10G Tank Cycling Not Working

[travis_cooper]

First, I'd like to apologize for a cycling question. I did read a bunch of other threads on the subject, but I wasn't really getting the answer I was looking for, so I decided to just post a new thread.

A little background. We were given a tank (maybe 2.5 gallons) that had a gold fish and a couple of frogs. We knew nothing about what to do, so we just added some fish flakes that they also gave us and changed the water (100%) whenever it looked dirty. Quickly all but 1 frog died. However, since then that frog has lasted through quite a bit.

About 5 weeks ago my wife decided maybe we should treat the frog a little better, so she went to the pet store and got a tetra 10 gallon starter kit, another frog, and an algae eater. She brought it home and we threw it all together. About a day later I decided to read up on how to stock a 10 gallon tank and I ran across a ton of people talking about cycling your tank.

I didn't know anything about cycling, but after reading a bit, I decided we didn't have any clue what we were really getting into. So, I bought a test kit so I could see what has been happening. After about a week the new frog died, as of today the original frog is still going strong as is the algae eater.

Sorry for the long intro, but my problem is that I don't see any cycling happening. It has been 5 weeks and I haven't seen a single trace of nitrite. At this point I'm not sure what to do. I've looked at getting a product to help with the cycle, but I have read a lot of mixed reviews. I'm not sure if it is a problem with my tank, or a problem with how I'm maintaining it.

The starter kit came with a couple of things I threw in the filter. I presume that one of them is a carbon filter and the other is a biofilter media, but honestly I have no idea for sure. It didn't come with a heater, so right now I don't have one. I'm guessing that is something I really need to pick up.

I didn't really know what to do about water changes. In the first few weeks I was doing it once a week, but not seeing any nitrites I wondered if taking out some of the ammonia was causing the cycle to not start. So for the past couple of weeks I haven't changed the water at all. My ammonia levels seem to be staying pretty constant around 4ppm. That surprises me as I would expect it to go up since no nitrites seem to be present. But maybe that is just the test kit not being accurate enough.

At this point I'm just at a loss as to what I should do. Is it worth getting some type of nitrifying bacteria product? If so, which one? Should I be replacing water more often? If so, how much and how often? Should I get a heater (I'm guessing the answer to this is yes)? What else should I be doing?

Again, sorry for the length of my post, I appreciate any help people can offer me.

 

[Masha]

I'm sorry to hear you are struggling, that sounds frustrating.

Some questions - sorry if these seem obvious, but you never know what might reveal the answer:

Have you tested the pH? I might have missed it in your post but I don't think you mentioned it. If the pH is 6 or lower, that can prevent the nitrifying bacteria from reproducing, and so stall the cycle. This is the most likely reason, I think, so test that first.

Having the water temperature relatively cool, as you have it, won't prevent the cycle from happening, but it will mean that it takes a little bit longer - the bacteria like higher temperatures But if you have creatures that prefer cooler water in the tank, that obviously takes precedence.

What kind of tests are you using - strips or liquid? Liquid tests are more accurate, apparently.

Are you dechlorinating new water you put in? What do you use? Chlorine or equivalent chemicals could kill whatever nitrifying bacteria there might be in the tank.

Have you washed or changed the filter media at all? Usually not a good idea to do this, especially while trying to establish a cycle, as that can reduce the amount of bacteria.

Is "5" the highest level on whatever you are using to test for ammonia? If so, there might be far more ammonia in the tank and I've read some threads on here where too much ammonia prevented the cycle from getting started. If that is the case, doing water changes would help.

I'd do water changes in any case, to keep whatever creatures you still have from being hurt. I've never done a "fish in" cycle myself, but it's a perfectly valid way of doing things and keeping the ammonia levels low should not completely prevent the cycle from starting as you are seeing in your case.

 

[Coursair]

If your Algae Eater is a Pleco, return it ASAP. They get much too large for a 10g and put out a ton of poop.


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[Mebbid]

I'm sorry to hear you are struggling, that sounds frustrating.

Some questions - sorry if these seem obvious, but you never know what might reveal the answer:

Have you tested the pH? I might have missed it in your post but I don't think you mentioned it. If the pH is 6 or lower, that can prevent the nitrifying bacteria from reproducing, and so stall the cycle. This is the most likely reason, I think, so test that first.

Having the water temperature relatively cool, as you have it, won't prevent the cycle from happening, but it will mean that it takes a little bit longer - the bacteria like higher temperatures But if you have creatures that prefer cooler water in the tank, that obviously takes precedence.

What kind of tests are you using - strips or liquid? Liquid tests are more accurate, apparently.

Are you dechlorinating new water you put in? What do you use? Chlorine or equivalent chemicals could kill whatever nitrifying bacteria there might be in the tank.

Have you washed or changed the filter media at all? Usually not a good idea to do this, especially while trying to establish a cycle, as that can reduce the amount of bacteria.

