Bulge on goldfish side. Tumor? Infection?

[Fred-Argentina]

Hi all,

My goldfish has an unusual BULGE on its RIGHT side, only.
Please help me diagnose it. LFS was not very helpful when I showed the pictures.

It appeared overnight, about 24 hs. before the pictures below were taken.

Fish behaviour and appetite are normal; maybe just resting at the bottom a little more often. Swimming upright and showing no symptoms of bladder problems. The LEFT side shows a small white-skin patch behind the gills; maybe lost one scale. I can't tell if it's related to the bulge.

Water parameters are ok. Before a PWC:
0 ammonia,
0 Nitrite,
20 ppm Nitrate.
PH: 7.8. .

I perform weekly water changes of 30% to 50% and check/change filters, etc. regularly. It's a well-cycled 2-year-old tank; always tests correctly.

Actions taken:
1) Performed a 35% water change
2) Initiated Tetra LifeGuard treatment (5 days of tablets in the water - Active ingredient: 1-chloro-2,2,5,5-tetramethyl-4-imidazolidinone) in case it is a parasite or internal bacterial infection.
3) Feeding mashed peas and lentils in case its a digestive / dietary /bladder problem. He's eating everything voraciously, as usual!

Any diagnostic ideas? treatment suggestions?
See pictures below.

 

[Delapool]

Seems to have developed very quick. What do you normally feed? How is he doing?

 

[Fred-Argentina]

About to burst

Seems to have developed very quick. How is he doing?

It's been 7 days now, treated with Tetra Aqualife. Bulge grew slowly and behaviour & parameters kept stable. Readings (after treatment, before PWC) Ammonia 20 ppm; Nitrite 0 ppm; Nitrate 40 ppm; PH7.4- Performed 35% WC (Day 7, yesterday)

This morning the bulge is looking as if it is about to burst open, Like a big internal cyst, or localised infection.

Much like the movie Alines, like my GF is about to "give birth" to a creature. :-(

"What do you normally feed?"

Tetra flakes, pellets, scales (all previously soaked) and peas; alternatively
Never lost appetite until this morning. Sitting in the bottom, I think he will not make it.

HELP NEEDED !! How to treat if it does burst open? What could this bulge be?

 

[em1981ma]

if it burst open anything that will help heal the wound that it may cause and stop it becoming infected. Something like melafix might be good

 

[em1981ma]

Watch Nitrate levels I get 20 sometimes but anymore and it can be dangerous keep up the good waterchanges you are doing. but like you said it was just before a Pwc was due.

 

[Fred-Argentina]

Bursted, but live and kicking...

Cheers guys! I'll share some pics below:

1) this morning, stretching out like an Alien
2a & 2b) this evening.... plop!: It burst, while I was out all day.

if it burst open anything that will help heal the wound that it may cause and stop it becoming infected. Something like melafix might be good

This morning, preventively, I added some broad-spectrum ich treatment (only thing at hand, being Sunday). I added a quarter-dose to reinforce, as I discovered the "popped giant pimple".

FYI, or my own learning, this medicine includes:
a) Methyl Violet, aka Gentian violet, crystal violet or pyoctanine. - bactericide, disinfectant (source: wiki)
b) Methylene Blue - disinfectant, fungicide, internal healing (idem)
c) Malachite green - parasiticide and antibacterial. Fungicide, esp. against the oomycete Saprolegnia, which infects fish eggs. (idem)

Little fellow has devoured its evening Tetra Crisps (soaked)..... like a hungry teenager! - Gotcha!! :face palm: Hence the pimps! he might be growing some "hair" under his gills and anal fin, too and sneaking too much chocolate somehow .

*** Now seriously: any suggestions of what this ugly bulge may be, or on the treatment I am following?? ***

LFS pretty helpless - and its closed on Sundays, anyway

 

[Fred-Argentina]

Watch Nitrate levels I get 20 sometimes but anymore and it can be dangerous keep up the good waterchanges you are doing. but like you said it was just before a Pwc was due.

Thanks! I usually get Nitrate between 20 and 40 ppm one week after Pwc. I know the 50 litres tank (aprox 13 gallons) is on the small side for two fantail Goldfish (1 yo, inch-and-a-half body length). So I make weekly 35 to 40% PWCs with no exceptions!

I read Nitrate is safe even well above 20 ppm, to levels of a few hundred ppm for some fish/circumstances. Can you inform me better?

 

[Fred-Argentina]

Good news - so far

Quick update: Fish is doing better - Tumor, cyst, abscess, infection or whatever, is slowly suppurating and receding.

