BAD Cycle.... HELP!!

[jimbob]

Hi, I've been cycling my tank and I'm in my 5th week. Due to bad advice when setting my tank up I'm not doing a fishless cycle! I'm new to fish keeping, i've got the following; full test kit, a 230L tank, Undergravel Filtration + Small internal filter.

In the first 3 weeks i saw the ammonia level climb and drop (I was doing a 20% water change every two days) and i though that this was my cycle over. The only thing that i found odd was the nitrite level never change (it stayed a 0).

About 10 days ago the ammonia level started climbing again so i started my water changes and kept an eye on it (0.25-1.0mmg/l). It went very high yesterday 3.0mmg/l so i did a 60% water change and it's come down again.

Had a fish dead this morning.... went to my lfs and he told me to leave my test kit alone leave my tank to settle of 10day regardless of the ammonia levels.

bad advice?!? Why have i never seen the Nitrite levels raise (it's always on 0)? Should my cycle be finished or nearly finished???

Any help would be good

Thanks
James

 

[CaptainAhab]

With fish...... Bad Bad Bad advice , unless your intention is to kill the fish during the cycle (which I guess then could qualify as a fishless cycle with dead fish instead of a shrimp). You can not expect to have significant ammonia and nitrite levels and keep your fish alive. Cycling with fish means lots of testing and water changes.

You need a new fish store and if that person wasn't the owner you need to have a chat with the owner (if it's a non-chain establishment).

 

[jimbob]

It went against everything i'd been told and read, i questioned him and his reply was... how can you exspect the cycle to take place when you keep changing the water!?!? Time to find a new lfs =D

I test a change the water as much as i can, I don't want to hurt the fish any more that i have to...

BUT why haven't i seen any Nitrite yet? It's my 5th week.

 

[CaptainAhab]

The nitrite porton can be longest.

Be sure to tell your guy that most (if not all) of the bacteria you are trying to cultivate live on the filter, substrate, decorations, etc.

Very little if any live free floating in the WATER.

Cycle: Lots of aeration, temp at 80/82-ish, test test test.... with fish, water change, water change, water change (with dechlor right?)

 

[jimbob]

I've got my temp at 24-25c which works out to be 76f... is that too low?

I'll keep a really close eye on the water and keep doing my water changes. I use a gravel cleaner, when i suck on the gravel lots of Sh*t come off the bottem does this remove some of the bacteria?

 

[CaptainAhab]

won't hurt to raise it up, might help.

Don't gravel vac while cycling. Even when it's done most recommend not doing more than 50% at a time with your water change. I do mine all at once probably every 3rd or 4th with no issues but until you are up and running and comfortable.. why play w/ fate eh?

 

[neilanh]

Your LFS guy makes a point: "how can you exspect the cycle to take place when you keep changing the water!?!?" This is why fishless cycling is so heavily recommended. You keep changing the water, and yes you're extending the amount of time it takes to cycle your tank.

All that said, like the good Capt. mentioned, if you do what the LFS says and leave things be for 10 days you'll have more than just the 1 dead fish you've gotten so far. Some fish are more tolerant to high ammonia/nitrIte levels than others, true, but the fact is that you're basically poisoning them to some extent.

The unfortunate side to cycling with fish is that it does take a really long time to do it in a manner that still tries, as best as possible, to keep living conditions habitable for your fish. Meaning that anytime your ammonia or nitrIte level gets to 0.5ppm or higher, you really should do a large water change to keep it down. Because you control this, you never build up a large amount of ammonia in your tank at any given time, thus causing the cycle to take a really long time to complete. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but in this method it can take upwards of 6 months to do.

The nitrIte portion of the cycle does seem to be the hardest, for whatever reason. It just takes time and a buildup of some ammonia to induce this side of the cycle to kickoff. From my experience here at AA, I've learned one main thing about that side of the cycle, you can't predict it at all.

All I can say is Big Kudos to you for doing the right thing by your fish and doing your best to maintain a livable environment for them by keeping up on you water changes. You really do need to continue to do this to help keep them alive.

If you have the opportunity, however, take the fish back to the LFS or find a friend with a cycled tank that can host them and run a fishless cycle. It'll be much faster, much less stressful, and much more favorable for the fish.

 

[jimbob]

THATS MY PROBLEM THEN..... everytime i removed water i used my gravel cleaner and tried to do as much of the gravel as i could before my bucket was full, I've been sucking out all the bacteria.... MUPPET

Is there a particular way to remove the water... or just from the top?

