Constantly Cycling?????

[becrac16]

This all began when I woke up this morning to find my largest sterbai cory dead.

I just checked the ammonia levels and it is at .25, maybe more. What the heck?? I just went through this 2 weeks ago! I didn't change any water, just let itself cycle, which it did in a few days.

What is going on? Within the 2 weeks (after the water parameters were good) I added a few fish. But my feeding is only enough for everyone, so I don't understand where this ammonia is coming from!!!!

AARRG!!!

 

[mommytron]

how often do you do PWC's? do you clean the filter media/cartridges or do you replace them? if you are replacing the cartridge/media, you could be causing mini cycles because all of your good bacteria lives in the filter.

how many is a "few" fish? what size tank & filters do you have? what is your current stock?

 

[OhNeil1969]

I am a little confused by your post. What did you go through 2 weeks ago? And what did you do since then other than no water changes? Was it a fishless cycling or did you have a spike of ammonia in an established tank? You say you added a few fish, how many? I would love to help if I can, but I need more info.

 

[becrac16]

Sorry, I have a 55 gal that has been set up for around 5 months. It currently has 6 rummynose tetras, 3 glass catfish, 2 sterbai cory, 1 baby (about the size of a quarter) angelfish, 1 maybe 2 inch bristlenose pleco, 1 upside-down catfish, and 1 two inch striped raphael catfish. Definitely not a huge bioload!

When I do PWC I don't change out the filter, and the last time this mini-cycle happened (2 weeks ago) I had vaccuumed the gravel which I thought may have been the perp.

I do water changes about every 2 weeks, doing maybe 30-40%.

Oh, also I have a aqueon quiet flow 55 filter.

 

[OhNeil1969]

What was your bioload before you added the fish? It's possible you added too many at one time leading to your ammonia spike. The bacteria colony present could not keep up with the drastic increase of ammonia caused by a large increase to your bioload. You also mention that you are only doing water changes every 2 weeks. Are you testing the water in between changes? You may need to increase the frequency of changes. Your bioload my not be too much for your tank but it may be too much for your water change schedule.

 

[becrac16]

I added the raphael catfish and angelfish about 3 weeks ago, and then a week later the glass and upsidedown catfish.

I haven't been testing the water, how often should i do that?

 

[Greenmaster]

When you are having issues or adding fish you should do it almost every day... and as things are good you can start to space out the testing. When things are in good order, a test once a week I would say should be minimum.

 

[OhNeil1969]

Greenmaster hit it right on the head. If you know you have a water quality issue I recommend testing daily until you see a least a couple of days of stability. After that you can test weekly. I'm so sensitive though that even if I see one of my fish act slightly strange I'll perform at least an ammonia test just to make sure everything's OK. The same goes for adding fish. As I mentioned before adding fish can definitely change your water parameters. I find it to be good insurance that my new tank mates will transition successfully.

I just reread your earlier posts and remembered that you said you vacuumed your gravel. Was that a light vacuum or did you dig into the substrate. It's my opinion that overaggressive vacuuming can negatively disturb you bacteria colony since that's one of the places they live. The waste that rests on the TOP of the gravel are the potential cause of an ammonia spike, not the gravel itself.

 

[mommytron]

you may want to think about getting a bigger (or second) filter. a good rule of thumb is to take what the filter says it can handle (e.g. 55 gallons) and divide that in half (so your 55g filter is good for a 27g tank). i good idea would be to get a second one identical to what you have now, and place it on the opposite end of the tank. this will double your filtration (which it shoould be at 110g probably anyway) and make sure all of the water is being filtered evenly (by having one on each end). this will probably help maintain your ammonia levels better, especially as your fish grow (your striped raphael will get to 8" or more and your angel can get quite large as well.)

 

[becrac16]

When I vaccuum gravel I definitely get in there with it, until I see brown junk coming out. That's no good?

And I have thought about getting another filter but I really don't have the money for it. This tank is supposed to be in the low price range (i don't have any lights-at least) and I just can't afford to spend 60 bucks on a new filter. I have an old one in my garage but the spinner thing doesn't seem to fit on right and makes a bunch of noise.

I guess I'm just having a hard time understanding why these tiny fish and small bioload would make that much ammonia. If I am supposed to be doing PWC every week to keep up with them now, that means that I will have to be doing PWC like 3 times a week to keep up with them when they get bigger. That just doesn't seem right.

 

[mommytron]

if there is a lot of brown stuff being stirred up during your water changes it could be a problem. if there is a lot of stuff built up in the substrate and you're stirring it all up, it could absolutely be causing spikes in the ammonia. try not to be so vigorous, and try to keep up on the cleaning. if you do one 50% PWC a week, vacuuming half of the gravel each time (alternating between which half) you shouldn't have these kinds of problems anymore.

also, if your filtration was adequate you would not have to do quite as much maintenance to keep water quality optimum.

if you don't think you can afford to keep your fish in an environment that's suitable for them, it might be a good idea to take some back or find them new homes. that's why it's a good idea to research before you buy pets, to make sure you can handle/afford the responsibility.

