Chaos!

[syhko]

If you haven’t read my previous posts, I had a few guppies I moved to my loach tank. Well.. ever since then everything has been chaos. The guppies I got were sick so we had to return them, but now the loaches are acting weird.

One actually died overnight and the two are laying on their sides and such. I already tested for ammonia. Let me tell you, this tank has been cycled. Before we added the guppies the loaches were very active and happy. After we added them one even died. So we are going to surrender the loaches. I had a pleco, and I needed to get him out of that tank in case of an ammonia outbreak due to the loach dying. Like I said, I tested it but everything was fine!

I acclimated him to another tank that has been cycled and he died over night. He was with the sick guppies.. and then died in a new tank. Now I’m going to redo the whole entire tank and surrender the fish. I did water changes, I added ammo lock in case, etc. It all went south when I added the guppies. Is it possible the guppies gave sickness to the other fish?

Mind you I was not told the guppies were sick until days after I got them. They had already been in the tank with the loaches at this point. Everything went to chaos as soon as I added those guppies. It isn’t about the tank or water parameters either. I’m so convinced the guppies spread a disease.

I’m upset now because when I went back to Petco and told the lady about the death of a guppy she said that some of them were sick and if the fish keep dying she cannot normally give refunds. UMMM.. excuse me? You cannot give me a refund from your fish and lacking to tell me that your fish are sick. Now the pleco is dead and I am going to need to get a refund and she is going to refuse a refund. She tested my water and it was fine. I’m just aggravated at this point. I’m not going to these main chains again. My perfectly fine loaches are now acting weird ever since we added those guppies from Petco. And I got the loaches from a breeder. I got the pleco from Petco too.

What do I do? I know it’s a lot but everything went wrong. I am going to redo the tank and wash it thoroughly and let it cycle but everything happened so soon. Any ideas what this could have been? Do you agree with the guppy situation?

 

[Aiken Drum]

Its certainly possible that fish can be infected when you buy them, and if you introduce infected fish into an aquarium with other fish they could pass on that infection and kill them.

We dont have the same pet store chains here in UK as you do, so i cant comment on specific stores or their refund policy. Our chain pet stores are actually pretty good, as are independant fish stores. Its the independant pet stores that also sell a few fish that we have to look out for.

This is why quarantine should be considered. Its a risk/ reward thing. Is it worth the effort and cost of a quarantine tank to mitigate the risk of introducing infection into your tank? Only you can really decide that based on your personal circumstances.

If you dont quarantine, there are other measures you can take to mitigate the risk, such as buying fish from sources you trust. Making sure you don't buy fish from tanks that obviously contain dead, dying or sick fish. Is this the same guppy you posted about that was knowingly sick?

Nobody can say for sure whether these guppies infected your tank, but its a good possibility if you had no problems before and everything started going awry after these fish where introduced. But maybe something else got in the tank and its just a coincidence.

Have you tested parameters other than ammonia?

Take a read through the "unhealthy fish" sticky and give some more detail on your sick loaches. See if it brings up anything else that might explain whats going on, and giving some more detail should help in diagnosing and recommending treatment for your sick fish. Post a photo of the sick fish if there are visible symptoms, or post a link to a youtube video if its behavioural.

https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f17/before-posting-about-unhealthy-fish-read-this-32451.html

 

[syhko]

Its certainly possible that fish can be infected when you buy them, and if you introduce infected fish into an aquarium with other fish they could pass on that infection and kill them.

We dont have the same pet store chains here in UK as you do, so i cant comment on specific stores or their refund policy. Our chain pet stores are actually pretty good, as are independant fish stores. Its the independant pet stores that also sell a few fish that we have to look out for.

This is why quarantine should be considered. Its a risk/ reward thing. Is it worth the effort and cost of a quarantine tank to mitigate the risk of introducing infection into your tank? Only you can really decide that based on your personal circumstances.

If you dont quarantine, there are other measures you can take to mitigate the risk, such as buying fish from sources you trust. Making sure you don't buy fish from tanks that obviously contain dead, dying or sick fish. Is this the same guppy you posted about that was knowingly sick?

Nobody can say for sure whether these guppies infected your tank, but its a good possibility if you had no problems before and everything started going awry after these fish where introduced. But maybe something else got in the tank and its just a coincidence.

Have you tested parameters other than ammonia?

