Consensus on PH?

[SicklySweet]

After a bit of searching for something online to confirm what I was saying:

A drop is precisely the expression of the molecular forces of cohesion distributing evenly as the forces of surface tension throughout its body. Hence a drop from the end of a matchstick, which is a dropper with an infinitely small bore, is not substantially different from a drop of the same substance through a glass tube. Once the bore of the tube is large enough so that the forces of adhesion (capillary) do not restrain the liquid against gravity, then you are dealing with a hosepipe not a dropper. But drop size is remarkably constant within the dropper range from infinitely small to a couple of mm.

SicklySweet, look at it like this....droppers in general are clumsy pieces, unless you're dealing with laboratory equipment like a pipet (see: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~chemlab/techniques/pipet.html), there is no way a regular old dropper from your lfs wil be guaranteed to give you a precise single drop when you need it ....i've had times when I press the bottle a bit to hard and too many drops come out..and then i've got to start again...that's what we've come to expect from dropper based test kits.

I think what I was getting at was that it's too easy to mess up with the regular dropper....my personal choice would be to invest in something easier and more advanced (maybe an electronic one).

Zach.

Zach

No I agree if you're talking about maybe pressing too hard on the dropper and letting out too many drops or a stream of liquid instead of a drop, but when a drop falls is determined by its mass/volume. As soon as you squeeze out enough to reach the point where gravity takes over, the drop will be pulled down towards the ground (into the vial). So unless you're squeezing too hard, the drop size should stay the same.

 

[Patwa]

this is an interesting debate and to a mere novice enlightening, I tried to get the perfect water chemistry in my angel tank using proprietary products from my local lfs. These included water softeners ph down RO water and a multitude of other ideas given to me. This was done over a period of months and all I ended up with was a whole in my pocket.

yeah tell me about it!.....those pH up and down bottles are crazy....they never seem to work at all....just a waste of cash imo.

well i've figure out I have to put my test kit on ebay...it's barely been used, so i think i can get a good return on it...*fingers crossed* time to buy an electronic one I think!

as for lowering pH....adding more driftwood/bogwood would help to lower the pH....but if it is too low, add more limestone based rocks....but it seems you have pretty hard water already so ignore the latter!

Zach.

 

[Scottw68TN]

When adding any reagent drop-wise to a water sample, hold the dropper bottle vertically (straight up and down). Holding the bottle at an angle while adding may distort the drop size and lead to inaccurate results. Static electricity sometimes builds up around the dropper tip, reducing the drop size and resulting in a false high reading. To correct this problem, simply wipe around the dropper tip with a clean, damp cloth or paper towel to remove the static electricity.
For other stuff:
http://www.poolspa.com/publications/sin/stories/12steps.htm

 

[Scottw68TN]

Calibrated Medicine Droppers are often used to deliver small doses of liquid medication, 1 ml or less, to the patient. Precision and accuracy of dose from droppers can be very poor. Problems arise from the false assumption that a close relationship exists between a drop and the volume of any liquid. The size of a drop of any liquid will vary not only with differences in the construction and composition of the dropper, but also with the viscosity, surface tension, and density of the liquid. Personal factors also contribute to the problem. Two individuals dispensing the same liquid from identical droppers may produce drops of different sizes because of variations in the pressure, speed of dropping, and the angle at which the dropper is held.

In an effort so standardize the dropper, the United States Pharmacopoeia/National Formulary (USP/NF) has recognized an official medicine dropper which is designed to deliver 1 ml of water in 20 drops with an allowable 10% deviation (± 2 drops). This stipulation does not appreciable improve the problem.

Some commercially produced medications are packaged with a marked dropper which as has been calibrated with that preparation. In order to maximize accuracy of dosing of a compounded solution from a medicine dropper, the pharmacist must calibrate the dropper with the intended solution at the time of delivery.

from:
http://pharmlabs.unc.edu/measurements/text.htm

 

[BrianNY]

That is very definitive Scott. It reinforces what I've suspected. Those cheapy test kits suck.

