A few questions on the nitrogen cycle, PH and white spot syndrome...

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LiamCH

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
May 17, 2010
Messages
33
Location
Middlesex, England
Nothing ever goes according to plan with me...

When I got my fish, I'd thought that it was already cycled, as I had been using fishfood and the ammonia levels had dropped down to about zero. It turns out I got it totally wrong, and my tank wasn't cycled at all. I found ammonia at 0.25ppm last week, with zero nitrite and nitrate.

This greatly worried me, as I'm going on holiday in about two and a half weeks, and I obviously want my tank to be stable before then. So I decided to seek out one of the few ways I've seen online makes the cycle speed up - introducing old filter media.

Anyway, yesterday I managed to get hold of some filter media from a tank which had been set up for about four years. I stuffed it into my filter and today, the water readings were as follows:

Ammonia: 0.05ppm
Nitrite: 0.10ppm
Nitrate: 0.3ppm

Does that mean that the cycle is now almost finished? As ammonia has greatly fallen and nitrates as now present for the first time, is it almost done?

Also, I noticed my PH level is now at 7.6 - up from 7.5 last week. Is there anything wrong here? I don't know the first thing about PH I'm afraid. What is making my water become more alkaline?

Now for the really bad news... Less than 24 hours after putting in the old filter media, I noticed the dreaded white spots on a couple of my neon tetras. Of course, I immediately went out and got the treatment... What is the chance of them making a full recovery? I'm quite worried now. Also, what would have caused the parasite to enter the tank? It seems suspicious that it appeared less than 24 hours after introducing the old filter media... But could the infection really take hold so quickly? The fish in the tank looked fine, anyway... Definitely no white spots. Do you think this is connected? Should I warn the owner about the disease in her tank?

Anyway, thanks for your help. I'm really worried about all this now. Just when I thought everything was fine, these horrible white spots have to come up and ruin it all...
 
Oh, and one other thing... I saw online that adjusting the temperature from 25c to 28c helps kill the parasites. Is this a good idea?
 
It sounds like your nitrites are spiking now, keep doing water changes daily and keep an eye on the levels to see if they go down tomorrow. The pH isn't a big deal as long as it doesn't continue to fluctuate a lot. Heat does indeed help treat ich by speeding up its life cycle. The best time to treat for ich is once it comes off of the fish and is in the free swiming stage. There are some articles on it here.
 
Stress tends to induce ich. The source is unknown. There could be ich in the filter media, perhaps one of the fish carried it, but didn't show symptoms? Either way, treat the tank. If you are using medicine, make sure to take out the carbon filter. Turning up the heat is a good idea as it speeds the lifecycle of the parasite, giving you more opportunities to kill the parasite during its free-swimming phase.

As for the ph, it can fluctuate slightly due to water changes, plants in the tank, even things like the type of substrate can affect your ph. Seeing that it is a very slight change, I would not worry too much. Even changes in the local water supply can change ph slightly. Do not worry unless you see significant changes.
 
Thanks for the advice. I have a sponge filter without carbon, so I take it that's fine as it is? I'm quite worried about one of my neon tetras... He's spending most of his time lying on the bottom, almost falling over. I saw him upside down a while ago, but I gave him a gentle nudge and he perked up and swam away fairly normally... But he looks really rough. Can the white spot really have such a drastic effect so quickly? Do you think he'll pull through? I'm really worried about the poor little guy.

P.S. What do you think I should do with my snails? They don't seem to like the ich treatment... At least two of them have made the long journey to the top of the tank to get out of the water. Should I put them in another tank? All I have is a small 3 gallon tank, but it's not properly established and has no algae for them to eat. It also has no heater. What do you think I should do with them?
 
Stress tends to induce ich.
True enough, stress lowers the immune system's ability to fight of parasites & pathogens.


The source is unknown.
The source is well known, it is the Ichthyophthirius multifilis protozoa.


