Yes a little puzzled on this as well + prime would mitigate. What sort of levels of ammonia are needed to get burns? I assume it would be ammonia not ammonium that would be the issue? Thanks Pip in advance.
5 Orandas turning black!!!
- Thread starter cecejay
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pip walters
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Yes, ammonia - 'free ammonia'
It is difficult to say as goldfish are actually quite tolerant of ammonia compared to many other species. Other factors such as low oxygen (as may occur in shipping bags with imported fish) will also determine toxicity. I cannot find any scientific explanation for blackening of the skin after ammonia exposure - only anecdotal explanation from within the hobby. High ammonia levels normally cause haemorrhaging of the internal organs and skin causing reddening. It could be that skin loss through haemorrhage and consequential sloughing exposes the melanin pigmentation that lies deeper in the epithelium. Haemorrhaging in the fins normally causes severe 'shredding'.
I have measured very high ammonia in bags of imported guppies, mollies and orandas in the past and you would expect the fish to be dead, but apart from a day or so of slight droopiness (not a technical term I know!), they survived!
I may measure more shipments as an experiment and perhaps post results. It is amazing some of the conditions that some fish are exposed to during shipment, yet we suffer comparatively few losses at my workplace.
It is difficult to say as goldfish are actually quite tolerant of ammonia compared to many other species. Other factors such as low oxygen (as may occur in shipping bags with imported fish) will also determine toxicity. I cannot find any scientific explanation for blackening of the skin after ammonia exposure - only anecdotal explanation from within the hobby. High ammonia levels normally cause haemorrhaging of the internal organs and skin causing reddening. It could be that skin loss through haemorrhage and consequential sloughing exposes the melanin pigmentation that lies deeper in the epithelium. Haemorrhaging in the fins normally causes severe 'shredding'.
I have measured very high ammonia in bags of imported guppies, mollies and orandas in the past and you would expect the fish to be dead, but apart from a day or so of slight droopiness (not a technical term I know!), they survived!
I may measure more shipments as an experiment and perhaps post results. It is amazing some of the conditions that some fish are exposed to during shipment, yet we suffer comparatively few losses at my workplace.
I would be interested for sure.
cecejay
Aquarium Advice Regular
I have never had a high reading for ammonia or nitrates...it was always 0...I have taken a sample of the water to my fish store and they had the same readings as well, where pH was 7.2, and I did notice that the pH has come down from 7.8 in the last few days.
The tank is well cycled.
I have fed them peas and they have all pooped
.The council also maintains that they have not added anything to the tank...while the news says that they did add flouride a few months back, so it's strange that it should impact the fishes after 4 months.
I've removed the lid of the tank completely and the live plants, so the water can breathe better.
pip walters
Aquarium Advice FINatic
pH may have dropped due to bacterial activity. Your plants will also use up the carbonates from the water, so that may explain the slight drop in pH.
Poop is good, lol. I would still feed some Daphnia on a fairly regular basis as this is a good balance of protein and roughage. Fantails are somewhat prone to constipation and other internal problems due to the body shape, which compresses the internal organs.
Poop is good, lol. I would still feed some Daphnia on a fairly regular basis as this is a good balance of protein and roughage. Fantails are somewhat prone to constipation and other internal problems due to the body shape, which compresses the internal organs.
cecejay
Aquarium Advice Regular
Ok...i still am unclear as to what the issue is...all i know is that the water hs gone wrong... the fishes are getting sore looking red patches near their ventral fins and tail... Does anyone have an idea on what this is now???!!!
Ok...i still am unclear as to what the issue is...all i know is that the water hs gone wrong... the fishes are getting sore looking red patches near their ventral fins and tail... Does anyone have an idea on what this is now???!!!
Is there any lfs nearby that would probably use the same tap water? You could ring a couple if them to see if they know anything.
Just a thought -- was the tank ph of 7.8 straight after a water change? Just wondering if the change water could have been higher.
To me, it still reads as burns to explain except that I'm kind of puzzled why the gills didn't have problems. Just odd.
I think bacterial infection / fin rot can have red fins.
To me, it still reads as burns to explain except that I'm kind of puzzled why the gills didn't have problems. Just odd.
I think bacterial infection / fin rot can have red fins.
cecejay
Aquarium Advice Regular
Oh, the gills were also black... the pH was 7.2 one day, then 7.4 but that fluctuates without adding pH down.