 

[Scottw68TN]

Heres some more measures that will probably help people with meds and conditioners:

1 Drop = 1/72 tsp. = 0.065 milliliters
9.5 Drops = 2 Dashes = 1 Pinch = 1/8 tsp.
19 Drops = 4 Dashes = 2 Pinches = 1/4 tsp.
38 Drops = 8 Dashes = 4 Pinches = 1/2 tsp.
76 Drops = 16 Dashes = 8 Pinches = 1 tsp.

1/8 tsp. Talk about inaccuracy

 

[Patwa]

When adding any reagent drop-wise to a water sample, hold the dropper bottle vertically (straight up and down). Holding the bottle at an angle while adding may distort the drop size and lead to inaccurate results. Static electricity sometimes builds up around the dropper tip, reducing the drop size and resulting in a false high reading. To correct this problem, simply wipe around the dropper tip with a clean, damp cloth or paper towel to remove the static electricity.
For other stuff:
http://www.poolspa.com/publications/sin/stories/12steps.htm

thanks Scott....great info!...this totally clarifies what I was saying earlier about droppers not being able to guarantee a 'perfect' drop everytime.

Zach.

 

[Scottw68TN]

Sure but for the same person using it the same way it does stay rather steady. color matching is flawed by design but I feel confident my readings are steady when they indicate so. and ph measures are so far apart the amount in the drop may make little difference. 6.0 is 10 times more acidic than 7.0. I remain on the fence about the difference in drop sizes affect even though they can be different. To prove it. I want everyone to use twice the amount of water as usual and double the dose amount check the color THEN add 1 drop more and see if there is a difference!

 

[cmedalis]

My $0.02,
When I started setting up my tank, I wanted to know what kind of fish to get.
I hold to the idea of buying fish for the water, rather than making the water for the fish. I went out and got a Tetra Laborett multi-test kit. The pH test runs in 0.5 increments, and my water always looked in-between 7.5 and 8.0, and My crummy lighting only makes it harder to figure out which it is. So I got a different test, just to see if I was closer to 8.0 or 7.something; my new test reads high pH from 7.0 to 8.4 in 0.2 increments, and my water really is around 7. or 8.0. That is close enough for me.
With those numbers in hand, I trimmed down my list of prospective fishes, since I don't want to get fish that may be happier in the 6-something range. Now I suppose I could try acclimating the fish, but I think for a fish native to the Amazon region and it's acidic waters, my tap would just spell instant alkalosis
Personally, I'd like to get more accurate tests for Ammonia and Nitrate, so I can test my tap water more effectively, as I think there are high ammounts in there to begin with.

 

[BrianNY]

Well the logic makes sense cmedalis but unless you're doing a lot of water changes you're being overly cautious IMO. You can get your water to any safe PH range without too much effort.

 

[cmedalis]

Hmm, you are probably right, but, for me at least, manipulating the chemistry of the water I add would be more trouble than it's worth. Because I have limited space in my apartment, I have a very small tank (10gallon), and little changes in little tanks can mean big trouble. If I had a larger tank, I could probably be more willing and able to set a pH goal, and be consistant about it. In my current set up, even my small weekly water changes could wreak havok on my tank's chemistry.

 

[xander]

actually I am finding it difficult to get my pH down. I have KH around 12 to 14. I am going to try peat. I have a tone of driftwood in there but with the KH so high I don't think anything will happen. I may have to go and get some RO water.

 

[Orca]

The more I read about PH on this forum, the more perplexed I feel about it. There seems to be two main camps on the subject: one that says don’t try to mess with your PH and let your fish adapt, and the other that says try to get your PH to the level that your fish prefer or they’ll be stressed.

This situation probably wouldn’t bother me so much if I really knew what my PH was. I was at the point where I was testing every single day and still couldn’t make up my mind what it was because (like everyone seems to agree) the test kits suck. I’ve done 3 different tests on my water for PH: a low range drip test, a high range drip test, and a quick-dip strip test. From the multiple times that done this, I’ve come to the conclusion that my PH is between 7.2 and 8.6. Seriously! These tests drive me bonkers!!

I’m pretty sure the PH isn’t moving. It’s just that I can’t distinguish between the different shades of blue for the drip tests, or the different shades of orange for the strip tests. (The other water tests don’t seem to be as difficult to read for some reason.)