Take a read through the "unhealthy fish" sticky and give some more detail on your sick loaches. See if it brings up anything else that might explain whats going on, and giving some more detail should help in diagnosing and recommending treatment for your sick fish. Post a photo of the sick fish if there are visible symptoms, or post a link to a youtube video if its behavioural.

https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f17/before-posting-about-unhealthy-fish-read-this-32451.html

Petco and PetSmart are pretty much the main chain pet stores of the US generally, but they completely neglect their aquatics. I did test for nitrites, nitrates, and ammonia and everything seemed fine. We surrendered the loaches and we got a refund at a different location so we didn’t have to deal with the rude lady. It’s handled but it does just sound like the tank became unhealthy when the sick ones were added. I’m definitely considering quarantine tanks now. We are going to redo that 10 gallon and thoroughly wash it.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Andy Sager]

Petco and PetSmart are pretty much the main chain pet stores of the US generally, but they completely neglect their aquatics. I did test for nitrites, nitrates, and ammonia and everything seemed fine. We surrendered the loaches and we got a refund at a different location so we didn’t have to deal with the rude lady. It’s handled but it does just sound like the tank became unhealthy when the sick ones were added. I’m definitely considering quarantine tanks now. We are going to redo that 10 gallon and thoroughly wash it.

Thanks for the reply!

It's not 100% but there are too many coincidences to rule out contamination from the sick Guppies. I'd put cash money on that bet.

There are actually a few different chains in the US besides Petsmart and Petco. (Pets Supplies plus, Pet Supermarket, Petland etc) . Some of them are pretty good at taking care of their aquatic sections while others just suck at it. That said, I would quarantine anything from any of them.

The secret to success when quarantining is to not be in a rush. Bacterial and Fungal issues usually arise within the first week but there are external parasites with 70+ day lifecycles as well as internal issues that won't be apparent immediately. The idea of a quarantine tank is to set it up as a smaller replica of the tank the fish will eventually go in. The water parameters, lighting ( brightness and on/off timing) , feed, water change schedule, etc. should be the same for the two tanks. This helps get the fish used to a routine so that when you do place them in their forever tank, they will adapt quickly. Also, if an issue arises, depending on what it is, you may need to treat in a Hospital tank as some medicines will kill or suppress the bacteria bed. . A hospital tank is a basic bare receptacle that holds water that only needs to be set up and used as needed.

I know this sounds like a lot but sadly, in today's hobby, that is what it takes to have healthy main tanks and not suffer from surprises as you just went through.

 

[Colin_T]

Stop moving fish around. If a fish dies in a tank, do not move other fish out of that tank and into other tanks unless there is a poison in the water. Then you do big water changes to dilute the poison. If you suspect a disease and this is almost certainly a disease introduced by the new guppies, moving fish from that tank is simply moving the disease. It's like the pandemic virus, infected people were allowed to travel around the world before the World Health Organisation was informed of the virus, and people continue to travel around while infected with the virus. If you have a disease in an aquarium or in person, you isolate that population and treat it where it is. If you move infected fish to another tank, you spread the infection to the other tank.

Your water has been tested and is good so it is almost 100% a disease problem.

-----------------

Contact consumer protection and get them involved. The shop sold you sick fish and they knew the fish were sick when they sold them to you, at least that is what I understand from your comments. The shop has a duty of care to not sell animals that they know are sick (this includes fish) and they should replace any sick animal they sell to a customer if that animal dies. They should also have to reimburse the customer for any medications needed to treat the sick animal and for any other animals owned by the customer that were lost because of the disease.

-----------------

QUARANTINE
All new fish (and birds & animals) should be quarantined for at least 2 (preferably 4) weeks before being added to enclosures with other livestock. This means keeping new fish isolated from established display tanks so most diseases can be kept out of the display tank.

Fish like common livebearers (platies, swordtails, guppies, mollies) that come from fish farms are regularly infected with external bacteria and external protozoan infections. They also regularly have intestinal worms and gill flukes. Quarantining them for a month lets the fish develop symptoms (if they are going to) and then you can treat the fish in the quarantine tank. You can also treat the fish for intestinal worms and gill flukes while they are in quarantine, and this stops these diseases getting into your other tanks and causing problems like this.

If fish do develop diseases in quarantine, you start the 2-4 weeks quarantine period after the fish have all been successfully treated.

-----------------

BASIC FIRST AID FOR FISH
Test the water for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH.

Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge. This removes the biofilm on the glass and the biofilm will contain lots of harmful bacteria, fungus, protozoans and various other microscopic life forms.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week or until the problem is identified. The water changes and gravel cleaning will reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and provide a cleaner environment for the fish to recover in. It also removes a lot of the gunk and this means any medication can work on treating the fish instead of being wasted killing the pathogens in the gunk.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. However, if the filter is less than 6 weeks old, do not clean it. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use the media. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn. Cleaning the filter means less gunk and cleaner water with fewer pathogens so any medication (if needed) will work more effectively on the fish.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration to maximise the dissolved oxygen in the water.