Photos below (less than 48 hours after "blow-out" / suppuration started)

LFS helpless as usual. I decided to buy a slightly different antiseptic/healer of the same brand I applied before (see earlier post).
API:
1) Methylene Blue
2) Rivanol (a.k.a Acrinol, Ethacridine lactate, ethacridine monolactate monohydrate)
3) Malachite Green

35% PWC before applying new medicine. Did not test water before pwc, sorry.

QUESTION: GF resting at a marked angle, face down, upon the gravel. Could this be ammonia/nitrites excess, due to the medication?; or just tired? Anything else to check? The almost vertical position is really notorious and weird. See the pic below (though not "resting" for the photo, pretty cocky guy)
Edit: otherwise, swimming normally and eating well his mashed peas and Tetra flakes.

Thanks all for suggestions, comments.

 

[Fred-Argentina]

PLEASE HELP! Now black spot around anus.

Side scar of the suppurated tumor is slowly healing...
BUT, the fish still looks severely tired or perhaps with swim bladder problems?Resting long at the bottom, often face-down and swimming a bit erratically when going for food. - I keep feeding alternatively mashed peas for fibre and Tetra Flakes for proteins and a bit more "substance".
MOST WORRYING is a black, growing aureola around his anus, appeared 48 hours ago. Could this be FUNGUS?

I am still treating with a daily quarter-dose of "green medicine", API:
1) Methylene Blue - disinfectant, fungicide, internal healing
2) Rivanol (a.k.a Acrinol, Ethacridine lactate, ethacridine monolactate monohydrate) - antiseptic
3) Malachite Green - parasiticide and antibacterial. Fungicide.
source: based on wikipedia
..... and performing 35% PWC every other day.

Parameters: 0 Am, 0 Nitrites & 20 ppm NitrATE. PH 7.6

Could this black stain be fungus? Should I:
(a) try another Tetra LifeGuard 5-day dose,
(b) Mthylene Violet, etc - if stronger/different fungicide
or (c) just rest them from medicines, and let the aquarium stabilise, maybe removing with AC medicines from the water column.

PLEASE HELP. He made it through the worst, but now is closer to RIP than before!?! That's sad!

 

[jlk]

Hi! Ok, how is he doing right now (behavior, appetite, activity)? Has he been having normal bowel movements?

In respect to the dark area, is it fuzzy/hairy or does it have the appearance of a bruise? From the last set of pics, it seems to have semblance to bruising that appears to be spreading but it's difficult to discern from a picture on a phone.

I am glad to see that his infection is clearing up quite well! Some more information on his specific condition right now will be helpful in figuring out the best approach.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Fred-Argentina]

Things are getting WORSE this morning

THANK YOU for taking the time to read carefully and respond so promptly.

Hi! Ok, how is he doing right now (behavior, appetite, activity)? Has he been having normal bowel movements?

Fairly normal bowel movements. I feed mashed peas every day and some soaked flakes or pellets for the other fish and for "energy" to complement the fibre of peas.

does it have the appearance of a bruise?

Absolutely yes. That bruise appeared only a few days ago, is slowly growing and looks very much like fungus. There a small spot in the Caudal tail, which I indicated in the pics, too. I wonder if this is caused by a secondary effect of th antiseptic treatment (details in previous post)

WORRYING UPDATE:
We have additional bad sympthons:
1) The white spot on his LEFT side (opposite the earlier tumor/infection) which appeared as a simple missing scale is now looking like a white worm or something is coming out. There are two tiny red filaments (blood? flesh?) also coming out. (VERY HARD TO GET ON A PIC, but stay tuned until i get it with my SLR)
2) 2 or 3 white spots on his head, much like ick.
3) Black bruise slowly extending

See pics below.

QUESTION: I am thinking of turning to ick-specific treatment. But with all the chemicals I've been throwing in, and the stress this guy's been through, I just want to hear experts' opinion before making things worse.

difficult to discern from a picture on a phone

Surpsingily I get more in-focus pics with the iphone than my DSLR; also because timing (and composition) cannot be replaced by technology, whatsoever -That's the photography enthusiast in me appearing uncalled for
But I will try better pics today with daylight, no green-malachite clouding, etc.
Stay tuned for pics .... and fingers crossed for the little fellow.

 

[jlk]

Its not ick as its too large. Even if there was some remote chance of your fish acquiring ick, the med you are adding would address it anyway.