There could be ich in the filter media perhaps one of the fish carried it, but didn't show symptoms?
Any of the waterborne stages of ICH's life cycle could end up in the filter, but it will not live in the filter and infest fish at later dates.
One of the fish was most likely harboring a latent infestation ( Not the same as being Dormant), the stresses of the cycling suppressed it's immune system thus allowing it to grow into a visible outbreak. Latent infestations do not show symptoms, they survive at minimal levels going thru their life cycle un-noticed, infesting the fish's gills.
The gills are the first place a infestation takes hold, you only see the symptomatic spots on the fins/body in a full blown infestation.
Realize that when you see ICH, it is already well advanced, this is why it is often so lethal.
ICH can enter a tank via new fish, inverts & plants/decor, and water from transport bags.


Either way, treat the tank. If you are using medicine, make sure to take out the carbon filter. Turning up the heat is a good idea as it speeds the lifecycle of the parasite, giving you more opportunities to kill the parasite during its free-swimming phase.
Good advice, I'll add more below.

As for the ph, it can fluctuate slightly due to water changes, plants in the tank, even things like the type of substrate can affect your ph. Seeing that it is a very slight change, I would not worry too much. Even changes in the local water supply can change ph slightly. Do not worry unless you see significant changes.
This^^^

My canned reply for ICH.
ChileRelleno said:
Read these articles, read the linked articles/documents in their links, the Skeptical Aquarist has some especially good links.
"Knowledge is Power" & "Know thy Enemy", read, read, read, read, read...
SkepticalAquarist article
AquariumAdvice article
Cichlid-Forum article

Lets dispel a common 'Fish Myth' right off the bat...
ICH is NOT always present in the water/fish...
It is not airborne, it doesn't travel by Spores, it will not come in via tap-water during a PWC and it does not lay dormant.
It must be introduced in some way as noted below.

If you follow through on the 'Heat & Salt Treatment' as specified, I practically guarantee the 100% eradication of ICH within your tank...
Unless you re-introduce it thru lack of quarantine/preventative treatment with new fish, unquarantined/untreated transfers of plants, decor, water or by cross contamination thru the use of equipment in multiple tanks.

'Heat & Salt', either of these treatments alone can/will kill the ICH protozoa, together they eradicate ICH very effectively and completely.
This treatment is especially safe with Oscars as they are very tolerant of both heat & salt.
Please be aware that some fish, inverts and plants may not handle heat or salt well and treatment may need to be adjusted to fit their needs.


Temperature:
Raise it slowly, but ASAP, to at least 86'f, preferably 87'-88'f.
One degree (1'f) every twelve (12) hours is the normally recommended interval for increasing heat, but in a emergency like ICH I'd raise as much as one degree (1'f)every six (6) hours.

Duration:
Hold temp for at least two weeks after the last sign of ICH.

Oxygenate:
This is extremely important because water holds less O2 at higher temperatures.
Filter outflow splash, spraybar or powerhead flow directed at surface, airstone/bubblewands are good ways to increase surface agitation.