Post clear pictures and maybe a short video of the fish so we can check them for diseases.

 

[syhko]

It's not 100% but there are too many coincidences to rule out contamination from the sick Guppies. I'd put cash money on that bet.

There are actually a few different chains in the US besides Petsmart and Petco. (Pets Supplies plus, Pet Supermarket, Petland etc) . Some of them are pretty good at taking care of their aquatic sections while others just suck at it. That said, I would quarantine anything from any of them.

The secret to success when quarantining is to not be in a rush. Bacterial and Fungal issues usually arise within the first week but there are external parasites with 70+ day lifecycles as well as internal issues that won't be apparent immediately. The idea of a quarantine tank is to set it up as a smaller replica of the tank the fish will eventually go in. The water parameters, lighting ( brightness and on/off timing) , feed, water change schedule, etc. should be the same for the two tanks. This helps get the fish used to a routine so that when you do place them in their forever tank, they will adapt quickly. Also, if an issue arises, depending on what it is, you may need to treat in a Hospital tank as some medicines will kill or suppress the bacteria bed. . A hospital tank is a basic bare receptacle that holds water that only needs to be set up and used as needed.

I know this sounds like a lot but sadly, in today's hobby, that is what it takes to have healthy main tanks and not suffer from surprises as you just went through.

Gotcha! Thanks!

 

[syhko]

Stop moving fish around. If a fish dies in a tank, do not move other fish out of that tank and into other tanks unless there is a poison in the water. Then you do big water changes to dilute the poison. If you suspect a disease and this is almost certainly a disease introduced by the new guppies, moving fish from that tank is simply moving the disease. It's like the pandemic virus, infected people were allowed to travel around the world before the World Health Organisation was informed of the virus, and people continue to travel around while infected with the virus. If you have a disease in an aquarium or in person, you isolate that population and treat it where it is. If you move infected fish to another tank, you spread the infection to the other tank.

Your water has been tested and is good so it is almost 100% a disease problem.

-----------------

Contact consumer protection and get them involved. The shop sold you sick fish and they knew the fish were sick when they sold them to you, at least that is what I understand from your comments. The shop has a duty of care to not sell animals that they know are sick (this includes fish) and they should replace any sick animal they sell to a customer if that animal dies. They should also have to reimburse the customer for any medications needed to treat the sick animal and for any other animals owned by the customer that were lost because of the disease.

-----------------

QUARANTINE
All new fish (and birds & animals) should be quarantined for at least 2 (preferably 4) weeks before being added to enclosures with other livestock. This means keeping new fish isolated from established display tanks so most diseases can be kept out of the display tank.

Fish like common livebearers (platies, swordtails, guppies, mollies) that come from fish farms are regularly infected with external bacteria and external protozoan infections. They also regularly have intestinal worms and gill flukes. Quarantining them for a month lets the fish develop symptoms (if they are going to) and then you can treat the fish in the quarantine tank. You can also treat the fish for intestinal worms and gill flukes while they are in quarantine, and this stops these diseases getting into your other tanks and causing problems like this.

If fish do develop diseases in quarantine, you start the 2-4 weeks quarantine period after the fish have all been successfully treated.

-----------------

BASIC FIRST AID FOR FISH
Test the water for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH.

Wipe the inside of the glass down with a clean fish sponge. This removes the biofilm on the glass and the biofilm will contain lots of harmful bacteria, fungus, protozoans and various other microscopic life forms.

Do a 75% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a week or until the problem is identified. The water changes and gravel cleaning will reduce the number of disease organisms in the water and provide a cleaner environment for the fish to recover in. It also removes a lot of the gunk and this means any medication can work on treating the fish instead of being wasted killing the pathogens in the gunk.
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it is added to the tank.

Clean the filter if it hasn't been done in the last 2 weeks. However, if the filter is less than 6 weeks old, do not clean it. Wash the filter materials/ media in a bucket of tank water and re-use the media. Tip the bucket of dirty water on the garden/ lawn. Cleaning the filter means less gunk and cleaner water with fewer pathogens so any medication (if needed) will work more effectively on the fish.

Increase surface turbulence/ aeration to maximise the dissolved oxygen in the water.

Post clear pictures and maybe a short video of the fish so we can check them for diseases.

You’re very much right Colin. Thank you! I am working on a quarantine tank now but this information helps as well!