10 gallon cycle log (& questions galore)

[pdw1731]

I feel like we are in the same boat. I did a huge pwc, like you did, but then I only redosed back to 2ppm ammo at 7am yesterday. 0 no2 and like 5-10 no3. At 7pm yesterday, i re-checked and ammo was back to 0, no2 was .25 and no3 was 20-40ish. I was just about to redose ammo but I (and some guidance from eco) decided to let it ride overnight w/o dosing at all. This morning, 0 ammo, no2 was back to 0 and no3 was 40-80ish. I redosed again to 2ppm and hopefully, when i check in the morning, i'll have the same results.

So basically, you could get away with doing nothing for a day and see what happens organically

 

[Vol4Ever]

LOG MON SEP 26

pH = 6.5
Amm = 0 (none added since Fri)
Nitrite = off chart
Nitrate = off chart

Had to stop by lfs to get some supplies on Friday. They told me I should just do NOTHING other than adding small doses of ammonia until the cycle completes. Maybe even stop adding ammonia completely for a couple of days.

Thoughts? Is the fact that my pH went from its usual 7.5 down to 6.5 over the weekend considered a crash that mandates PWC? I know I'm really close to the end now, so I sure don't want to do anything to mess it up here at the last minute. So . . . . . . . . water change, or no water change. That is the question. (well plus that other little one about completely stopping ammonia add for a few days)!

 

[eco23]

The problem is once it starts dropping...it's gonna continue dropping...and nitrification stops entirely below 6. IMO, pH stability is the most underrated aspect of cycling and can play a huge role in the time frame. The only ways to fix the crash is by water changes and / or using something to buffer your water.

 

[pdw1731]

Hey Vol, long time no hear from...hows the cycle? I'm hoping that your tank has done it's thing and you've been so busy fish watching that you haven't had time to tell us about it

 

[Vol4Ever]

To tell you the honest truth, I'm getting ROYALLY frustrated. Had to do a couple of big WC last week due to pH crashes. Tested water after changes, and all 3 tests were practically 0. After re-dosing with ammonia in the morning, both -ites and -ates are off the charts before the day is out . . . . . . every time. I can zap ammonia away like no one's business.

MY -ITES JUST WON'T GO TO ZERO.

Since I wasn't able to do any dosing on the ammonia after Friday, I had hoped that would give the -ites cycle time to catch up. No dice. This morning ammonia was zero and the others remained off the charts.

At this point I have no clue what else to do. I'm tempted to add zero ammonia for several days and see if the -ites will ever go to 0. What a relaxing new hobby I picked. 54 days and counting (actually 63 if you account for the first few days before I found this site and properly started the cycling process).

 

[librarygirl]

I still have you beat. I tried fishless cycling two tanks in the space of 4 months before I was successful.

How long have the nitrites been off-chart? They'll come down but they do it on their own time.

What you could do is dose ammonia to 1 for a few days; only for a few days though, you dont want the bacteria to adjust to the smaller dose. This might give the nitrites time to catch up, and then go back to the 4 dose and see what happens. If your PH is dropping that fast you may need to buffer it; adding some crushed coral (most fish/pet stores sell this in large bags in the saltwater fish section) to a mesh filter bag or clean nylon stocking and putting it into the filter will help; you shouldn't need much, a few small pinches to start with and then you can always add more if the PH keeps dropping. The PH crashes could be slowing things down a bit too.

 

[pdw1731]

I'm sorry bruh...the one thing i didn't have during this was pH issues so any advice I'd give would just be regurgitating what i've read others say.

Try librarygirls advice...she's talked me off the ledge a couple three times.

I'll be getting another tank sooner than expected...this neon blue dwarf gourami is a bully to the dwarf red one. live and learn

 

[eco23]

Yeah, the pH crashes are absolutely killing you. Nitrification consumes alkalinity and produces acids. If you combine those things in a low kH aquarium...you get exactly your situation. Not only will conversion not happen at low pH levels...but not having enough alkalinity is very similar to not adding ammonia...in a way it starves the bacteria.

 

[Vol4Ever]

Yeah, the pH crashes are absolutely killing you. Nitrification consumes alkalinity and produces acids. If you combine those things in a low kH aquarium...you get exactly your situation. Not only will conversion not happen at low pH levels...but not having enough alkalinity is very similar to not adding ammonia...in a way it starves the bacteria.

