Cycle Q - New tank

[Spragga]

Hi All,
New member here, i had fish all my life but its been many years since i kept so i decided to start an African cichlid tank for my boys.
Seeking some advise on my new 110g tank cycle. i have a timeline of 2 weeks before fish arrive so I bought a turbo start live bacteria from a local shop, i told him i've been running it for about 6 days now with no water treatment and he said the chlorine should have evaporated by now and i should be good to just pour it in. Later that evening i read the bottle and it said chlorine and chloramine should be treated before application. Then i read on the internet that chloramine does not ever evaporate and the only way to remove it to treat.
So...im stressing this all night thinking what if i creep up on my 2 weeks and my tank cycle was killed off cause of the chloramine and i have a tank thats not ready. I made the decision to assume the chloramine killed my live bacteria and the next day started a Seachem Prime and Stability 7 day cycle. Prime treats the chlorine/chloramine/ammonia/nitrate/nitrite and stability builds the bacteria. Its day 4 now and its a slight milky tint to it, i checked my parameters just now and everything is good, PH is a tiny bit low but good to go.
I have a good amount of money in peacocks coming in and i dont want to make any mistakes when they arrive soooo...what you guys thinking? Am i over thinking things? Did i just mess things up if the live bacteria didnt die off and then starting the seachem cycle?

Thanks in advance for your time!

 

[Aiken Drum]

My opinion is that you always treat tap water with water conditioner rather than relying on letting water stand to remove chlorine. There are other things a water conditioner does.

Do you know whether your water is chlorine or chloramine treated? Ask your water company or do an ammonia test. Chloramine will show as ammonia with an ammonia test.

If your plan is to have the tank cycled before getting fish, this typically takes 6 to 8 weeks, and requires dosing ammonia. Just adding prime and stability will not cycle a tank despite what it says on the bottle. At best it will speed up a fishless cycle from several months to several weeks. More often products like stability do absolutely nothing. Without ammonia to feed the beneficial bacteria it wont establish, and it takes 6 to 8 weeks of ammonia dosing to establish and grow enough bacteria. I also think that of all the bottled bacteria products stability is probably the worst of the lot.

If your fish are arriving in a week, you dont have time to do a fishless cycle. I would continue with what you are doing because it might develop a small amount of cycle, but its very unlikely you will have developed enough beneficial bacteria to say you are cycled. I suppose your only option is to then do a fish in cycle when they arrive. Its safer to do a fish in cycle starting with low bioload, but it doesnt sound like that will be your case, so a fish in cycle will be risky for the fish. Do you know how to do a fish in cycle?

Make sure you have a good test kit on hand before the fish arrive and be prepared for regular (maybe daily) water changes for several weeks

 

[Spragga]

Hey thanks for the reply!
Here's the thing i forgot to mention, i was intending to do a full 6-8 week cycle, so i had 4 mollies in there for 4 days prior to starting the bottle cycle so there is an ammonia source.

Your opinion on seachem is a real bummer to me, has me worried now. I follow kaveman aquatics on youtube and he swears by it so i took his advise. What should i look out for?

As for as a fish in cycle, i am not familiar with it. At what point do i know i need to resort to that? When i'm not producing nitrate?


Lastly, lets says i dont have chloramine and the majority of the chlorine evaporated out during the 4 days prior to adding the live bacteria and the bacteria didn't die. Am i over killing the bacteria production here by doing the Stability at the same time?
Thanks!

 

[Aiken Drum]

Are the mollys in the tank now? 4 mollys in a 110g tank would never produce enough ammonia to grow enough beneficial bacteria to support a large, fully stocked aquarium. All it will grow is enough bacteria to support 4 mollys.

My opinion on stability is just an opinion. Ive never even used it. But of all the products out there "in my opinion" i see more issues with stability than any other similar products. Take a look at all the affiliate links on that kaveman channels videos description and ask yourself why he makes the recommendations he does. He gets paid.

If you want a recommendation on similar products, Dr Tims One and Only or Tetra Safestart. Dr Tim Hovanec was the first person to identify the bacteria responsible for the cycle and developed the first such product (tetra safestart). His own product One and Only is an advancement on TSS. Im not being paid to make recommendations. I actually think all these products are mostly snakeoil, but i have had some success with one and only. Other people will recommend quickstart or safestart or stability or some other product. I have no reason to doubt that kaveman has had success using stability. The good thing about forums is you can be fairly sure that people are making recommendations from first hand experience and you can get a broader spectrum of reviews.

