snail??! Where did the other two go?! >.<

 

[Fishperson]

Today:

Ammonia 0ppm, will dose up to 2ppm tomorrow

Ph 7.8

Nitrites 5.0ppm+

Nitrates 5.0ppm? It was a shade lighter than 5 but a shade darker than 0

Added 2 gallons of water due to evaporation, plants look like they're doing better, also had in 3 assassin snails since I had an outbreak of pond snails about 1 1/2 weeks ago. That problems taken care of but now I only have one snail??! Where did the other two go?! >.<

probably hiding. My otocinclus do that too it's crazy.

 

[threnjen]

Okay, I guess I didn't know that. All I know is that I ended up with zero ammonia after almost 4 weeks fishless cycling, and my nitrite went way up. It stayed there for weeks, until I did a water change to bring it down, and then my cycle finished within a week. I guess it was just coincidence.

Nah after that long I bet you depleted the trace phosphorous in the tap water so it caused a stall.
More and more I'm convinced that a WC doesn't hurt anything (See Caliban! I can be flexible ) just because it replenishes the trace stuff that we don't really think about. So WCs can be good, they just aren't good for the reason we have always thought (the high nitrite thing)

 

[Fishperson]

Nah after that long I bet you depleted the trace phosphorous in the tap water so it caused a stall.
More and more I'm convinced that a WC doesn't hurt anything (See Caliban! I can be flexible ) just because it replenishes the trace stuff that we don't really think about. So WCs can be good, they just aren't good for the reason we have always thought (the high nitrite thing)

Hmm...

Okay, it makes sense now, obviously bacteria would still need similar nutrients to us and other organisms.

Well I did not know that until now!

 

[Thepokerkid227]

Hiding? They're nowhere to be found! Beginning to think my cat got to them somehow -_-

 

[Brookster123]

Hiding? They're nowhere to be found! Beginning to think my cat got to them somehow -_-

My assassins disappear for days... They like to lie in wait for their prey. Cool little buggers

 

[Thepokerkid227]

Today's update:

Ammonia 0ppm for 2 days now, redosed to 2 ppm

Ph 8.0

Nitrites 5.0+ppm still

Nitrates 5.0ppm still, kinda bummed out it didn't spike any, although it's a shade darker than yesterday

In other news a missing assassin reappeared, now only to have #3 reappear

 

[Thepokerkid227]

All results the same except a change in ph, color looks like it's showing 7.4. Debating on a water change tomorrow or not dosing ammonia again until Sunday. Suggestions?

 

[Thepokerkid227]

Would all the plants I have in be consuming the nitrates as they're trying to multiply?

 

[threnjen]

All is well. Just continue your 2ppm dose every other day and try your best to have patience with the process. I know it can be aggravating. You can WC again if you feel the need, but the level you are dosing is not producing crazy nitrites or anything. I don't see anything wrong with your cycle.
You probably aren't producing many nitrates yet.
You are only 2 weeks in and generally the nitrite PEAK (aka before it starts to drop) is, in scientific tests, at 21 days. The numbers you are telling me are all perfectly in line with what you might see (trace amount of nitrates beginning to appear as the first nitrite-eating bacteria have appeared)
I don't see any problems with your cycle. Just patience and sticking to the plan are needed

 

[Thepokerkid227]

Thanks therenjen, that's the reassuring answer I was looking for!

Joe

 

[Thepokerkid227]

Today's test:

Ammonia 0ppm for 3 days, redosed up to 2ppm

Nitrite 5.0ppm or more

Ph 8.2 not sure why the big jump from 7.4 yesterday

Nitrates still holding solid at 5.0ppm

2 of my 3 assassins appear to be dead, when I take them out they don't shut their little trapdoor, they haven't moved in a day or so, but they don't smell yet, should I toss them or give it another day?

Joe

 

[xsryman]

Today's test:

Ammonia 0ppm for 3 days, redosed up to 2ppm

Nitrite 5.0ppm or more

Ph 8.2 not sure why the big jump from 7.4 yesterday

Nitrates still holding solid at 5.0ppm

2 of my 3 assassins appear to be dead, when I take them out they don't shut their little trapdoor, they haven't moved in a day or so, but they don't smell yet, should I toss them or give it another day?

Joe

I dont think I would toss them just yet. I started with two assassins about a year and a half ago. So far I have counted as many as 15 one time when I picked my piece of driftwood but I only may see one or two at a time on top of my gravel.

They will burry themselves in your substrate to hide and lay in one spot for a while. They are like little snipers.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Thepokerkid227]

Still no change, redosed back up to 2ppm after 3 days. Nitrites off the chart and trates still not moving at 5ppm. I'm thinking deff a stalled cycle going to do a partial water change tonight or tomorrow. Never had a cycle give me such problems in seeing a change in nitrates