Ammo lock trouble. High ammonia readings. help?!

[Delapool]

I have a feeling its your test kit or the products your using or both. Ammolock amquel and prime will all give false readings for high levels of ammonia. I pretty sure with an ammonia level of 8ppm your fish would all be dead.

Nope, it can be done

I've seen one other thread that had the ammonia reading that high and for mine it was about 4 to 5ppm easily for a week or so. Classic mini cycle from filter problems. It was quite interesting that the fish showed no problems at all ( the fish keeper was more stressed!) with no burns, no sulking from the neons and no fry deaths. Tank ph would have been just above 7.

 

[threnjen]

Well 8ppm TAN at 7.0 pH would be .045 free ammonia, which is definitely way above the acceptable level of .02 free ammonia, but it's not impossible that Ammo Lock is locking all of that down.
The low pH is helpful in this situation, I think if the Op's pH were higher these fish would be dead.

 

[Delapool]

And a new tank as well! I always thought a mature tank would have less chance of fish deaths in this situation as everything is more established hopefully but thinking on this (re Pip's post on a mature tank).

 

[k.jonesy]

The cure for a high ammonia reading is simple, do a 50% water change. If the reading is above 0.25ppm after a 50% change then wait a few hours and do another 50% change. Rinse and repeat until ammonia is gone.

i do huge water changes as much as 50%. It definitely reduces ammonia but its still high (above 1ppm) but then it will be back up to 6ppm by the next day. i dont know what to do. people say to do large water changes but also that doing so could cause more harm!

 

[k.jonesy]

This is simply a misunderstanding of how ammonia works in the aquarium and what these products do.
Trying to make it short and non-lecturey....
Ammonia can exist in the aquarium in a form harmful to fish called Free Ammonia (NH3). It can also exist in a form NOT harmful to fish called Ammonium (NH4).
Usually, the amount of NH4 to NH3 is ENTIRELY determined by your pH and temperature. Ammonia literally becomes ammonium instantly and vice versa as the ammonia molecules become ionized or deionized as the pH/temp fluctuate. NH3 the harmful ammonia is actually a VERY small percentage of the total ammonia reading which is what the API master test kit gives us (API kit tells us the total sum of NH3 and NH4). In fact it does this by altering the pH of the water so that all of the ammonia is a single type, and then it measures just the one type.

Any sort of dechlor that has an ammonia-locking component is forcibly turning harmful Free Ammonia NH3 into safe Ammonium NH4.
It's not removing it from the water, and it's not giving a "false positive" on the test kits because it is still there.
All of the "locking" products wear off in 24 hours and any free ammonia that has been forced into compliance will again become free ammonia and become harmful.


Sorry that wasn't so short after all.

i just looked up the Ammonia test kit im using and found that it is a NH3/NH4 test kit. could the ammo lock be converting my ammo to NH4 which is safer but the test kit doesn't discriminate against the two and the reading im getting is actually NH4?

 

[Delapool]

i do huge water changes as much as 50%. It definitely reduces ammonia but its still high (above 1ppm) but then it will be back up to 6ppm by the next day. i dont know what to do. people say to do large water changes but also that doing so could cause more harm!

Generally I don't like to do more than 50% but people here will happily do more with no issues.

In your case keeping ammonia down is most critical. And after a few 50% pwc's your tank water would be pretty close to tap water.

On mine I started at about 15% pwc per week and now do about 40%. During the mini-cycle I had the same problem - large water changes of >50% daily just helped not solved. Eventually the bacteria caught up and then the nitrite spike started...

Edit - but I lost no fish at all.

 

[k.jonesy]

just did a ph test and found my Ph dropped overnight from 7 to 6.6. not sure if that means anything. used Ph up to put it back to neutral.

 

[threnjen]

i just looked up the Ammonia test kit im using and found that it is a NH3/NH4 test kit. could the ammo lock be converting my ammo to NH4 which is safer but the test kit doesn't discriminate against the two and the reading im getting is actually NH4?