Its not a worm or parasite (white protruding area) but appears to be either flesh (infected) or a fungal infection. With the med your adding, fungus should not be an issue. I suspect that area is identical to the other side but the infection ruptured before you saw the appearance of a large bulging lump. These symptoms combined with the bruising are quite concerning when viewed as a whole rather than individual issues. I am actually a bit surprised he is not showing more obvious symptoms of not feeling well such as a lack of appetite/activity.

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with your country's rules and regulations in respect to fish meds. Are you legally able to purchase antibiotics for aquatic use/are they available for sale in a fish store? Most countries have very strict regulations in respect to antibiotics and people can only acquire them with a prescription from a vet. My recommendation would be an antibiotic medicated food (if he is still eating). If he is not eating, an antibiotic for the tank.

Alternately, you may have access to an aquatic (or exotics) vet that may be able to help further with prescription meds based on lab work. He appears to have a systemic infection based on his symptoms but the exact bacteria responsible is an unknown. If antibiotic treatment is not a possibility, the best course would be to continue with daily water changes and treating with the products you have access to. Increasing the salinity a bit may be helpful to him as well (@1 level teaspoon/gallon) IF none of the meds you are already using contain salt (sodium chloride). Increase the salinity gradually (over 24hrs) and make sure the salt is dissolved in some conditioned water before adding it.

Feel free to ask any questions!

 

[Fred-Argentina]

What antibiotics would you recommend?

Hi, thanks for your concern, again.
Ironically, Argentina is a major farming country and producer of best beef, pork, poultry and thoroughbred/polo horses in the world. With world-leading Vet schools it seems that ornamental fish are too insignificant for the big bucks guys son I cannot find a fish vet. LFS not very helpful with such specific illness.

So I will try a general pharmacy, some will sell antibiotics with no prescription - What shall I try getting? Penicilin, Amoxicilin? Erytromicin? How much to dose, considering I will get Human medication, at best. I use all of the above for my chldren so I might even have some at home

I picked those names from this site, so they should work, if I could tell more specifically what is going on. Aquarium Medications: Thomas Laboratories Non-Prescription Aquarium Antibiotics

BTW, noticing the risk of infecting neighbouring GF I set up a hospital tank and will try fasting him for a day or two.
I also took him out and with a cotton swab damped in the Green Malachite medication I cleaned up the scars.

PS: I am not afraid of handling fish: I was a fly-fishing guide in my youth; yet more accustomed to 20-pound sea-run trout in Tierra del Fuego, (but that's a different story)

 

[jlk]

Hopefully, you will have some luck with meds! Ideally, you want to find a decent broad spectrum antibiotic that can address gram positive and gram negative bacteria to cover all bases. Generally though, most (not all) fish infections favor gram negative bacteria though there are a few that do not or do not exactly fit in either category (making things more difficult).

So, from what the site you posted has, 'cillin' (pen, amox, etc) generally are the least effective for fish. If however, you have a a choice between a 'cillin' antibiotic or none at all, I would take my chances. A great broad spectrum antibiotic for fish is enrofloxacin. Cipro or cephlex are in the same class but not as effective. Tetracycline, oxytetracycline or minocycline are solid options as are antibiotics from the 'fura' family. Kanamycin is a strong gram negative antibiotic but it would need to be combined with a fura antibiotic to cover all bases. Metronidazole is better known as a worm/protozoa med but it has gram positive antibiotic properties and it a good med to have on hand anyway with goldfish as its very effective in treating digestive infections (which goldfish are prone to). It would be worth picking this up as well in the event a broad spectrum med does not seem to help. Erythromycin is strictly gram positive and only has a very limited scope it can treat and is best combined with minocycline to cover bases.

Enro, kana and metro are the three antibiotics I almost always have stocked in dealing with fancies aside from praziquantel (for treating flukes) but enro is almost impossible to purchase in the US. We can help with dosing schedule once you know what is accessible. Feel free to research anything suggested and ask any questions about this or any other meds you may find! I am keeping my fingers crossed for your little guy!

 

[Fred-Argentina]

Getting worse, but we'll fight tough!

. A great broad spectrum antibiotic for fish is enrofloxacin.
[...] but enro is almost impossible to purchase in the US. We can help with dosing schedule once you know what is accessible.

I have found in Google several dog/cat vets in the area, hopefully they can help during working-days. And dropped an email to a friend, CEO of largest (human) drug distributor in Argentins - he must be able to get me something through his relations! Bayer seems to have te branded product for enrofloxacin. I found eBay sellers, but in Turkey: will get here too late.! Yer, turkish or argentinian, they are all targeted to cats and dogs. I'd have to see how to apply to fish : dosage, means, etc. But that would be a this stage a welcome problem

SITUATION: Fish now over 24 hours in his own hospital tank, with sponge filter and extra bubbler for oxygen. Green Malachite treatment, as described earlier.
White spots appearing in head, lateral fins. Behaviour gone for worse: "sat" all day in a corner, head-down. breathing heavily. I will now take him out to clean with a cotton swab and green malachite, perhaps a fungicide, too.