 

[becrac16]

if you don't think you can afford to keep your fish in an environment that's suitable for them, it might be a good idea to take some back or find them new homes. that's why it's a good idea to research before you buy pets, to make sure you can handle/afford the responsibility.

Whoa there. There was no need for that. Obviously I'm trying to fix my issues by coming on here and asking for advice. Point being, just because I have questions trying to make mathematical sense of what is going on in my tank doesn't mean I won't take action. It is not imperative that I need another filter.

What I am trying to say is that it doesn't make mathematical sense that I would need to do the same amount of water changes now versus when all the fish are at their largest. It doesn't mean I won't do it. It just means that I don't know why that is.

As for the brown stuff in the substrate, I understand how stirring it up may affect the water quality, but doesn't it make more sense to get it out instead of letting it sit?

 

[mommytron]

you would think that it would make more sense just to get it all out. the problem is there is so much stuff because it has been building up for a long period of time. so just letting it all come loose and fly around is giving your bacteria colony WAY too much ammonia at once to handle, so instead of the ammonia being converted it just sits there, poisoning your fish, until your bacteria have had enough time to catch up.

and trying to figure out the mess in your tank mathamatically will probably just give you a head ache lol. it's more like trial and error to figure out what maintenance schedule works best for you.

for now, just try to get your water parameters stabilized, then slowly work on getting your tank spic & span. after that, you can figure out what kind of maintenance schedule you should stick to.

 

[OhNeil1969]

OK Berac, just take a moment and breathe. We're not trying to make things difficult for you; we're just trying to help. The main issue I see is a good understanding of the nitrogen cycle that tanks go through and the purpose behind it. There are many posts on this site that describe in detail the specifics of the nitrogen cycle and the various means by which you can achieve it in your tank. The main points that you need to understand are these:
1) when you feed your fish they create waste just like you and me:
2) as that waste starts to break down in your tank it creates ammonia:
3) ammonia as you know is toxic to your fish, therefore you need a system to deal with it;
4) water changes help with diluting your ammonia concentration but it is not the primary way to deal with ammonia (my opinion);
5) beneficial bacteria is the first line of defense against ammonia, nitrites and nitrates (someone correct me if I am wrong about the last one);
6) the amount of bacteria present in your tank determines how much ammonia you can handle;
7) Now the tricky part: the amount of ammonia present determines how much bacteria is present.
Without ammonia your bacteria will die off because they will have nothing to eat. There is a balancing act constantly going in your tank with respect to ammonia and bacteria. Your bacteria colony will only grow to the level that the ammonia present can support. Remember that ammonia is created by your bioload. As your fish grow and produce more waste (because you're feeding more to match their size) your bacteria colony will grow in response to the increase. The process is not instantaneous. You need to allow your bacteria the chance to catch up. That's why it's recommended that you don't add a lot of fish to your tank at one time. The large, almost immediate increase of waste will create ammonia faster than your bacteria can handle. That's why you will get an ammonia spike. Given time your bacteria colony will grow in response to the added ammonia, but as I said it will take time. That's where the danger comes in. Anytime your ammonia levels rise you create a toxic environment for your fish. Some fish are able to withstand the high ammonia levels. Others are more susceptible; those fish are more likely to die in that environment. Even a normally hardy fish that has been compromised in some way through stress will have a harder time of surviving that ammonia spike. Your PWC's will help your bacteria deal with that spike. And that's why you will perform more changes now than you will with a stable and established tank. I recommend that you start performing regular water TESTS for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Record and watch the pattern. There will come a time when you will have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrItes and less than 20 ppm nitrAtes. That's the sign of a fully cycled tank. At that point you can expect to make weekly water changes and in some cases even fewer (my tank can go 2 weeks before things start to get critical). As I said before the key is understanding the nitrogen cycle and how it affects your fish. Search some of the posts in this site for more info on what it is and how to make it happen in your tank. It'll go a long way in helping you with your ammonia problem. Remember, we're here to help not judge. If you like, you can PM with any questions you may have. If I don't have the answer I'll do my best to put you on the right track to finding what you need.

 

[mandy2936]

Hello,
I just wanted to say: Wow, what a great answer by OhNeil! I would definitely take his advice, the information he provided was spot on and explains the issues you are having very well.
+1!!!!



Sent from my iPod touch using Aquarium

 

[TheCrazyFishLady]

I'm agreeing with Mandy, great job at explaining that out!
+1!!

 

[Greenmaster]

The suggestion to only vacuum out part of the gravel at a time is also a good one.

Fist:
When you vacuum the gravel you often kick up a fair amount of debris, you kick up even more when you are rushing trying to get all of the gravel before the water gets to the point where you want to stop removing it. So doing a thorough cleaning of a quarter or half gets more debris out of the gravel and less into the water column. Just alternate the section every time you vacuum.

