Ammo lock trouble. High ammonia readings. help?!

[MonkeyMonk86]

I just exactly the same thing, not long after adding various plants to a stable cycled Evolve2. Bottom line: It was the plant debris in the gravel. I took all the gravel out washed it in conditioned water. Pruned every plant. And put everything back in place. Apparently as hard as it will be to vacumn such a tiny and planted aquarium, that is what is required on my end. Noticed you wrote yours was planted, too. Chech out your gravel. Mine made ammonia spike 4-5 days, all the while doing water changes daily, before I realized the gravel was the problem from dead plant stuff.

Good Luck!!!

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Tip: AMMO-LOCK does not remove ammonia; it converts it to a non toxic form. After using AMMO-LOCK, your aquarium water will still test positive for ammonia even though it is in a non toxic form which will be removed by the biological filter.

Copied directly from the API website.

To me that reads, you will get a false reading. It will register on a test kit but don't worry because it is in it's safe form NH4 ionized ammonium.

Sera do an NH3/NH4 test (comes with chart), seneye have an NH3 only probe/sensor, Hanna instruments sell various ways to test for NH3.
Online you will be able to find the charts necessary to convert a TAN reading into something useable. You will need a PH kit, I think temperature plays a part here too. I think somewhere on this website there are the charts.

 

[threnjen]

Tip: AMMO-LOCK does not remove ammonia; it converts it to a non toxic form. After using AMMO-LOCK, your aquarium water will still test positive for ammonia even though it is in a non toxic form which will be removed by the biological filter.

Copied directly from the API website.

To me that reads, you will get a false reading. It will register on a test kit but don't worry because it is in it's safe form NH4 ionized ammonium.

Sera do an NH3/NH4 test (comes with chart), seneye have an NH3 only probe/sensor, Hanna instruments sell various ways to test for NH3.
Online you will be able to find the charts necessary to convert a TAN reading into something useable. You will need a PH kit, I think temperature plays a part here too. I think somewhere on this website there are the charts.

Yes, we have discussed all of this at length starting on page 2 of the thread. I see nothing at all wrong with jumping in late to a thread and the more the merrier, but it can definitely lead to some unnecessary redundancy and confusion if you don't get up to speed with the discussion.

I still disagree with the term "false reading" as it is misleading and confuses people. The API test is intended to test for both NH3+NH4. If it does its job, aka tests for NH3 and NH4, that reading is not "false". It has properly and correctly done its job. The % of NH3 or NH4 (in context of the test working) is neither here nor there - the reading is not "false". Perhaps we are just interpreting this differently.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I have read the thread, if you use ammo lock you can't make use of an ammonia test kit to extrapolate an NH3 reading because NH3 simply does not exist in such a situation. You will get a reading for ionized NH4 only.

What have I missed?

 

[threnjen]

I have read the thread, if you use ammo lock you can't make use of an ammonia test kit to extrapolate an NH3 reading because NH3 simply does not exist in such a situation. You will get a reading for ionized NH4 only.

What have I missed?

I guess I just missed your overall point. If this is your point I agree it's kind of true, but ammo lock only works for 24 hours so it's still important to know what your free ammonia levels are when you're not being chemically protected. As soon as that ammo lock wears off you'll want to know your TAN to do the calculation.

I still don't agree to call it a "false" reading as the test is still testing what is intended, because any reading of ammonia "good" form or "bad" form indicates an uncycled tank. You need to know if there is ammonia, whether or not it is locked down.

 

[Delapool]

That's an interesting one. I would prefer false reading referred to certain conditions where the test reads completely wrong (lost the website but it would be rare) as I think the test kit is doing what it says.

However it's not uncommon to see a reading of say 0.25 after a water change referred to as a false reading. So I think the horse has bolted? I agree that if it persists than it can't be a 'false reading' and perhaps we should say a follow up test is needed in say 24hrs?

 

[Caliban07]

The API master test kit measures the TAN total ammonia in the system. Ammo lock doesn't make the test kit give a false reading as the total amount of ammonia is the same. If anything it is still giving a true reading. Ammolock just means that the total ammonia in the system is now safe for 24hrs.

Prime is better. It lasts up to 48 hours and converts ammonia nitrite and nitrate to their less toxic forms.