So what would be the recommendation? Just keep monitoring all the levels & wait it out? Is there anything else I need to be adding?

 

[eco23]

So what would be the recommendation? Just keep monitoring all the levels & wait it out? Is there anything else I need to be adding?

Did we ever talk about crushed coral or aragonite sand? Those are the best natural ways to raise and maintain GH and kH. They slowly dissolve into the water and keep your levels constant. There's a section about it in the article in my signature.

In an empty tank you can really use whatever you want...CC, aragonite, a powdered buffering agent, etc... I just personally choose the natural stuff like coral. Placing it in a mesh bag in your filter is very effective at both raising and maintaining alkalinity.

Normally I don't suggest altering water chemistry, but since it's an empty tank there are no negative consequences. In fact, the way your pH swings so wildly it may be a good idea to permanently run a small bag of CC in your tank. I have extremely low kH water, and I have to keep a small bag in all of my tanks to maintain the pH level. Otherwise it crashes within days.

 

[Vol4Ever]

You and librarygirl both mentioned the coral, so that's something I need to look into more. How do you know how much to use? Are there other measurements outside the API standard kit that now get thrown in the mix?

I want to keep this somewhat simple, but safe, once I (finally) get to the point of adding fish. The only thing I'm planning to add post-cycle is the small bag of Purigen. It's been in my closet for ages, but I've been scared to introduce any new variables into this cycling process!

 

[eco23]

You and librarygirl both mentioned the coral, so that's something I need to look into more. How do you know how much to use? Are there other measurements outside the API standard kit that now get thrown in the mix?

I want to keep this somewhat simple, but safe, once I (finally) get to the point of adding fish. The only thing I'm planning to add post-cycle is the small bag of Purigen. It's been in my closet for ages, but I've been scared to introduce any new variables into this cycling process!

You can add as much crushed coral or aragonite in as you like...you can't overdose on the stuff when there's no fish (and really not once you have fish either). It buffers to a certain point then stops. Nothing new to measure...just buy a mesh media bag and either some crushed coral or aragonite sand (commonly used as substrates) and find a place to jam it into your filter...or not as effectively hang it in the tank.

It raises GH and alkalinity simply by dissolving what basically is crushed shells into the water column. Once you're cycled (which the CC will help tremendously with...if not necessary to do in this case), you can choose to either pull it out of the tank (hence the mesh bag), do a water change and it's like it was never in there. But like I said...keeping a small bag in there permanently may be a good idea. I can say without a doubt your water is extremely low in kH. That's bad enough while cycling (as you've seen)...but sudden pH crashes when you have fish can be devastating.

 

[Vol4Ever]

My usual pH is 7.5, and it was already back below 7.0 again today. Did about a 50% change to nip the next crash in the bud. I've stopped logging as it's basically the same every morning (except pH flucutations). Amm=0 with nitrite and nitrate way off charts. Hoping to stop by LFS on the way home to try this crushed coral suggestion.

I'm still wondering if there is any technical way the nitrates can reach such an exorbitantly high concentration that the nitrite-to-nitrate conversion simply stops. I just keep reading and re-reading the line in eco's guide "One morning you’ll wake up and when you test the water…Ammo and nitrItes will be gone! They’ll have vanished overnight! "

 

[eco23]

I'm still wondering if there is any technical way the nitrates can reach such an exorbitantly high concentration that the nitrite-to-nitrate conversion simply stops.

You've done so many water changes that I don't see that being a remote possibility. I can virtually guarantee you the pH swings / crashes / instability are the cause of the issue. Fix that...have a cycled tank

 

[Vol4Ever]

LFS was out of coral, but they gave me (free!) some small "lace rock" fragments that they said are basically the same thing. I crushed them into roughly BB size with a hammer, and I'll get my wife to donate some old panty hose as a filter bag.

LFS advised simply continuing to wait while doing nothing at all other than small ammonia doses unless the ph drops into the low 6, high 5 range. Their preferred cycling method, FYI, is Seachem Stability. They said they don't know much at all about the pure ammonia method, so I'm being careful about mixing advice from 2 different sources that use 2 different methods.

