Is this ich?

[Jacky12]

The koi carrier angels remain asymptomatic. I’ve had them since 1/29/23. They were the most recent inhabitants of the infected tank. Overall, my hardiest fish have come from previous owners vs pet shops & online sources. They would have passed a 2 week QT with flying colors.

I didn’t know koi angels required special foods to maintain the color. I’ll have to ask the breeder.


Edit#1: 8:15 PM. Contacted him through Facebook. He said any color enhancing flake will do the job. I have color enhanced cichlid & Blood Red Parrot pellets. Will get some flakes. These fish are eager eaters. The little devils.

 

[Andy Sager]

The koi carrier angels remain asymptomatic. I’ve had them since 1/29/23. They were the most recent inhabitants of the infected tank. Overall, my hardiest fish have come from previous owners vs pet shops & online sources. They would have passed a 2 week QT with flying colors.

I didn’t know koi angels required special foods to maintain the color. I’ll have to ask the breeder.


Edit#1: 8:15 PM. Contacted him through Facebook. He said any color enhancing flake will do the job. I have color enhanced cichlid & Blood Red Parrot pellets. Will get some flakes. These fish are eager eaters. The little devils.

Many times they won't say it like that but suggest foods that they don't realize are high in carotenoids.

It's all explained here: https://angelsplus.com/pages/koi-color-explained

 

[Jacky12]

Good article, thanks, Andy. BTW, the first I heard the words red koi were from you, not this home breeder. He calls them koi angelfish & they are indeed the color of some of my goldfish that are often called the poor person’s koi. I forget their name. But I don’t get why they’re called that as the koi at the LFS cost the same $16.

I will have to check the orange pigment level in the cichlid flakes they eat. They have certainly not faded since the purchase, about 6 weeks ago. They look great & regal.

 

[Andy Sager]

Good article, thanks, Andy. BTW, the first I heard the words red koi were from you, not this home breeder. He calls them koi angelfish & they are indeed the color of some of my goldfish that are often called the poor person’s koi. I forget their name. But I don’t get why they’re called that as the koi at the LFS cost the same $16.

I will have to check the orange pigment level in the cichlid flakes they eat. They have certainly not faded since the purchase, about 6 weeks ago. They look great & regal.

I didn't coin the term.
https://nolansaquarium.co/products/super-red-koi-angel?variant=42917352866004

Red Koi Angelfish...Enhanced??

https://www.instagram.com/p/BRrLk5iDcmn/

https://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/closed.cgi?view_closed_item&fwangelfish1666467002

(Just some examples of where the term was used. )

You might be thinking of Shubunkins. They are a calico colored comet which are somewhat similar to koi. The biggest difference is that no shubunkin will ever demand as high a price as good quality Koi can. My late neighbor ( a koi farmer) sold some of his for $5,000.00. Herb Axelrod of TFH Publications had a Koi that was a gift from the emperor of Japan which was valued at $100,000.00. My childhood pet store in NJ was responsible for caring for his tanks. No shubunkin will ever reach those prices.

 

[Colin_T]

The koi carrier angels remain asymptomatic. I’ve had them since 1/29/23. They were the most recent inhabitants of the infected tank. Overall, my hardiest fish have come from previous owners vs pet shops & online sources. They would have passed a 2 week QT with flying colors.

If they were removed from the tank and put in another aquarium, you might have moved them after they shed the white spot parasites and before the parasites had hatched and started swimming around looking for a new host. This would potentially make them free of the disease because the parasites were left behind in another aquarium.

Keep monitoring all the fish for another month and if no more of them get white spot, you should be good to go.

 

[Jacky12]

I noticed a ~5mm lesion on one of the fish recovering from ich yesterday and mistook it for an innocuous scarring lesion. Today it is ~2cm in diameter. I am treating with MetroPlex. The active ingredient is metronidazole. In my experience drugs that end in “azole” target fungal infections, yet Seachem says it’s effective on anearobic bacteria.

Is there a better treatment?

 

[Andy Sager]

I noticed a ~5mm lesion on one of the fish recovering from ich yesterday and mistook it for an innocuous scarring lesion. Today it is ~2cm in diameter. I am treating with MetroPlex. The active ingredient is metronidazole. In my experience drugs that end in “azole” target fungal infections, yet Seachem says it’s effective on anearobic bacteria.