Salt:
Salt is not required, but it is IMHO very helpful and I recommend the combination of Heat & Salt.
I recommend continuing the 'Salt treatment' for the duration of the 'Heat treatment'.
Use at your discretion.
Be aware that some Cats/Plecos (in particular Corydoras), Tetras, Loaches and etc, can have adverse reactions to salt.
Fishes that navigate by electric fields, like Elephant Noses, Knifefish, certain Eels should never be exposed to salt.
Many plants are intolerant-highly intolerant of salt.
By raising salt levels to 2-3 ppt or 1.002-1.003 specific gravity above what one normally keeps the tank at can destroy the Ich parasites. It has a strong effect on osmosis, and dehydrates the parasite to the point the parasite can no longer function and dies. Again, raising levels slowly but not too slowly is key here; raising salt 1 ppt per day is recommended. Generally 7.6 grams of salt per gallon is equal to 2 ppt or 1.002-1.003 specific gravity . However, it?s the chloride ions which are necessary for the treatment, and different salts have different levels of chloride. It?s best to purchase a hydrometer which measures low levels of salt to ensure proper dosage.
2 weeks at those levels sure eradicate all the parasites. Again, be sure all the fish in your tank can deal with those levels of salt. On that note, most scaleless fish CAN handle these levels of salt. Plecos and Loaches especially do fine despite Internet rumors to the contrary. It has been noted some tetras and Cory's do not do well with salt, however.
Based on everything that I’ve read to date, I would feel comfortable adding 2-3 tablespoons salt per 5 gallons if I were also using the high temperature treatment outlined above. If I were using salt alone, I would work my way up to 4-5 tablespoons per 5 gallons. We don’t want to skimp on our treatment if we hope to permanently eliminate this pest. Salt should be added slowly over the course of 24-48 hours or so (always dissolve in a small container of tank water first). Keep a close eye on your fish and perform an immediate water change if they show any additional signs of stress (beyond what the Ich is already causing).
For detailed info about salt check this out, SkepticalAquarist- Salt

Here are the conversions/measurements for dosing salt from a reliable source, see page four (4), table 3, units in parentheses.
conversions/measurements
Note; you may want to adjust your dosage +/- as desired.


Water Changes/Vacuuming SubstrateWater changes are very helpful in fighting ICH infestations.
Using a gravel vacuum, do a large water change and thorough vacuuming water on a daily basis.
This eliminates a great number of trophozoites and tomites from the water/substrate.

Other ways to combat ICH
A UVS, Ultraviolet sterilizer when properly setup will kill free-floating ICH.
A Diatom filter will capture and kill ICH too.
Micron filtration depending on the size may perform as Diatom does.


Medications:
I would only recommend the use of standard* medications as a last resort, and used in conjunction with the heat treatment at slightly lower temps, 80'-82'F, these temps will greatly speed up the life-cycle and shorten the time needed to medicate successfully.
IMO this is the last resort, a truly desperate measure for a ICH infestation gone unchecked...
I cannot recommend any of the standard* meds, use at your own risk.
Their effectiveness when used as directed is controversial, despite manufactures claims some still seem to affect a tanks bio-filter and many fish-keepers report undue stress related complications.
Many ICH meds will adversely affect/kill scaleless fishes and inverts.
Many ICH meds will also further deplete oxygen levels, take countermeasures as per above.

*A non standard med, ICH-Attack.
I've used ICH-Attack to great effect, it does what it claims.

ICH-Attack is a 100% natural remedy that has proven anti-protozoal and anti-fungal properties.
Active ingredient is Naphtoquinone which is not known to be carcinogenic as many standard meds are.
Manufactured by Kordon, available at various retailers.
DrsFosterSmith

If you use standard meds the read this...
Do a water change prior to starting treatment and remove the carbon from the filter media; not the entire filter. If the carbon is part of the filter cartridge, make a slit in the side of the filter media and remove the carbon.
Be aware meds will most likely destroy the nitrifying bacterial colonies. Be prepared to measure ammonia and nitrite levels, and reduce the levels if necessary, by water changes or ammonia/nitrite reducers (this is the only time you?ll see me recommend their use!). Water changes likely will affect levels of meds in the tank, and you may need to adjust doses to keep the meds at the levels needed to kill the theronts.
Once treatment is finished, you?ll need to remove the meds from the water. Best way to do this is to run fresh activated carbon in your filter for a couple of days.
** Do note, the directions on the meds are generic; if you remember from the earlier discussion ich has a life cycle with only one stage susceptible to meds. Do not follow the directions when it comes to length of dosing times as some will claim to eradicate Ich in as little as one dose. The first treatment will only kill a percentage of the parasites (remember the Ich life cycle). It?s better to continue treatment till 3 days after seeing the last white spot on your fish; this way you can be fairly sure you have eradicated all the parasites.
AquariumAdvice article
Please realize that ICH like everything else in the world has it's exceptions, however rare.
There has been cases where ICH has been able to complete its full life cycle under the fishes slimecoat/skin, rendering it for all intents untreatable.
There are cases where ICH has survived salt as high as five (5) tablespoon per five (5) gallons. (Not sure as to what this dosage equaled when measured in 'ppm' or 'specific gravity'.)
There is one (That I know of.) reported and documented case where ICH survived temps beyond 87'-88'f.
These are rare exceptions, not the norm.