 

[Hobgob]

Can I ask why not? The reason I ask is that I have used it for water changes and fail to understand the problem with using it. Many thanks.

Why would you need it? A cycled tank shouldn't have any ammonia so your just adding extra chemicals. Then in 24hours it's all back

 

[Delapool]

Why would you need it? A cycled tank shouldn't have any ammonia so your just adding extra chemicals. Then in 24hours it's all back

I think I see the confusion.

I need it as I'm dechlorinating tap water with it instead of say prime.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Most places would suggest prime is good for new tanks. As many places suggest the use of ammo lock in an emergency on a cycled system(to save lives)

I stick by my original point, biased against chemicals.
(Never used anything other than meds and occasionally carbon chips)

However, I have taken the time to read up on ammo lock (again), I still say while it is in use, you can't make an accurate test for nh3 at any point. In such conditions a specific nh3 kit is needed. It does change back after time agreed but there is no way of knowing the % of change while the chemical is in the water course. It is safe up to 10 times overdose (according to API independent test, university of Georgia, medical micro biology)
Now. To know precisely the volume of water and the precise dose of ammolock, that is not so easy in an uncontrolled environment. Medical grade measuring equipment very often isn't in every fish keepers arsenal.
I can't find any data on its fall off rate, I can't find anything about dissipation. Once added it's there until removed (carbon/water changes)

I know the rough volumes of my tanks, not the precise volumes, I think that's why a lot of meds etc. have an overdose acceptance calculated in.

As you disrupt the cycle you could get the nitrite spike again which is just as deadly, so you push the problem into next week, by its use the only thing you gain is time.

The best control for ammonia in my mind is extra effort and water changes. The problem is usually, too many fish, too much food, not enough filter capacity, not enough water changes, a dead fish.
Cycle through that list first, then consider the action needed to correct the imbalance.

99% of the time a water change or 10 will fix it. (This includes cleaning filters/substrate etc.)
For the basic water change, this will be up to 3 times a day to maintain things for maybe a month or until tests prove satisfactory.


(I use pond de-chlorinator inc. chloramines, heavy metals) it has no effect on ammonia in the tank except to disassociate chlorine from ammonia, this happens before water is added to tank with no recorded problems. (Yet) (RO/tap mix)

 

[Caliban07]

Most places would suggest prime is good for new tanks. As many places suggest the use of ammo lock in an emergency on a cycled system(to save lives)



I stick by my original point, biased against chemicals.

(Never used anything other than meds and occasionally carbon chips)



However, I have taken the time to read up on ammo lock (again), I still say while it is in use, you can't make an accurate test for nh3 at any point. In such conditions a specific nh3 kit is needed. It does change back after time agreed but there is no way of knowing the % of change while the chemical is in the water course. It is safe up to 10 times overdose (according to API independent test, university of Georgia, medical micro biology)

Now. To know precisely the volume of water and the precise dose of ammolock, that is not so easy in an uncontrolled environment. Medical grade measuring equipment very often isn't in every fish keepers arsenal.

I can't find any data on its fall off rate, I can't find anything about dissipation. Once added it's there until removed (carbon/water changes)



I know the rough volumes of my tanks, not the precise volumes, I think that's why a lot of meds etc. have an overdose acceptance calculated in.



As you disrupt the cycle you could get the nitrite spike again which is just as deadly, so you push the problem into next week, by its use the only thing you gain is time.



The best control for ammonia in my mind is extra effort and water changes. The problem is usually, too many fish, too much food, not enough filter capacity, not enough water changes, a dead fish.

Cycle through that list first, then consider the action needed to correct the imbalance.



99% of the time a water change or 10 will fix it. (This includes cleaning filters/substrate etc.)

For the basic water change, this will be up to 3 times a day to maintain things for maybe a month or until tests prove satisfactory.





(I use pond de-chlorinator inc. chloramines, heavy metals) it has no effect on ammonia in the tank except to disassociate chlorine from ammonia, this happens before water is added to tank with no recorded problems. (Yet)

What happens if you tap water contains elevated levels of ammonia? Cut it with RO? Then you are back to adding chemicals to replenish missing nutrients. I see what you're saying but these products do have their uses. Prime is used and recommended by many on here.