Is there a better treatment?

Sadly, bacterial diseases are quite common after the fish have been affected by Ick since the body and slime coat has been infiltrated. I don't see fuzz on the wound in your picture but you are there so if you did, then you are treating for fungus and not bacteria and there are better treatments for that than metroplex. Malachite green meds will treat fungal infections as will Methylene Blue and Mardel's maracyn oxy ( not to be confused with maracyn, which is erythromycin, or maracyn 2 which is minocycline. )
If you did not see fuzz, you are not treating a fungal infection and the metroplex is the wrong med. You are more likely dealing with a gram + aerobic bacteria and the metronidazole is not for that. ( Most internal bacterial infections are anaerobic gram - bacteria which the metronidazole would work on. ) In this case, I would use Kanaplex or triple sulfa if your Ph is above 7.2 or nitrofurazone if your Ph is 7.0 or lower.

I also would treat this fish in a hospital tank over it's main tank since these meds can effect the bacteria bed in your tank as well as the detritus in the tank will reduce the effectiveness of the meds ( no matter what the package reads. )


As for your "azole" treating fungus, I would hazard a guess that it was more coincidental than regular. There are very few drugs that treat actual fungus. As I've said before, " If it ain't got fuzz, it ain't fungus." And if you do see fuzz, your choices are limited for effective treatment.

 

[Colin_T]

I noticed a ~5mm lesion on one of the fish recovering from ich yesterday and mistook it for an innocuous scarring lesion. Today it is ~2cm in diameter. I am treating with MetroPlex. The active ingredient is metronidazole. In my experience drugs that end in “azole” target fungal infections, yet Seachem says it’s effective on anearobic bacteria.

Is there a better treatment?

Salt is a better treatment.

Metronidazole is an antibiotic designed for people but can be used to treat internal protozoan infections in fish. Antibiotics should only be used on known bacterial infections that haven't responded to normal treatments. Improper use and mis-use of antibiotics has lead to drug resistant bacteria that kill birds, fish, reptiles, animals and people.
Metronidazole does nothing to fungal infections.

--------------------

SALT
For some fish diseases you can use salt (sodium chloride) to treat the ailment rather than using a chemical based medication. Salt is relatively safe and is regularly used in the aquaculture industry to treat food fish for diseases. Salt has been successfully used to treat minor fungal and bacterial infections, as well as a number of external protozoan infections. Salt alone will not treat whitespot (Ichthyophthirius) or Velvet (Oodinium) but will treat most other types of external protozoan infections in freshwater fishes. Salt can treat early stages of hole in the head disease caused by Hexamita but it needs to be done in conjunction with cleaning up the tank. Salt can also be used to treat anchor worm (Lernaea), fish lice (Argulus), gill flukes (Dactylogyrus), skin flukes (Gyrodactylus), Epistylis, Microsporidian and Spironucleus infections.

You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.

 

[Jacky12]

KenaPlez is not available anywhere locally and if ordered would not arrive until Monday.

I am reading thru Untergasser’s book on fish diseases. I have Cephalexin and see it can be used for bacterial infections in fish, at dosage of 500 mg/20 gallons.

I’m struggling between using salt and the antibiotic & swayed towards salt per Colin’s advice. The fish with this non-fuzzy lesion is isolated.

Thanks, guys.

 

[Andy Sager]

KenaPlez is not available anywhere locally and if ordered would not arrive until Monday.

I am reading thru Untergasser’s book on fish diseases. I have Cephalexin and see it can be used for bacterial infections in fish, at dosage of 500 mg/20 gallons.

I’m struggling between using salt and the antibiotic & swayed towards salt per Colin’s advice. The fish with this non-fuzzy lesion is isolated.

Thanks, guys.

This is why it's good to have a "medicine box" for the " what ifs" that aquarists usually encounter.
If you see any redness develop while using the salt, add the Cephalexin. The research paper I read said it's good a broad range of Ph levels. (it's not a commonly available antibiotic for fish. )

 

[Jacky12]

I did order the KanaPlex from Amazon. I have quite the impressive home pharmacy, for human, dog, & cat medications. I literally have hundreds, if not thousands, of Cephalexin 500 mg capsules.