The fins themselves are not red... the bodies of the fishes which joins the fins are turning red
pip walters
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Can you post another pic?
cecejay
Aquarium Advice Regular
....i've already posted quite a few pics, and it's hard to get them without moving. We've had a huge rise in ammonia, so we've doing emergency water changes 50% every 2 days...one of the fishes is losing the black on the tail, but the others seem to still be the same.
Zagz
Aquarium Advice Addict
I've been reading through your thread and it does seem to be water related. Puzzling as that is though. Do you have an airstone in the water? It might help some. My goldies love the bubbles. If you mentioned whether you had one, my apologies, quite a bit to read through.
I would say that you are doing the right thing with the extra water changes. I can`t fathom what would make your water suddenly change so dramatically if your water supply hasn`t changed recently. The plants will not harm the water however, in my opinion you can keep them in the tank. They help with removal of nitrite.
I would say that you are doing the right thing with the extra water changes. I can`t fathom what would make your water suddenly change so dramatically if your water supply hasn`t changed recently. The plants will not harm the water however, in my opinion you can keep them in the tank. They help with removal of nitrite.
Pretty stumped, are there any alternatives? Only other thing I can think of is pesticide or some other chemical which is pretty much stretching it I think.
Roz
Aquarium Advice Freak
Have you changed anything that may seem quite harmless - eg brand of soap you use to wash your hands before undertaking water changes? Or laundry powder - may impact the towels you wipe your hands on before water changes.
Or could there be another water supplier, as I know utilities are fairly well privatised in NZ, as they are in Australia.
Or could there be another water supplier, as I know utilities are fairly well privatised in NZ, as they are in Australia.
cecejay
Aquarium Advice Regular
Thanks guys for your replies.... I do have a fairly large stone as they love the bubbles too. I have put back the plants, and left the lid open.
I can't seem to think of anything that might affect them like this....and I have not changed any of the soaps/detergents etc... as I've always been very picky about how i handle these goldies... And I have checked with our local council...but we apparently only have a single water supplier...
I guess the good thing is, that they are still eating, however I have reduced the food quantity to once a day and I have only been feeding them NLS sinking pellets for the last few years...
The red on their dorsal and ventral fin areas has vanished, but they do not look happy at all.
Roz
Aquarium Advice Freak
I wish I could be of more help to you!
The only other things I can think of are:
1. Someone in your household has accidentally used the fishy water change buckets for cleaning, and left a residue of soap or chemicals.
2. Your water conditioner is off or contaminated.
3. There is a spray air freshener or bug killer nearby (one of those things that sprays intermittently).
4. There is something up with a nearby air conditioner (contaminated or musty filter?).
I really hope you find out what is happening. I feel for you as it must be very frustrating not to be able to pin down the problem, and upsetting to see your little guys below par.
The only other things I can think of are:
1. Someone in your household has accidentally used the fishy water change buckets for cleaning, and left a residue of soap or chemicals.
2. Your water conditioner is off or contaminated.
3. There is a spray air freshener or bug killer nearby (one of those things that sprays intermittently).
4. There is something up with a nearby air conditioner (contaminated or musty filter?).
I really hope you find out what is happening. I feel for you as it must be very frustrating not to be able to pin down the problem, and upsetting to see your little guys below par.
Well, fingers crossed - hope they do come good.
cecejay
Aquarium Advice Regular
Awww...thanks...
I have checked my water conditioner and everything at my local fish store, and apparently the meds are fine. The guy at hollywood fish farm said that I need to continue 50% water change and feed my fishes only once a day... as the ammonia and nitrite levels did shoot up...without any apparent reason.
Also, with regard to the contaminants, no one else touches the fishy items except me.. It really is frustrating not being able to pin down a reason for the NH3 rise... Has anyone ever come across ammonia burns in a well maintained and cycled tank?
cecejay
Aquarium Advice Regular
Merry Christmas...!!
I unfortunately lost 2 of my fishes...and looks like another one is on her way to fish heaven...!!
The ammonia and nitrite levels are back to normal, and so is the temperature. The fishes are losing their black, but only 2 of them seem to be active and eating.
I unfortunately lost 2 of my fishes...and looks like another one is on her way to fish heaven...!!
The ammonia and nitrite levels are back to normal, and so is the temperature. The fishes are losing their black, but only 2 of them seem to be active and eating.
Merry Christmas...!!
I unfortunately lost 2 of my fishes...and looks like another one is on her way to fish heaven...!!
The ammonia and nitrite levels are back to normal, and so is the temperature. The fishes are losing their black, but only 2 of them seem to be active and eating.
Merry Christmas,
Sad news. I can't think of much more to try. Do they just decline?
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