Yes this is what is happening. Almost all of the test kits measure Total Ammonia Nitrogen which is NH3+NH4
However, your level of Free Ammonia NH3 is still too high.

 

[threnjen]

i do huge water changes as much as 50%. It definitely reduces ammonia but its still high (above 1ppm) but then it will be back up to 6ppm by the next day. i dont know what to do. people say to do large water changes but also that doing so could cause more harm!

Honestly if your ammonia is going up this much in one day, there is some other serious issue that needs to be addressed. We have people fishless cycle to 4ppm ammonia on the basis that it is OUTRAGEOUSLY high and a full fish load could never produce that much ammonia in a day. So for you to produce over 5ppm ammonia per day, there is something else that needs to be resolved.

Are you extremely overstocked? What is your tank size and stock?
How often do you feed?
Are all of your fish accounted for (could there be a dead fish somewhere)

 

[k.jonesy]

Yes this is what is happening. Almost all of the test kits measure Total Ammonia Nitrogen which is NH3+NH4
However, your level of Free Ammonia NH3 is still too high.

thanks so much for your help. is there some calculation to find harmful ammonia levels opposed to the less harmful locked ammonia? my tank details are.. 60L, 4x 4cm clown loaches, 1x dwarf gourami and 2x tiny yoyo loaches. no dead fish. not overfeeding. i always remove uneaten food and tank is super clean.

 

[Delapool]

The link below is for normal conditions, I'm not aware of any formula that takes into account declorinater - generally it is considered to be all converted.

Also the bacteria slow down below ph of 6.5 and get really slow at 6. You could add a handful of seashells to help buffer ph as well (not sure what buffer you used).

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html

Nitrifying Bacteria Facts

 

[threnjen]

I found another good one yesterday when I was trying to do the calculation:
Calculating The Toxicity Of Ammonia In Freshwater - Tropical Discussion - Tropical Fish Forums

This one requires a little math on the part of the user (multiple your ppm * the value you get on the chart when cross referencing your pH and temp)
In good news, your low pH means your ammonia is even less toxic. But as Delapool said, it sounds like you need some buffers in your water. You probably have really soft water which is not well protected against pH fluctuations. I use crushed coral in a mesh bag.

 

[k.jonesy]

I found another good one yesterday when I was trying to do the calculation:
Calculating The Toxicity Of Ammonia In Freshwater - Tropical Discussion - Tropical Fish Forums

This one requires a little math on the part of the user (multiple your ppm * the value you get on the chart when cross referencing your pH and temp)
In good news, your low pH means your ammonia is even less toxic. But as Delapool said, it sounds like you need some buffers in your water. You probably have really soft water which is not well protected against pH fluctuations. I use crushed coral in a mesh bag.

Melbourne does have really soft water :/ im not using any buffers per se but i was given 'water conditioner' from my LFS which is apparently different to my dechlorinater and looks like blue crystals? apparently it was meant to harden the water also add some salts minerals etc. Not sure if its working..

 

[threnjen]

What;s it called?

 

[k.jonesy]

I found another good one yesterday when I was trying to do the calculation:
Calculating The Toxicity Of Ammonia In Freshwater - Tropical Discussion - Tropical Fish Forums

This one requires a little math on the part of the user (multiple your ppm * the value you get on the chart when cross referencing your pH and temp)
In good news, your low pH means your ammonia is even less toxic. But as Delapool said, it sounds like you need some buffers in your water. You probably have really soft water which is not well protected against pH fluctuations. I use crushed coral in a mesh bag.

The link below is for normal conditions, I'm not aware of any formula that takes into account declorinater - generally it is considered to be all converted.

Also the bacteria slow down below ph of 6.5 and get really slow at 6. You could add a handful of seashells to help buffer ph as well (not sure what buffer you used).

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html

Nitrifying Bacteria Facts

based on that table my harmful ammo is 0.03. Thanks thats really helpful

 

[k.jonesy]

What;s it called?

Its water conditioner by showmaster. just called LFS and they said its for salts and minerals and isnt used as a buffer but got told when i went to get it it will help with melbournes soft water!