Where do you find research articles? Rarely do I get hits from tropical fish journals. At least for humans, I can often get the abstracts & subscribe to the New England Journal of Medicine, very affordable, heavily subsidized by ads. The med journals I’m more interested cost a small fortune for subscriptions. I need to see if I can access anything as an alumni of the University of California or if my husband can tap into MIT or Stanford.

 

[Andy Sager]

I did order the KanaPlex from Amazon. I have quite the impressive home pharmacy, for human, dog, & cat medications. I literally have hundreds, if not thousands, of Cephalexin 500 mg capsules.

Where do you find research articles? Rarely do I get hits from tropical fish journals. At least for humans, I can often get the abstracts & subscribe to the New England Journal of Medicine, very affordable, heavily subsidized by ads. The med journals I’m more interested cost a small fortune for subscriptions. I need to see if I can access anything as an alumni of the University of California or if my husband can tap into MIT or Stanford.

Through a Vet friend's account so I can't give it to you. I just read a snippet of it and would have had to pay for the full article download. ( I'm cheap so I didn't. ) I wasn't familiar with the name Cephalexin but I found out it's Keflex ( which I have personally used to fight an upper respiratory infection) so I am familiar with it that way.
Fish articles are not easy to come by by "professional" sources which is why I rely on the UF site since they are a veterinarian school used by the Florida Fish Farmers association. What most fish sites don't tell you about is the water chemistry necessary for the effectiveness of certain drugs or contraindicators which is why I use(d) old fish med books and articles from way back. Sadly, most of the best meds from way back are no longer available for fish people to get so you have to go with what's the easiest available while still being effective.

On another note, How do you like the Untergasser book?

 

[Jacky12]

That book is done at the level of a 10th grade biology book and I’m loving it. I expected more of a dense academic tome.

 

[Andy Sager]

That book is done at the level of a 10th grade biology book and I’m loving it. I expected more of a dense academic tome.

This is why it became such an important book, people without scientific knowledge could use it effectively just by answering questions. Call it the " dumbed down version" for the average aquarist for saving fish lives.

 

[Colin_T]

I did order the KanaPlex from Amazon. I have quite the impressive home pharmacy, for human, dog, & cat medications. I literally have hundreds, if not thousands, of Cephalexin 500 mg capsules.

You do not need or want to be collecting antibiotics. They break down over time and are not needed in aquariums except on very rare occasions (mainly for Columnaris). Medications need to be kept dry, cool and out of bright light otherwise they degrade quickly. Most fish rooms or rooms with an aquarium have warmth and humidity, both of which cause medications to break down faster.

Nobody should be allowed to buy antibiotics without a prescription. Just because you can walk into pet shops in some countries and buy these off the shelf, doesn't mean you should. If your not trained in using medications, and you don't know what the disease/ health issue is, don't buy them. Find out what the issue is and then treat it accordingly.

Salt is a very safe treatment for lots of diseases that occur in freshwater fish. It is cheap, readily available, and to date there is no know salt resistance occurring in freshwater fish diseases. Unlike most other aquarium fish medications that are highly toxic and have caused drug resistance in lots of disease organisms.

 

[Jacky12]

The sev died from the bacterial infection. Upon the advice of an experienced person, I switched from Cephalexin to KanoPlex when Kanna became available on the 4th day.

I’m reading treatment for ich should be continued for 3-10 days post final visibility of the disease. I’m reading to maintain a fallow tank up to 72 days. I’m reading many things, including a report that demonstrated no adverse effects from use of the meds contained in the product I used, IchX, following 24 days of treatment. I am likely to treat a total of ten days and take it from there. I will add new fish to this tank, one at a time at some undetermined date. The sevs are not active fish and I’d like to see more color and movement.

I found numerous sources of academic journals on fish keeping. The key is to search for just that: academic journals. All free except one that has abstract only without charge. I will create a thread with links soon.

 

[Andy Sager]

The sev died from the bacterial infection. Upon the advice of an experienced person, I switched from Cephalexin to KanoPlex when Kanna became available on the 4th day.