Is "5" the highest level on whatever you are using to test for ammonia? If so, there might be far more ammonia in the tank and I've read some threads on here where too much ammonia prevented the cycle from getting started. If that is the case, doing water changes would help.

I'd do water changes in any case, to keep whatever creatures you still have from being hurt. I've never done a "fish in" cycle myself, but it's a perfectly valid way of doing things and keeping the ammonia levels low should not completely prevent the cycle from starting as you are seeing in your case.

+1 couldnt have said it better myself. Dont worry about water changes slowing down your cycle, as long as there is any ammonia in the water, there is enoug for your cycle.

Also, you may not see nitrite at all. Sometimes in a fish in cycle that step gets skipped and goes straight to nitrate. How are your nitrate levels doing?

 

[PB_Smith]

Also, you may not see nitrite at all. Sometimes in a fish in cycle that step gets skipped and goes straight to nitrate. How are your nitrate levels doing?

HUH?
It doesn't get "skipped", I have always detected nitrite when cycling and I always do fish-in cycling.
What has happened to give you that impression is that the different types of bacteria get seeded into the tank by the fish themselves when doing a fish-in cycle and if stock levels are really low the conversion of ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate are happening concurrently and you are just not "catching" the nitrite.

no steps or bacteria are "skipped" in a fish-in cycle. LOL

 

[Masha]

I think Mebbid means that the step of the aquarist detecting the nitrite is skipped, not that the ammonia to nitrite conversion is skipped

 

[Mebbid]

I think Mebbid means that the step of the aquarist detecting the nitrite is skipped, not that the ammonia to nitrite conversion is skipped

Exactly

Its not the most common thing, but its definitely not unheard of to never get a detectable nitrite reading while cycling.

 

[travis_cooper]

I haven't tested the ph levels. I didn't know that would affect things. If it is too low, what can I do to raise it? I'm using liquid tests and the color for ammonia goes up to 8, it might be slightly darker than the 4, but it definitely isn't up to the 8 yet.

I haven't touched the filtering media yet, I figured doing that would be bad until the cycle was going.

I have tested nitrates as well, when I never saw any nitrites I wondered if maybe somehow they were already getting converted, but the nitrates are at 0 as well. I haven't tested the nitrates in about a week though.

I'll test for nitrates and ph tonight as well as do a water change. I understand this is supposed to take some time, it is just frustrating when I can't see any progress.

Oh, I have no idea what type of algae eater I have, the pet store just recommended it to my wife. Also, I don't know the ideal temperature for the animals, so I think getting a heater will be a good idea.


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[Fresh2o]

About the "no detectable nitrite" I saw this during my last fishless cycle. Was testing once a day and I would see ammonia rise (after dosing) and next day ammonia would drop, nitrates would be up but no nitrites. I then performed additional testing (every 3/4 hours) and found the nitrite spike and fall within several hours time. I was not catching it with the once a day testing.


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[Masha]

About the ph. Apparently, the nitrifying bacteria use more than the usual amount of minerals in the water when the cycle is being established, while they are increasing in such numbers. This can have the effect of lowering the ph. At 6 or below, they can no longer do this, and so the cycle may stall as they cannot increase their numbers anymore.

So it's common for pH to "crash" (get really low quickly) while the cycle is being established in a tank.

The most common remedy is simply to do a water change, as that will replenish the minerals in the water, and up the pH again. Of course, that's assuming that the tapwater has a pH of above 6!

So it's worth testing both tank and tapwater pH. When testing tapwater pH, first let it stand for 24 hours as otherwise you might get an incorrectly high reading. It's common for tapwater to contain gasses that increase the pH, and these outgas over a 24 hour period.

If you find a water change is not enough to up the pH, then I've read about people adding substances such as marble chips or baking soda to the water but I don't have any experience with this myself.

 

[travis_cooper]

Okay, I just did a test and then about a 50% water change. Ammonia was pretty close to the darkest, so close to 8, nitrites and nitrates still at 0. pH was at the highest the chart had which is 7.6.

Is it possible that my filter media is just bad and the bacteria can't collect on it? I would expect to see something even if that was the case, because they should be able to collect on the gravel and sides of the tank as well.

 

[Mebbid]

Okay, I just did a test and then about a 50% water change. Ammonia was pretty close to the darkest, so close to 8, nitrites and nitrates still at 0. pH was at the highest the chart had which is 7.6.

Is it possible that my filter media is just bad and the bacteria can't collect on it? I would expect to see something even if that was the case, because they should be able to collect on the gravel and sides of the tank as well.

Firstly, are you certain you did the nitrate test correctly? The directions have to be followed perfectly or else the test will result in a 0 reading. Other than that, I would suggest another 3 - 4 50% water changes spaced an hour apart to get the ammonia down into safe levels.

 

[travis_cooper]

Yes, I did it exactly how it said. Put in the first solution, tipped it a few times, shook the second solution for 30 seconds, then shook the test tube for 1 minute.