 

[threnjen]

No, it's not a buffer, but it is important to remineralize your water if your water has really low dissolved solids, especially if you have plants. Even the softest water fish are used to water that has a small amount of dissolved solids (like Angelfish, a strongly softwater fish, are best kept at 50-150ppm dissolved solids). My water out of the tap is 14ppm - basically RODI. Yours might be something similar. I also remineralize my water.

Buuuut yeah that's not buffering. So it's kind of not the thing that will help you here.

You can use something like this to know your level of dissolved solids : HM Digital TDS-EZ Water Quality TDS Tester, 0-9990 ppm Measurement Range, 1 ppm Resolution, +/- 3% Readout Accuracy - Amazon.com

i use it to make sure my dissolved solids are at least 100. It's not required though, I'm just a science nerd and like lots of toys.

Sorry I am probably giving you way more info than you want/need it's hard to help myself =|

 

[Caliban07]

You can use the Seachem ammonia alert tester which I use more as a quick reference but this measures free ammonia.

Studies have shown (I'll try to find the link) that at ammonia levels at 0.05ppm ammonia start to burn the fishes gills.

At a reading of 0.025ppm on the ammonia alert tester by Seachem 0.025 is considered an alert! All values above this are warnings and 'do something now' levels.

This is the chart that was devised by a member if this forum based on temp and ph.

Notice how things start going yellow then red the closer the values get to 0.05ppm ammonia.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html

My API test kit showed 0.25ppm ammonia throughout my fish in cycle. No more and no less. Fish shown no signs of distress and all the fish I used are still alive.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

This is meant with the best of intentions,

thanks so much for your help. is there some calculation to find harmful ammonia levels opposed to the less harmful locked ammonia? my tank details are.. 60L, 4x 4cm clown loaches, 1x dwarf gourami and 2x tiny yoyo loaches. no dead fish. not overfeeding. i always remove uneaten food and tank is super clean.

You may need a bigger tank! I would suggest just for the clowns something quite a lot bigger. If they are housed in a tank that is too small for too long stunting will occur which will lead to deformities of internal organs, the liver in particular, this will lead to a premature death.

(Sorry that sounds morbid, just saying)

The yo yo loach Botia lohachata (almorhae) by my experience will also do better in a larger system, ( I gave mine to a friend when I moved, they were much more active on that bigger system than they ever were in mine) 36x15x15 moved into 48x15x36, the footprint 48x15 would be my minimum suggestion for these.

Tank is ideal for the dwarf gourami though.

Ammo lock gives a false reading, while in use there is not really any point using an ammo test. (I'm biased, I'm against chemical wonders)


http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f29/clown-loach-botia-macracantha-submitted-by-sudz-62119.html

My first clowns (Chromobotia macracanthus) were housed in 36x18x18 this was ok for about three years (first a pair then I added 3 more.)
Then I upgraded to a more suitable sized tank for life (+6more clowns.)
When I moved I built them a temporary tank at 5ftx18x18 they were not really happy in that system.
(11 clowns from 4" to 8" age 6-10 estimate, my care 5-8years)
You want at least five (commonly suggested shoal size) but, they are much better with more numbers, giving you an unbeatable show everyday that is still fascinating years later.

Bloodworm is essential. Prevents skinny disease, fish waste away and die.
I feed daily with bloodworm+extra food for variety, spirulina, catfish pellets, algae wafers(hikari), daphnia, mosquito larvae (black/white)

Currently the shoal eats at least 6cubes of bloodworm everyday, this amounts to about 95 packs per year.

Finally, if you are removing uneaten food, you are over feeding, cut back by the amount you remove, hungry fish is a happy fish.
(Feeding by my experience is the hardest thing to get right)

 

[threnjen]

Ammo lock gives a false reading, while in use there is not really any point using an ammo test. (I'm biased, I'm against chemical wonders)

It does not give a "false reading", unless you count the entire API test as a "false reading". We discussed this extensively starting on Page 2 of the thread.

I totally agree with everything else you said though about the fish.