 

[eco23]

I've never heard of the rock...hopefully it helps. I can tell you with certainty that pH / alkalinity is the single most underestimated aspect of cycling. The bacteria are sensitive to pH fluctuations and need the alkalinity to colonize while pumping out acids at the same time. So low alkalinity = slow cycling with plenty of stalls and crashes. Keep in mind that not only is stability important...but nitrification stops entirely at 6.0...anything at or below that means you are not cycling...literally nothing is happening (so I'd strongly advise against the LFS on that one). I really have no further advise to offer other than do what it takes to keep the alkalinity up, the pH consistent...and the tank will cycle quickly.

Here's a few articles to check out which cover it's importance-
http://www.thewaterplanetcompany.com/docs/WPC_Nitrification & Denitrification .pdf
http://www.aquaticeco.com/pages/full_width/96/Hardness-Alkalinity-and-Carbon-Dioxide
http://theaquariumwiki.com/PDF/CES-240.pdf
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa031

 

[Vol4Ever]

LOG TUE OCT 11

Like the stupid Energizer bunny . . . . . . . still going, and going, and going.

pH = 7.5
Amm = 1
Nitrite = off chart
Nitrate = off chart

I had a small glimmer of hope when I got here yesterday morning. Nitrite was all the way down in the 0.25 to 0.5 range after the weekend. First time in ages that is wasn't off the charts. I dosed the ammonia back up, and this morning everything was off the charts again. And for the first time in a long while the ammonia hadn't gone from 4 to 0 (it was around 1). I'm not adding any ammonia at all right now, and I plan to check it again at the end of the day before leaving to see if it drops on down to 0.

The pH isn't dropping this time, either. I never got the chance to add the lace rock, but it's been steady at 7.5 since the last major WC.

I am SORELY tempted to do a couple of massive WC later this week to get everything to zero, and then add a couple of fish to see what happens. Maybe that will be the kicker to roll the cycle to completion. I don't think I'll be putting the fish in any danger since the tank can most definitely handle ammonia load, and it will convert -ites to -ates. Just not at the 4 ppm ammonia mark. Besides, as much as I'm doing water testing and WC, it can't be that much harder. I never dreamed this would be so stressful 2 months ago when I got back into this hobby.

 

[librarygirl]

LOG TUE OCT 11

Like the stupid Energizer bunny . . . . . . . still going, and going, and going.

pH = 7.5
Amm = 1
Nitrite = off chart
Nitrate = off chart

I had a small glimmer of hope when I got here yesterday morning. Nitrite was all the way down in the 0.25 to 0.5 range after the weekend. First time in ages that is wasn't off the charts. I dosed the ammonia back up, and this morning everything was off the charts again. And for the first time in a long while the ammonia hadn't gone from 4 to 0 (it was around 1). I'm not adding any ammonia at all right now, and I plan to check it again at the end of the day before leaving to see if it drops on down to 0.

The pH isn't dropping this time, either. I never got the chance to add the lace rock, but it's been steady at 7.5 since the last major WC.

I am SORELY tempted to do a couple of massive WC later this week to get everything to zero, and then add a couple of fish to see what happens. Maybe that will be the kicker to roll the cycle to completion. I don't think I'll be putting the fish in any danger since the tank can most definitely handle ammonia load, and it will convert -ites to -ates. Just not at the 4 ppm ammonia mark. Besides, as much as I'm doing water testing and WC, it can't be that much harder. I never dreamed this would be so stressful 2 months ago when I got back into this hobby.

With the tank in the nitrite phase I would not add fish. I think you're very close--you don't want to jump the gun and end up with dead fish or having to do water changes 1-2x daily instead of enjoying the fish.

You could do a water change now to get the nitrites down. If ammonia conversion is slowing it could be a good idea to do a pwc to get things down and restore some nutritents in the water. Then only dose to 1 for a couple of days; this will give the nitrite bacteria time to catch up. After that go back to 4 and see what happens. It took me 4 months to complete my fishless cycle, so at least yours won't take that long.

 

[Vol4Ever]

Do you know WHY yours took 4 months? I keep feeling I'm doing something wrong or missing something. For the life of me I don't know what it could be.

 

[Christina717]

my lfs didnt even know about the ammonia cycling method and when I told them what i been doing they were shocked. I told them im almost a month into cycling and she told me well it must be done now, she said do a large water change and add fish...of course i didnt listen.
Did you ever try getting seeded media from angelsplus? its working for me so far maybe it will give you a boost