I’m reading treatment for ich should be continued for 3-10 days post final visibility of the disease. I’m reading to maintain a fallow tank up to 72 days. I’m reading many things, including a report that demonstrated no adverse effects from use of the meds contained in the product I used, IchX, following 24 days of treatment. I am likely to treat a total of ten days and take it from there. I will add new fish to this tank, one at a time at some undetermined date. The sevs are not active fish and I’d like to see more color and movement.

I found numerous sources of academic journals on fish keeping. The key is to search for just that: academic journals. All free except one that has abstract only without charge. I will create a thread with links soon.

When doing a fallow tank, it's best to do a double timeframe so that those trophonts that were on the fish can get into the gravel, incubate then hatch as well as the tomonts already in the gravel have a chance to hatch out and not find a host and die. Raise the temp in the tank to help that all happen faster but not all will "hatch" at the same time. Sadly, there are marine parasites with 70 (+/- ) day life cycles and new forms of freshwater parasites similar to the common Ick so without a definitive ID of the specific strain you had, you can not be sure that your tank is "clean" if you only follow the life cycle of the common ICK.

Bottom line, the longer you let it sit, the better. Unfortunately, that also means that your bacteria bed will also suffer so unless you plan on recycling the tank, you will need to feed it ammonia during this time to keep the bed going.

 

[Jacky12]

Doubt I’ll go the fallow tank way; so far as I can tell it’s more commonly done by reefers. Their white spot is caused by a different bacterium; the one I’m reading about has the same life cycle as Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. This bacterium is a similar protozoan which has a circular nucleus vs the horseshoe shape in multifiliis. I really don’t get the prolonged fallow period, given both organisms are obligate parasites. I also encountered more cases of FW ich transmitted by asymptomatic QT’d fish, up to 6 weeks.

Here is a few interesting articles.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848617317544

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3284114?seq=1

 

[Andy Sager]

Doubt I’ll go the fallow tank way; so far as I can tell it’s more commonly done by reefers. Their white spot is caused by a different bacterium; the one I’m reading about has the same life cycle as Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. This bacterium is a similar protozoan which has a circular nucleus vs the horseshoe shape in multifiliis. I really don’t get the prolonged fallow period, given both organisms are obligate parasites. I also encountered more cases of FW ich transmitted by asymptomatic QT’d fish, up to 6 weeks.

Here is a few interesting articles.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848617317544

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3284114?seq=1

The prolonged fallow is because the parasite has different stages and they are not always in need of a food source ( fish) in every stage. The object is for the newly released ones to not be able to find a food source so that they starve to death. The problem is that not all of them hatch at the same time so without knowing how many are in there, you run the risk of restarting the whole circle again if you don't wait long enough.

As for the articles, they are about marine Cryptocaryon irritans which is different from the FW version we call ICK. And now, there are more varieties of and resistant strains of Ichthyophthirius and other similar looking parasites. For me, the comparison is like sayin you treat a duck hatchling like an eagle hatchling. The only thing similar between these two is that they are both birds. With that, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis and Cryptocaryon irritans are both parasites which follow a similar life cycle but do not react the same under every condition.
I suggest that if you want to compare or study your condition, stick to freshwater parasites and not marine ones. With marine parasites, we received updates for many of the books on marine diseases because new things were being found. Neither of these articles are "new" and may not be current.

That all being said , the one article makes me think about how the fish farming done in shallow water must not be producing the same quality of fish that offshore farms do because, I surmmize, the water currents are better offshore. Any parasite that falls off the fish offshore has a better chance of being swept away than ones inshore or in protected closed areas. That's not so easy to duplicate in an enclosed aquarium setting. The parasites have nowhere to go but somewhere in the tank and the fish have nowhere else to be except in the tank just waiting to be food again. The placemat removal theory just sounds like too much work when a good medication can knock these things out in a short amount of time.

 

[Jacky12]

I’m fascinated by the first paragraph in your post. Can you provide a credible reference?

Here’s one I found that seems to say the earlier life stage organisms croak if they can’t find a host within 48 hours.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/topic...logical-sciences/ichthyophthirius-multifiliis