Of course water changes are better. But in an emergency there is nothing wrong with adding prime or ammolock in my opinion. I would always advocate a water change first mind.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

What happens if you tap water contains elevated levels of ammonia? Cut it with RO?
Then you are back to adding chemicals to replenish missing nutrients.

I see what you're saying but these products do have their uses. Prime is used and recommended by many on here.

Of course water changes are better. But in an emergency there is nothing wrong with adding prime or ammolock in my opinion. I would always advocate a water change first mind.

No you are not.
The RO cut will work a bit but I think that's excessive and expensive way of controlling ammonia. In any case a small amount of ammonia is quickly dealt with by a healthy filter. This happens every time you feed etc.
If you have ammonia in your tap water, I suggest pre-filtering it with zeolite based chemicals. These are not liquid additions, more like a resin through which the water passes. Same thing as DI resin. Take it out and it's gone.

I'm not against prime for a new system. I think continued use of chemicals is unnecessary long term. Balance of a system shouldn't rely on chemicals. As I have said, really I only use meds and carbon. Obviously with a dechlorinator for my tap water.

 

[Delapool]

I've used ammo lock for dechlorinating tap water for a few years and generally I test the next night after a water change and get no ammonia. I don't see the fuss this product seems to create?, it's quick and easy.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I've used ammo lock for dechlorinating tap water for a few years and generally I test the next night after a water change and get no ammonia. I don't see the fuss this product seems to create?, it's quick and easy.

In a healthy system? Your filter is working that's all.

I've said it can be used in a healthy system. I just wouldn't use it.
You will find you get the same results if you stopped using it and used a regular de chlorinate product. Which leads back to, why use it at all?
You could add ammonia rich source water to a healthy system and test 0 after 24 hrs. Chemical free.

There are other ways to deal with source ammonia and better alternatives to de-chlorinate water. I mean those which cause no other effects good or bad.

I think fuss here maybe wrong, it is a debate I'd say. Look elsewhere for the fuss! The web is full of the problems associated with this product. Although mostly by new fish keepers, those with greater knowledge may look past the initial problem of high ammonia reading knowing what they are using and the effect of the product in use.

These are a collection of opinions by individuals. Nothing else.

 

[Hobgob]

What happens if you tap water contains elevated levels of ammonia? Cut it with RO? Then you are back to adding chemicals to replenish missing nutrients. I see what you're saying but these products do have their uses. Prime is used and recommended by many on here.

Of course water changes are better. But in an emergency there is nothing wrong with adding prime or ammolock in my opinion. I would always advocate a water change first mind.

You don't need chemicals to replenish... Many other ways.

 

[Caliban07]

I've used ammo lock for dechlorinating tap water for a few years and generally I test the next night after a water change and get no ammonia. I don't see the fuss this product seems to create?, it's quick and easy.

This is my point. Most people know that a water change is better for reducing ammonia (dilution) and most people know a healthy filter will control ammonia (biological filtration) but i really don't see what the problem with prime or ammolock is. The whole zeolite and cutting tap water seems excessive to me when there is a perfectly good 'conditioner' that dechlorinates and bonds harmful toxins. I would actually be more wary of adding meds to my tank than prime or ammolock.

 

[Hobgob]

I've used ammo lock for dechlorinating tap water for a few years and generally I test the next night after a water change and get no ammonia. I don't see the fuss this product seems to create?, it's quick and easy.

Sometimes quick and easy isn't always best. Isn't that what we are trying to do? Raise our fish to our best ability?

 

[Caliban07]

You don't need chemicals to replenish... Many other ways.

Just an example.....

 

[Caliban07]

Sometimes quick and easy isn't always best. Isn't that what we are trying to do? Raise our fish to our best ability?

Oh no unsubscribe......

 

[Delapool]

Well that's what I don't understand is the problems this product is meant to cause ? I use it to dechlorinate tap water every water change which is then used to go into a 2 year old tank. Basically a water conditioner. It is pretty common in the shops here but if it went out of business I'd get another water conditioner type and expect similar results that tap water is made safe.

Any ammonia reading I get means I do a follow up test the next night to see if it has settled down. Usually that has been where I can trace back to adding new fish or a problem with the filters, otherwise I just don't get any problems with it and so just curious on the issues.

I agree that chemicals shouldn't be added without a purpose but I've never heard or experienced a problem with any water conditioner.