 

[jimbob]

I've already tried finding somewhere safe for my fish but i don't have any friends close (i've just moved) that have fish tanks. Lfs said i can return the fish but i'll get no refund and i'll have to buy them back (£50ish) which is a total rip off. Next time i'll defiantly do a fishless cycle, it's a shame i didn't find this forum earlier...

 

[spoonman]

I have a good link in my signature that may help. It was from a user at this site. Please read through it. It is some very good information. Perhaps your LFS guy may let you take some squeezings from one of his filters? I also dont think that once you get started, the undergravel and a small internal filter will be good enough filtration. That is about a 55 Gallon tank, correct? Underfiltering may help with the cycle right now though.

 

[jimbob]

I hadn't planned on keeping the under gravel system... I was going to buy a Tetratec ex1200 when i can afford one.... Are these any good?

Hopefull now i've stopped sucking all the bactira off the gravel my tank should cycle =D

Also after reading though some forums I don't think it's a good idea to add safestart (live bacteria) because the chances are it's dead and won't help, is this true?

 

[CaptainAhab]

the bacteria you need is aerobic (needs oxygen). Now, you're talking about stuff in a plastic sealed bottle, stored on a shelf for how long?

There are some that people have had success with. These tend to be refrigerated and have a distinct shelf life. The cold is supposed to place them in a suspended animation state.

In the end everything you need exists in nature already. Except patience.. That you need to cultivate on your own

 

[MrRipfrog]

I was in the same position as you when I started my 55 Gal Brackish tank. I ended up using a Nitrifying Bacteria that worked wonders for me and cycled the tank in about 36 hours.

You can read about it here if interested.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/starting-tank-again-advice-please-pics-119907.html

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Or you can find someone with an established tank running a sponge filter, then have then squeeze, squeeze, squeeze that sponge in a bag of tank water and dump that in your tank. Instant bacterial colony. I did that when I set up my 55 again recently and I never had ammonia over 0.5 or nitrite over 0.25, A & Ni were down to 0 within 10 days.

I also was running on a UGF w/ powerheads. I switched to a canister filter. I would recommend that or at least a HOB unless you want to have a big nitrate problem a year from now that would require you to take out the IGF plate to clean out the gunk under it. Just sayin.

 

[Daid]

I've managed to cycle a tank in about 3-4 weeks with fish in it and didn't lose any.

50%-70% water changes every day - My ammonia would go upto 1.0 before the water change.
Bio Booster - The full dosage (what ever the bottle states) and on every water change would re-dose at the level of water removed. eg. water change of 20L, would use the amount of bio booster (new tank dosage, not weekly re-dose rate) for 20L.

And do what they say, test, test, test.

Be careful when re-filling the tank, do it slowly so the temperature doesn't drop too much.

 

[jimbob]

It seems peoples experience of Live Bacteria really vary's! I decided to leave my tank to do it's own thing and it's been about 7weeks and my ammonia levels 0 nitrite level 0.50 and dropping so it's almost finished =D.

I've got a bit of white spot so I'm treating that now, probably because of the cycle. I've turned the temp upto 28 and using medicine any other advice??

 

[Daid]

Thats great news on the cycle!
Yeah, i just use the Bio booster as a helper, i don't really rely on it much, just remember the shake it up But after the cycle is done, i stop using it.

Depending on the type of fish, you can use the salt treatment. I've used it before and it works, just keep an eye on the fish as the high temperature makes them hyperactive.

I've also used Multi-Cure by Aqua Master, i tihnk. But if you're using medicine, it might kill the good bacteria in the filter, so you'll end up doing a mini or full cycle. If this happens, you'll be doing daily water changes and re-dosing the water you've removed (this can get costly on big tanks). Keep an eye on the water parameters as it might affect the filter.

 

[jimbob]

I'm using 'King British - WS3 Original Formula' Have you heard of this before ie. any good? I asked my LFS and he said that it won't damage my beneficial bacteria.

Sadly because i have tetra's I can't use salt ! I turned my water up from 24-25 to 28 will this upset my fish?

 

[marchmaxima]

Turn the temp up so that it increases one degree for each 24 hour period until it's at least 30 degrees. This will kill the Ick. Your fish should acclimate to the new temperature as long as the change is gradual. After the Ick symproms are gone, it's importnat to leave the temp up for a period of time so it kills off all Ick in the tank. I think that's around 4 weeks or so but you might want to check that. Turn it back down too soon, and the ick may return, even though your fish look better.

Good luck

 

[jimbob]

Is it safe to have the temperature at 30>?? I also have another problem now, One of my blue gouramis seems to be rotting by it's gills.... is it 'Velvet Disease'?

HELP!?!