I’ve ordered one of those Milwaukee Smart PH testers. Hopefully it will arrive today and I’ll finally know for sure. But I’m almost afraid to find out!

Suppose my PH really is at 8.6. Should I freak-out because my Neon Tetras are going to suffer a slow and stressful death from too high a PH? Or should I just worry about keeping it there because they are already used to it and changing it will do more harm than good?

I’m not very knowledgeable about fish behavior, but they seem alright to me. They swim actively around the tank. They chase each other around. They have good color. And they devour food like it was their last meal. But I hate to think they might be suffering.

 

[TankGirl]

Suppose my PH really is at 8.6. Should I freak-out because my Neon Tetras are going to suffer a slow and stressful death from too high a PH? Or should I just worry about keeping it there because they are already used to it and changing it will do more harm than good?

This is a fascinating debate! I don't think freaking out is in order, but suppose it is high pH water. If your neons seem fine, then you will be one of those people who post that they had no trouble keeping neons at high pH when others suggest it is impossible. If they seem unhappy, decide if you want to inject CO2 and lower the pH (I hate using bottles of chemicals to do this type of thing) or take them back to the store and select African cichlids or livebearers. It will help you make fishkeeping decisions in the future, and help you diagnose issues that might arise, along with the other water parameters that are necessary to know.

My water is medium hard and when I had a gang of angels I could not get their eggs to hatch, and I am sure the pH was the reason, all other things being in proper order. Now I have only one angel and since going plant crazy and injecting CO2, my pH is neutral or slightly below, and I have to decide how I want to stock the tank now. I DO think that African cichlids have much better color and their behavior is more "natural" with high pH, but they do fine in the lower pH range. If you want that vibrant color and you want spawning, add buffering rock to the tank, and crushed coral in the filter.

I suppose pH can be extremely important, but does not always have to be anything to lose sleep over. Depends upon what you want from your tank.

 

[Orca]

Well, the PH tester arrived, and according to it, my PH is 8.1.

Assuming that this is an accurate reading, then the high range drip PH test was off by about .5 on the high side, the low range drip test was ineffective because I was out of its range, and the Quick-Dip strips weren't even close (they showed my PH was 7.2!).

I think I'll add some peat to my filter and see if that has any effect. I have no idea how much to add for a 6 gallon tank, so I'll start with a teaspoon and go from there.

 

[BrianNY]

Orca I've learned a lot since I started this thread. It is a fascinating debate but the one thing most agree on is that it's the swings in PH which are really stressful to fish.

The PH of aquarium water can change rapidy depending on the conditions in your tank. So in order to properly understand what's happening you need to find out what PH your tap water is, and just as important, the KH.

There is a direct relationship between KH, CO2 (which occurs naturally in our water supply), and PH stability. The PH out of my tap is 7.0, the KH is under 2. Now because the KH is so low, as the CO2 in my water gasses out the PH rises. It's been as high as 8.1. As the tank ages, all of that good bacteria and all of the fish producing waste act to reverse that process. I've seen my PH go as low as 6.

If your tap water is reading high on both PH and KH, then using peat in your filter is probably a good idea. If not, then you need to control the KH before you start messing with peat. JMO

 

[TankGirl]

Absolutely right, Brian! The aging tank becomes more acidic naturally, and I think many people are way too concerned about pH and do not consider KH at all. If you listen at the LFS to conversations between employees and customers, they will push pH test kits, along with ammonia and nitrite, but not even mention KH.

Kudos to you for starting this cool thread!

 

[tkos]

Just thought I would drop into this thread say hi! Anyways I was reading another forum (oh the shame) and there was an interesting discussion on a similar topic. I would summerize but I don't want to take credit for what this other member was talking about so I will post a link to it if anyone wants to read it. It concerns that fact taht ph isn't the main factor so much as the total dissolved solids, which the ph is a product of. Sorry if posting a link to another forum is a bad thing.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22364

 

[TankGirl]

I think it is fine to do that (hope so, I've done it ) but this is a complex issue and I think it is so important for us to understand about the total dissolved solids factor.

 

[BrianNY]

Thanks for the kudos TankGirl. And Tkos, it would be wrong to suppress meaningful info, that's why we're here. To share experiences and learn.. So thanks for link My 400th post.