These are my opinions, this is how I would treat my fish, just my $0.02...
Goodluck!
ChileRelleno said:
ICH's life cycle doesn't have a set length of time, as a matter of fact, it is dependent on temperature. Fish keepers can use this to his/her distinct advantage.
By increasing the frequency of it's (susceptible) stages, we can treat and eradicate it in a shorter time frame.

We can even halt it's reproduction, and cause deformities to any new Tomites whilst in it's Tomont stage, we can even straight out kill it.

Quote:
ICH's life cycle is temperature dependent. Higher temperatures within its livable range speed up every stage of the life cycle, while the lower temperatures will slow it down. At 18°C/64°F the cycle takes 10-12 days to complete.

It has been found that Ich does not infect new fish at 29.4°C/85°F (Johnson, 1976), stops reproducing at 30°C/86°F (Dr. Nick St. Erne, DVM, pers. comm.), and dies at 32°C/89.5°F (Meyer, 1984), [1]

Treatment

Now that we know a little more about Ich, we can develop a safe and effective natural treatment plan to eradicate it. A multi-pronged treatment plan offers the most assurance of complete eradication of Ich and TLC for the fishes in your aquarium. As with any treatment, carefully observe the reaction of your fish to any changes you make in their environment. If an adverse reaction occurs, discontinue and try another approach.

1. Increase temperature to 30°C/86°F. With tropical fish, an increase in temperature to 30°C/86°F is usually very well-tolerated. Since this temperature prevents reproduction of Ich, it can theoretically cure the problem by itself. So the first step would be to increase the temperature slowly, 1°C/2°F per hour until the correct temperature is reached. This temperature should be maintained for 10 days, and then slowly returned to normal. Some fish can tolerate higher temperatures. If your fish are more heat tolerant, try increasing the temperature to 32°C/89.5°F for the first 3-4 days to kill the Ich. Then reduce temperature slowly to 30°C/86°F, and hold it there for an additional 6-7 days, or until a total of 10 days have passed. Gauge the heat tolerance of your fish by observing their reaction.
 
Thanks for the advice. I have a sponge filter without carbon, so I take it that's fine as it is? I'm quite worried about one of my neon tetras... He's spending most of his time lying on the bottom, almost falling over. I saw him upside down a while ago, but I gave him a gentle nudge and he perked up and swam away fairly normally... But he looks really rough. Can the white spot really have such a drastic effect so quickly? Do you think he'll pull through? I'm really worried about the poor little guy.

P.S. What do you think I should do with my snails? They don't seem to like the ich treatment... At least two of them have made the long journey to the top of the tank to get out of the water. Should I put them in another tank? All I have is a small 3 gallon tank, but it's not properly established and has no algae for them to eat. It also has no heater. What do you think I should do with them?


Neons, snails, scaleless fish, etc tend to be very sensitive to ich meds. I'd remove the snails as a precaution. Much better to take them out rather than leave them in the tank since they are sensitive to meds.

You might want to do a 50% water change and monitor the fish. If any other fish start showing signs of distress, or act like the other one you have described, do another 50% water change. At that point, you will probably have to consider another way to combat the ich outbreak.

Typically, with neons, the best way to treat ich is by turning up the heater above 87 degrees. ChileRelleno's post has a TON of valuable information and describes the heat method in detail.
 
+1 on removing the snails. I would also suggest adding aquarium salt (not marine salt) to the tank once the temp is up, but I don't know if you should when you already have ich medication in the tank.
 
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