As to when to resort to a fish in cycle, you have to cycle your tank one way or another. You dont have time to do a fishless cycle so you need to start a fish in cycle as soon as you add fish. Ill post a fish in cycle process in the next post.

Chlorine should offgas in a day or so. Adding stability before your fish arrive won't hurt anything, you may get some benefit. But without an ammonia source it will die off eventually.

 

[Aiken Drum]

To cycle a tank you need to grow denitrifying bacteria to consume ammonia and nitrite that your tank produces. The bacteria needs an ammonia source to grow colonies sufficient in size to consume all the ammonia and resultant nitrite and turn it into nitrate which typically you remove through your regular water changes.

A fish in cycle uses fish waste as an ammonia source and regular water changes are undertaken to ensure that water parameters are maintained at relatively non toxic levels.

Set up your tank. Make sure everything is running smoothly. Make sure you have used a water conditioner product with any tap water you have put in your tank. Seachem Prime is a water conditioner that will also detoxify some ammonia for a day or two, so is a good choice for a water conditioner while cycling a tank with fish.

You should have a test kit. Preferably a liquid test kit. It should test for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.

In ideal circumstances you should be starting a fishless cycle with a low bioload (number of fish). 1 small fish per 10 gallons/40 litres is a good number of fish, but this can be tweaked a little for fish that are social and don’t do well on their own. Ideally a hardy type of fish. You may have fully stocked (or overstocked) your tank before you knew about cycling. In these circumstances, if its not possible to return fish, you will have to make the best of it.

If you haven’t already done so, add your fish. Acclimate them to the water in your tank before doing so.

Feed lightly to start with. Daily as much as is eaten in 2 minutes, or as much as it eaten in 3 minutes every 2 days. You can increase to full feedings if you are confident your parameters aren’t getting too elevated too quickly and water changes don’t become a daily thing.

Start to regularly test the water for ammonia and nitrite. At least daily. Depending on your bioload you could start to see ammonia quite quickly. Nitrite will likely take a little longer to appear.

Your target should be to keep ammonia + nitrite combined no higher than 0.5ppm by changing water whenever your water parameters exceed this target. 0.5ppm combined is a level of waste that is sufficient for your cycle to establish but relatively safe for your fish.

If you see 0.5ppm ammonia and 0.0ppm nitrite (0.5ppm combined) then leave things be. If you see 0.5ppm ammonia and 0.25ppm nitrite (0.75ppm combined) then change 1/3 of the water. If you see 0.25ppm ammonia and 0.75ppm nitrite (1.0ppm combined) then change 1/2 the water. If water parameters get worse than these levels it may require multiple daily 50% water changes to maintain safe water conditions. This is more likely to happen with a fully stocked tank.

Remember to add water conditioner whenever you put tap water in the tank.

Over time the frequency of water changes and amount you need to change to maintain your ammonia + nitrite combined target will reduce. You can also start testing for nitrate and should see this rising. If you are finding the ammonia and nitrite in your tests are consistently low, and you aren’t already fully stocked, you can add a few more fish. It may take a few weeks to get to this point.

Once you add a few more fish, continue to regularly test the water and continue to change water if you exceed the 0.5ppm combined ammonia + nitrite target. With added bioload the frequency of water changes and amount you need to change may increase again until your cycle has caught up. Again once you are consistently seeing low ammonia and nitrite you can add some more fish. Rinse and repeat with testing, water changes, and adding fish when safe to do so until you are fully stocked.

You can then cut back on water changes to control nitrate only. Typically you want to keep nitrate no higher than 40ppm, but I would recommend changing some water every 2 weeks even if your water test says you don’t need to.

A fish in cycle from an empty tank to fully stocked can take several months.

A good way to speed up this process would be to put a small amount of filter media from an established filter into your filter, or get a sponge from an established filter and squeeze it into your tank water. Perhaps you have a friend who keeps fish who could let you have some? This will seed your filter with the bacteria you are trying to grow and speed up the process.

Another option is bottled bacteria like Dr Tims One + Only or Tetra Safestart. These products wont instantly cycle a tank as they claim but in a similar manner to adding established filter media they can seed your filter with the bacteria you are trying to grow to establish your cycle. These products are hit and miss as to whether they work at all, but are an option if established filter media isnt obtainable and may speed up the process from several months to several weeks.

 

[Spragga]

Thanks Aiken Drume, im really glad i have some sort of communication with someone experienced as i dont have that in my circle of friends.