QUESTION: I feel that Green Malachite is not helping much. I am tempted to change to any of these handier options (... Enro will come to the funeral at this pace):
1) Purple med (description in previous post and pictures)
2) new, "red" med, specific for fungus (as per manufacturers scant description) API: ... (will edit shortly)
3) go again with a 5-day Tetra LIFE GUARD broad treatment.

Need pics? Any thoughts?

 

[jlk]

You may have an easier time finding a different antibiotic other than enro (try some of the others I listed above). And, yes, Baytril is the branded name but it is available generically in pill/injectable form for cats and dogs. As I mentioned, if you have any type of antibiotic available to you, I would try something over nothing. API, Sentry/Mardel and Tetra all make fish products with antibiotics but this goes back to whether your country allows antibiotics legally for aquatic use. I am sorry to hear he is not feeling very well.

Lifeguard is a pretty useless product. The only 'approved' use is as a contact lens cleaner as it is a stabilized form of chlorine thus it has some disinfecting aspects but nothing that lives up to its grandiose claims. Malachite green obviously is not helping him at this point (reason for suggesting an antibiotic).

Of the other two products you have, is one methylene blue or is it gentian violet (both are different products)? I think the other product you mentioned was rivoral (?) but can you give me a specific brand for it?

 

[Fred-Argentina]

More on medication

Interesting to hear Tetra Lifeguard is only a vacuous claim. I suspected it couldn't be so good for so many things, and come in a tablet. Life's simply not that way. I wonder how many fish have died because if this "misrepresentation". Worth billions in court rulings... if only fish had.... less fishy attorney's!

Back to business, I'll send a a picture of the three medicines I have, just to clarify - and a brief API description below to "take stock". These+Tetra-Crap is all I found at LFS.

1) BLUE/PURPLE bottle & liquid. "Ick treatment" APIs:
a) Crystal Violet / Methyl violet / fuchsine - disinfectant
b) Methylene blue
c) Malachite Green

2) GREEN bottle and liquid. "general tonic" APIs:
a) Methylene Blue - disinfectant, fungicide, internal healing
b) Rivanol (a.k.a Acrinol, Ethacridine lactate, ethacridine monolactate monohydrate) - antiseptic
c) Malachite Green - parasiticide and antibacterial. Fungicide.

3) RED Bottle & liquid. "Fungus treatment" APIs:
a) Polyvinylpyrrolidone (PVP), also commonly called polyvidone or povidone. Its essentially a Binder, Yet, PVP added to iodine forms a complex called povidone-iodine that possesses disinfectant properties.
b)yellow "Metanilic Acid" - properties?
c) Colloidal Silver. ... alternative medicine, often with extensive "cure-all" claims, bla, bla.

sources: wikipedia mostly.

They are in spanish and its a local brand "Aquapet" - Without even a website, they are yet quite popular. And with what you told me above rg Tetra's "high-tech" crap LifeGuard, I am glad I got the "full line" of colour dyes (i.e. I got all that's available at my LFS, which happens to be the national rep/distributor of Tetra, Eheim, etc and a fish stock wholesaler of long tradition). P

Anyway, I'll try to spare some time tomorrow and find proper antibiotics somewhere - in between kinder concert rehearsals, primary photo sessions, car-dealer appointment and a full-time day-job with 3 small kids.

 

[Delapool]

Curious to on the lifeguard product?

It sounds not very highly rated at all JLK? Below was a query I had on the same product as not finding much on it.


http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/tetra-life-guard-worthwhile-323809.html

 

[Fred-Argentina]

Shame on Tetra

I always (since the 1970s, shush! about my age) regarded Tetra as a "great brand": German quality, technology and trustworthiness. But since they sold off half the business to a USA Fund,.... well, things are going as expected: mediocre quality targeted to a below-average user, - bringing the average down in a vicious circle of negative consumerism.... Can we sue them?

 

[jlk]

I always (since the 1970s, shush! about my age) regarded Tetra as a "great brand": German quality, technology and trustworthiness. But since they sold off half the business to a USA Fund,.... well, things are going as expected: mediocre quality targeted to a below-average user, - bringing the average down in a vicious circle of negative consumerism.... Can we sue them?

LOl! Unfortunately, I don't believe this is a viable option...