Cycling a tank - is it necessary

[sixtyfou]

I like chemistry. I have all kinds of buckets, tools, and test tubes. I do hydro gardening. I read all that stuff and said, "Nope, I'm just going to throw a couple of Danios in there with a plant, and hope it doesn't die."

They're doing fine.

 

[GodFan]

Ok this thread is interssting but I am confused on a few things. First off why is fishless complicated? You add amm you test often when you can eat desired amount of amm in 24 hours and have nothing but trates your done. I dont do it because I am not patiant enough to have an empty tank that long. Plus I dont test my water hardly ever and then its with strips.
Fish in isnt hard in my experience either. Add a couple fish make sure water stays clean once tank is adjusted add more fish.
However if you already have tanks you should do niether and just seed.
If you use tons of live plants you can silent cycle.

When it comes down to it we are fighting a pointless fight. We all cycle one way or another. It is ineveitanle you have to. We know amm is a fish killer nitrite is debatable less toxic and nitrate is alright in low levels.

 

[molliwopp]

It's more complicated than the general public is going to be able to follow unless they get really into it. Most people are going to get lost in the discussion and give up.

You have a chemistry back ground so why not lay it on the line and go into detail for the benifit of the thread or anyone reading that wants a deeper explaination of how the cycle works, break it down for us.

 

[Delapool]

It's more complicated than the general public is going to be able to follow unless they get really into it. Most people are going to get lost in the discussion and give up.

just reading a post on ph which I'll have to read a couple of times. My LFS was really good, I had no real idea of what they were talking about and accidentally converted from fishless to fish-in cycling effectively. Now I know a bit. Eventually I'd like to get into saltwater and that looks another ball game.

 

[sixtyfou]

As has been discussed in this thread. Controlling all of these variables is going to be at best difficult. Like gardening, you'll want to focus on the macro factors, temp, food, waste. You'll want to focus your efforts on those macros factors. I can spend hours trying to adjust micro factors in my tanks, or I can change the water.

I can spend hours testing soil ph, or I can just add ag lime. Testing is fun. It's not a solution.

 

[Delapool]

I like chemistry. I have all kinds of buckets, tools, and test tubes. I do hydro gardening. I read all that stuff and said, "Nope, I'm just going to throw a couple of Danios in there with a plant, and hope it doesn't die."

They're doing fine.

I don't get why you would do that and run the risk of losing your investment? I mean do you substitute the water changes for tests based on experience - I could understand the logic. That sounds a bit uncontrolled?

 

[molliwopp]

As has been discussed in this thread. Controlling all of these variables is going to be at best difficult. Like gardening, you'll want to focus on the macro factors, temp, food, waste. You'll want to focus your efforts on those macros factors. I can spend hours trying to adjust micro factors in my tanks, or I can change the water.

I can spend hours testing soil ph, or I can just add ag lime. Testing is fun. It's not a solution.

Its a solution once tested and you know how much ammonia needs to be changed out in a fish'in cycle in order to bring it to a safe level. Youre over complicating things sixtyfou, testing for ammonia and nitrite to idicate a % to change is simple enough.

 

[sixtyfou]

Danios cost a buck. 5 bucks for six. I haven't had one die yet, except for the one I smacked up against the tank moving him to another tank.

 

[Delapool]

As has been discussed in this thread. Controlling all of these variables is going to be at best difficult. Like gardening, you'll want to focus on the macro factors, temp, food, waste. You'll want to focus your efforts on those macros factors. I can spend hours trying to adjust micro factors in my tanks, or I can change the water.

I can spend hours testing soil ph, or I can just add ag lime. Testing is fun. It's not a solution.

Ok but surely testing provides an answer to the solution in general terms?

 

[sixtyfou]

Don't get me wrong. I run tests like nobodies business. I have the master kit, a pH meter, in tank meters, and I'm about to buy a seneye. However, I'm saying you could get by with water changes, and never testing a thing.

 

[sixtyfou]

I think testing the precursor water is the most important step that trips up a lot of folks. Water from a well, or certain cities is insane.

 

[molliwopp]

I think testing the precursor water is the most important step that trips up a lot of folks. Water from a well, or certain cities is insane.

Ok well let me show you a simple calculation and this is an example of why testing is needed.

**This is an example and numbers and percentages can vary but the princible is the same**

For example: we'll say your fish contribute 1ppm of ammonia daily and your tap water is at 0.

Ok so i come to my first water change and im going to be doing 50%

50% of the 1ppm created by the fish is 0.5ppm.
Day2: you still have 0.5ppm from the day before and your fish contribute another 1ppm. So thats 1ppm + 0.5 of ammonia you had before = 1.5ppm

1.5ppm with another 50% = .75ppm
.75 + another daily fish contribution of 1ppm = 1.75ppm

50% of 1.75ppm = .875ppm
.875 + 1ppm daily contrib = 1.875
And so on.

My point here is without testing and knowing what ammonia is in the tank during a fishIN cycle it can climb and without knowing bite you on your butt.

 

[sixtyfou]

Understood, what harm would be done if I changed the water too much?

 

[sixtyfou]

I change tank water while I'm talking on the phone. I can do it in my sleep.

 

[molliwopp]

Understood, what harm would be done if I changed the water too much?

That depends entirely on how often and how much youre changing. You could do 100% 3 times daily if you wanted because the tank water parameters wouldnt change and would stay the same as the water coming out of the tap. But a balance is needed in a fishin cycle because you need ammonia to start the cycle.

The problem comes when you havent been changing water and you change big percentages of water in one go as the chemistry of the water in the tank has changed over time and will shock the fish That is why people recommend small changes weekly on established tanks so the parameter dont swing, drop or jump.

 

[sixtyfou]

My system is odd, and I don't want to get into all of it, but it's labor intense because I'm doing the breeding thing.

I'm suggesting that a rookie with a 20G tank could do a fish in cycle with 5 danios, do a 20% water change twice a week for the first month and never touch a test kit.

 

[molliwopp]

My system is odd, and I don't want to get into all of it, but it's labor intense because I'm doing the breeding thing.

I'm suggesting that a rookie with a 20G tank could do a fish in cycle with 5 danios, do a 20% water change twice a week for the first month and never touch a test kit.

I would agree it could be done like this but ideally testing the water and calculating your change to keep some but safe and stress free levels of ammonia in the tank for a fishIN cycle.

 

[sixtyfou]

Commercial test kits are kind of a new thing. A plant and a few Danios work fine for years.

 

[sixtyfou]

I love me some numbers Molli, but that's not how most folks work. They need simple directions. That's why Kraft feeds America.

 

[Delapool]

I love me some numbers Molli, but that's not how most folks work. They need simple directions. That's why Kraft feeds America.

True and yes the cycle does get complex. However it can be kept simple. I think this is a tad harsh on people and they can follow directions quite well (as anyone who has bought something that comes with a little spanner and screwdriver will attest). It's just education. If ammonia is high, mom with fish may be explaining to the kids why they no longer have a fish (having said that I've already explained to ours that a fish life is short), and I don't believe any mom wants that. Yes the fish may be cheap but two kids in a fish shop (just a totally random number) to replace fish can get tedious as well.