Excellent info, i dont want to give up on what i started just yet im hoping i still have a chance...my local fish shop suggested 4 mollies so i followed suit. Should i supplement it with some bottled ammonia? I've also been slightly over feeding them with 3 feeds a day and just topping up water no water change yet.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Dont dose ammonia with fish in the tank. What you are doing with the mollys is starting the fish in cycle. The idea with a fish in cycle is to minimise ammonia not artificially raise it. Doing so will be to the detriment of the fish. Even though the mollies arent your ultimate goal of what you want in the tank, they are in your care and you should be doing your best to give them a safe environment to live in for as long as you have them?

What are your plans for these mollies when you get your cichlids?

Those 4 mollies will be producing very little ammonia relative to the size of the tank. You should be doing water changes as needed to keep ammonia + nitrite combined below 0.5ppm as per my fishless cycle guide. With such low bioload though you probably arent at a level to need a water change yet. Do you know your water parameters?

 

[Spragga]

Yes i checked my parameters a few times, including just now, i used a test strip but i took your advice and my wife is grabbing me an API master kit after work. The test strips show nitrate and nitrite are at 0, alkalinity and PH are a little low, but i have some cichlid sand coming in on Sunday.

I was going to take the mollies to a LFS once the cichlids arrived, but the boys have grown to like them and since they survive in water parameters similar to peacocks i was reading about them living together once they arrive, i read some mixed reviews of how this will pan out but some where it was just fine. They will be with 11 male peacocks, also considering the temperament of peacocks, im not sure to give back to the store or keep together.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Your strips dont measure ammonia. As a precaution i would do a small water change every 2 to 3 days until you are able to test for ammonia. 4 small fish in such a large tank, the risk is low though. 0 nitrate basically shows that you have no cycle or the bioload is so low that you cant detect it. Without ammonia test its impossible to say.

Not sure about whether mollies and peacocks are compatible. Im not a cichlid person. Maybe a new thread specifically asking this would get some relevant cichlid experience. In reality every fishes temperament is unique and the only way to find out for your individual fish is to try it. Mixed reviews would suggest it works in some tanks and not in others.

Maybe a little molly tank for the kids is needed?

 

[Spragga]

I checked yesterday and just now again for ammonia and i am at 0. Let me let the 'cycle' run and by day 8 when its done and i dont start seeing any signs of a cycle happening i'll come back for an update. In the mean time i'll continue to check water parameters a few times a day.



This one tank is keeping me busy for now lol, i think i'll end up sending the mollies back to the store.

 

[ColdKoi]

I wouldn’t hover over the tank checking it several times a day. Once is more than enough, the ammonia isn’t going to suddenly spike in an hour. I did a fish-in on my 75g, with 12 barbs, 4 Cory, 12 danio and a red tail shark (all juveniles) it wasn’t until day 6 I was seeing a measurable amount of ammonia on the api liquid test. You’ve got more water and a lot less ammonia source than I had.

If your fish are coming in a couple weeks you’ll definitely be doing a fish-in cycle unless you can get your hands on some established filter media. Unfortunately, No magic potion is going to cycle it that fast,

Personally I don’t see why everyone bothers trying to do a fishless cycle. If you’ve got a couple minutes a day to monitor the water quality and do a small water change every few days, just seems so much easier than staring at an empty tank for 8 weeks hoping it cycles!

 

[gilpi]

I have to agree with all the advice above, you'll be doing a "fish in cycle", two weeks is not enough to cycle a tank, ColdKoi summed it up in just a few words and Aiken Drum is always on point. These are experienced guys. Cycling a tank sounds tricky and it could be, in forty plus years of fish keeping and dozens of tanks, I've never done a "fishless" cycle. Also There is a misconception about bacteria in a bottle doing wonders and the need to be a chemist in order to check your water parameters and so forth, patience is the key here.

Unless I missed it, you didn't say how many fish you'll be getting and also (as already mentioned) if you can find a piece of filter media from an already established tank, you will speed up the cycling.

 

[ColdKoi]

If you can get some media out of a cycled tanks filter you’d be golden. It’s quite literally instant cycle if you’ve got enough of the filter media, but even a small amount is going to be greatly beneficial

I run an aquaclear 75 hob on my 29g comet tank (because dirty goldfish lol). Being a filter sized for a 75g tank the sponge size was sufficient to basically cycle my 407 canister that I run on the 75g tank. After I started to see some ammonia on the 75g tanks fish-in cycle, I had enough faith in what was established in my comet tank that I took the sponge from that and put it into my 407 canister. Next day ammonia was untestable as were nitrites and they’ve remained 0 since.

That almost took all the fun out of it LOL

Not to mention the filter on the 29g comet tank never skipped a beat. It has enough bio media and the inlet sponge filter that the levels never came up in that tank either