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[trennamw]

On pH ... You do need to know what levels you have. You almost never never never should add anything to change pH, except clean water.

There's another phenomenon called osmotic stress, it's a long story but every time you put more stuff on the water you potentially stress the animals.

It's ok for pH to be outside ideal if it's stable. You'll learn where your tank tends to keep itself with good maintenance.

Ditto on the algae eater return. Anything called an algae eater is probably too big and messy for your tank. Ghost shrimp and Otocinclus (after your tank is running awhile) are better choices. Otos are delicate, check that they've been in the store over a week and then look up drip acclimating to bring them home. Otos eat brown algae which many do not. Ghost shrimp clean up missed food. Frogs might eat them but they're cheap and hard to see.


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[trennamw]

Otos might be prey for frogs, I forgot about that ... Pygmy cories could be another option.


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[Coursair]

Otos might be prey for frogs, I forgot about that ... Pygmy cories could be another option.


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Not African Dwarf Frogs. Clawed Frogs are super predatory.


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[travis_cooper]

Okay, so it has now been almost another month since I first posted. I've done lots of water changes, I got a heater going (the algae eater died the day after we put the heater in). I still get lots of ammonia, so I'm doing water changes to keep it under control, but I still have no trace of nitrite or nitrate. There has got to be something going on here. I'm not sure what else to do.

I really have done doubts as to whether the filter that came with the aquarium kit has the right stuff in it. However, from reading it looks like my substrate should collect the bacteria as well, so I should at least see something.

Any other advice on what to try would be helpful.


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[Azure Lord]

Ok bro, I want to help you. You sound exactly like I did four months ago. I am still trying to cycle my tank, but I started over about a couple weeks ago.

First off, your pH. It's probably not 7.6, it's probably closer to 7.9. If you feel froggy lol, you can get a high range ph test.

Second-its probably, most likely....NOT the filter's fault. I'm assuming you got the Tetra pf10. Leave it alone like you've been doing.... Trust me.

Thirdly- get the ammonia and keep the ammonia down to about 2ppm. I personally found it easier to keep track of 2 ppm. At the higher end, the colors on the chart just seem to run together and it's hard to tell what it is. Nitrite does take a while but I think your biggest stalling factors are excessive ammonia and....

Fourtly-use prime. Just trust me and use prime. You're probably using tetra Aquasafe possibly even Aquasafe plus. I was using that. I'm not entirely convinced of it usefulness in large water changes. I use a couple drops whenever I add a couple cups of water to the tank( due to evaporation and extraction for water testing)
Prime, being so concentrated seems to work better. Perhaps the tetra Aquasafe just isn't doing the job it needs to for the tap water.

Fifthly- get a 5 mL eyedropper. I don't know how you're filling the tubes up, but I'm concerned that you're bringing them in contact directly with the tank water. It might be paranoia, but my main fear was that trace amounts of the chemicals in the testing supplies were getting into the water and killing all of my bacteria. Maybe not, but better safe than sorry.

Sixthly- when you clean the tank, do your level best not to disturb the substrate too much.
A lot of bacteria get to the filter but not everyone can live on the hill. Bacteria are survivors they tend to congregate where the food goes- the filter and the floor!

And lastly. Get help. It sounds cute but let me explain....
Established filter media or bacteria in a bottle. Established filter media is the best because it's cheap(generally free if you live near a decent local fish store) and they work. They could easily shave weeks off the cycle.
The other option is bacteria in a bottle, which I would suggest if you don't have access to established filter media. I've been using Dr Tim's one and only this time around, and it seems to be working really well. Not sure how much of that "instant" cycle I believe, but it provides the proper bacteria you need. The man has done his research, and hes got a successful track record. Read up on him and you'll see what I mean. He was the chief of research for Marineland-aa very reputable aquarium company.

If you want to know more just message me. Your issues sound almost identical to mine. I tried to cycle my tank unsuccessfully for 4 months. You don't want that, and I don't want it for you.

It was the high aammonia that killed the algae eater. How that one frog is still alive is beyond me. If you haven't named him id go with Zeus or Chuck Norris! Or 50 cent-ssince it's obvious that this frog likes to cheat the reaper.

I wish you the best of luck!

Ill be listening and reading......


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[travis_cooper]

Thanks, I'll give some of those things a try. I am just dipping the vials into the tank for testing water, but I have been cleaning them afterwards. I guess I could see trace amounts still lingering.

Is it worth doing a high ph test? It was just mentioned that it being too low is the problem, it definitely isn't too low.

I don't have a local fish store per say, more just a general pet store, I guess they'd have filter material too, so I'll go check to see if they can give me some.

Yes, the frog has survived more than we ever thought possible. Especially knowing what I know now. When we first got him there was no filter, a nice cramped aquarium, water changes were complete changes. I'm still not sure how he is alive.


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[Azure Lord]

The high range pH test would be just for peace of mind. And I drop her is like a dollar at any local general store.

And yeah your pet store is good. Ask them.

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