Second:
Part 1:
There is bacteria on all of the rocks both the ones on the top and the ones on the bottom. But the oxygen concentrations decrease as you go deeper into the gravel. There are many different types of bacteria and they consume and process things differently. The bacteria that changes ammonium and ammonia, like high oxygen concentration because the oxygen is required for the conversion process. The bacteria can also survive in lower oxygen concentrations but they don't process it as fast. The bacteria that changes Nitrate into Nitrogen needs an oxygen free or extremely low oxygen content to thrive.

Part 2:
When you vacuum your gravel you are redistributing the rocks and re-arranging the location of the bacteria. Some of your bacteria that has been thriving on the surface in a high oxygen environment will end up at the bottom where it is difficult for them to survive. You will have lots of bacteria starving for oxygen and then dieing and decomposing (releasing ammonia) when you do the whole tank a lot of your bacteria gets disturbed and doesn't process as well.

In conclusion:
Some tanks have enough other surface area for bacteria that when they vacuum they don't notice the spike because the bacteria can multiply and thrive on the other surfaces (like a second filter, high oxygen and often lots of surface area). In tanks that are a little low on other surface area you are looking at issues if you disturb the entire bacteria colony at once at the same time as releasing stored debris into the water column to decompose (decomposition is often also aided by oxygen thriving bacteria... floating in the water column makes for much faster decomposition), you are likely to get an ammonia spike.

Moral of the story:
If you don't want to get more surface area for your tank (second filter or ceramic bio balls to put in the back of the filter you already have), then I suggest only vacuuming out part of your tank at a time making sure to do a thorough cleaning of that section. Take your time and try not to let too much debris float into the tank.

I am by no means an aquarium expert but I understand a thing or two about the chemical processes involved in your situation.

 

[becrac16]

Wow, thanks for that! So much info that I never got, I love it. I do always only do 1/2 of the tank when I vacuum, I always just rationalized it as me being lazy but it's good to know that it helps! And the part about the good bacteria living in the deep parts of the substrate is great too. Would it help my situation if I maybe got some more gravel so that the gravel all has a couple inches in depth? Mine can be thin in places, I always thought that it was more of an aesthetic thing instead of a bacteria survival thing

I checked the ammonia levels yesterday and they're at 0. Unfortunately, I don't have a nitrite test and there wasn't any at petco so I'm not exactly sure where my tank is at in the cycling process.

Thanks again for the info. It just reminds me that there is A LOT for me to still learn about aquariums

 

[mommytron]

if you are worried about not having enough space for a large enough colony of bacteria, you may want to think about your filter instead of the gravel. on one hand, adding more gravel won't hurt, and will indeed give bacteria more room to grow, but the majority of your bacteria will be in your filter media. consider putting the ceramic bio-balls in your filter as greenmaster mentioned. or if you want to go an even cheaper route, you can get some polyester filter fiber and stuff it in with your media or cartridge. my filters use the cartridges, and i stuff them with extra filter fiber. the extra fiber gives more room for bacteria and also helps with the tannins of my driftwood a little. i also like to have the extra filter fiber in there for when it comes time to replace the cartridge or seed another tank. i can just reach in the filter cartridge and pull out some or all of the seeded filter fiber and put it in a new cartridge.

also, if you only have the ammonia test kit and not the nitrite or nitrate ones yet, you may be better off just buying the entire API FW Master test kit. you can get it for ~$20 at walmart or fosterandsmithaquatics.com (if you are in the US). buying the test kits separately usually adds up to twice the price of the whole kit.

also, sorry for offending you before. i didn't mean to come off so harsh. but far too often in the hobby, people jump into and don't realize the labor expense of having aquariums, and it's the fish who have to suffer. glad to see you are willing to take appropriate action

 

[OhNeil1969]

Hey Berac;
Glad to see that we could be of some help. I personally think adding more gravel will be a good addition. I've got close to 3" (if not more) of substrate in my tank. On occasions when I've had to remove my filter media while adding medicine to the tank I've found that the colony present in the other areas of my tank are sufficient to prevent any changes in my water parameters. While I wouldn't recommend it, in theory I could run my tank full time without filter media (DISCLAIMER: just saying that for illustrative purposes! Don't want anyone to think that's something I would advocate!) As was mentioned before, a deep substrate gives the various types of bacteria needed for a healthy tank the right environment they need to thrive. Also a second filter is always a good idea. You don't mention what kind of filter you're using but one with a biowheel helps to further increase the area that your bacteria live. In fact, if your are going to use only 1 filter I would recommend that at the very least if have a biowheel. There are other types, like canister filters, but they are usually more expensive from what I've seen. I currently use 2 filters with my tank; the cheap TOPFIN Power30 that came with the tank and a Marineland Penguin 200 (with biowheel). You can never, in my opinion, have too much filtration. It could also help if you do have a crowded tank (just for info, not saying you have a crowding problem). When it comes to bacteria and filtration I always want to err on the side of excess. It's one of those areas where more is always better.