CYCLING OPTIONS!!

[spittinfly]

Ok, it seems about 90% of people here are anti fish cycle. There are a lot of opinions and resources for people to do fishless cycles. I think it would be nice if we could start a post to help those that for whatever reason need or just do a fish cycle. If we all love the hobby so much we should want to help everyone equally and to help the fish through no matter what the situation. I myself have not decided yet but it does not help that there is no info for me to make my best decision. I do not intend to start a flaming war just to help inform people. I am sorry I can not add my expertise here but am looking forward to reading all the help from everyone.

Looking for fishy cycle help,
Spittinfly

 

[verucaproduce]

I think that the best option if someone doesn't want to wait to do a fishless cycle, is to recommend that they use bio-spira and monitor their water closely.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

The reason why so many people are anti-fish cycle is because it takes longer, is a LOT more work, and causes harm to the fish being used to cycle. A fishless could take 3 to 4 weeks whereas a fish cycle could take 6 to 8 while performing water changes on an every other day basis.

If you are going to cycle with fish, keep the Ammonia and Nitrite levels below .5 ppm. Ammonia causes burns. It probably won't kill them in smaller doses but it will cause burns on the gills and body that is impossible to repair. To keep this from occuring you need to test daily and do water changes as needed. Nitrites are poisonous at small doses. Aquarium salt helps alleviate the poisoning but it's not a "cure". Daily testing is needed along with water changes. This is usually the stage where most fish die.

Edit: Just wanted to add that it will not become a flame war Spittin. No need to worry. I will boot any member from the thread and remove posts from anyone that flames.

 

[spittinfly]

Thanks Fishyfanatic, I just thought it would be nice to get some good info out there that people could use. Any guidelines as to what % water changes in respect to what levels Ammonia or Nitrite are at. For expl. 25% if Nitrites are only .25 ppm or something like that? Sorry if it is impossible to determine.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Well, it's hard to determine. Lets say you have the following results:

Day 1: Ammonia = 0
Day 2: Ammonia = .25
Day 3: Ammonia = .5 Perform pwc of 50%, Ammonia = .25
Day 4: Ammonia = .5 Perform pwc of 50%, Ammonia = .25

or
Day 1: Ammonia = 0
Day 2: Ammonia = .1
Day 3: Ammonia = .2
Day 4: Ammonia = .3
Day 5: Ammonia = .4
Day 6: Ammonia = .5 Perform pwc of 50%, Ammonia = .25
Day 7: Ammonia = .35
Day 8: Ammonia = .45 Perform pwc of 50%, Ammonia = .225
Day 9: Ammonia = .325

Ok, so you won't ever read a .325 reading with a regular test kit BUT it's just an illustration.

And so on. Just keep that Ammonia level below .5 ppm. This is granted that your water source does not contain ammonia (besides chloramines). You'll find a routine that works for your tank. Everyone's tank is different. Me performing 50% changes once a day may not be necessary for you. You may be able to get by with every other day. You'll figure it out once you start testing.

 

[spittinfly]

.5 ammonia is a good guide to watch for and water changes will help decrease that then. When I was talking to the LFS guy he had seemed to have some sound advice and really wasn't pushing me at all to buy anything but he said that I wouldn't need a gravel vac for about 8 weeks if I had 3 mollies and 3 platys in my 35 gal hex. I found that a little extreme. Seems I would need to do it sooner to get the ammonia level down.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

You don't necessarily need a gravel vac but you need a way to change water. If you want to use a bucket and a new clean pitcher, you can go that route. I would just get the gravel vac anyway since you'll need it eventually. During the cycling process you don't want to vac the gravel unless you have a buildup of fish waste. Otherwise just leave the gravel alone. It is forming bacteria and when you vac the gravel you are removing part of it. If you get a Python just don't put the vac portion into the gravel. Make sense?

 

[spittinfly]

Yep got it. I have a pretty tall stand and my front door is about 10' away. I was thinking about getting some tubing and just syphoning out the water for my pwc's and possibly attaching some sort of grate and use it as a python to clean the gravel eventually when I do the pwc's.

 

[papa_bear_21]

The amount of work involved in fish cycling is great, but in the end, you have a great tank. We had to fish cycle our tank after an incident with some freeze dried worms and a 3 year old. We were doing 50-75% pwc's near daily, then the nitrite levels stalled out, and we had to seek a way to get them down (they stalled around 1ppm). Once that dropped, its been pretty stable.

My advice is to become OCD in monitoring your water, and your pwc's. We checked our water atleast 2 times a day, when we woke up and when we went to bed. Water changes were done almost daily. I added some bio spira, and things went to near perfect levels.

Fish cycling is harmful to the fish, but as long as you keep your levels down, your fish loss should be minimal.

 

[7Enigma]

Some of what's in this article applies to a cycle with fish as well. Key points being get as much biomedia from established tanks as you can and understanding the cycle itself. This will speed up the cycle tremendously regardless of where you are and what type of cycle you are doing.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/article_view.php?faq=2&fldAuto=52

 

[Madness]

To Cycle: Add at least one or two bunches of plants to your tank. Stock no more than 1" of slim bodied fish per ten gallons of water. Test nitrite and ammonia daily. At the first sign of measurable nitrite perform daily 50% water changes with heavy vacuuming. Continue daily 50% water changes until nitrite is no longer measurable. Once unmeasurable your tank is cycled. Your fish are still doing great because ammonia remained unmeasurable and nitrite was only at trace levels.

Always add plants as they prefer and will consume ammonia over nitrite and nitrate. Stock low to keep bioload from overloading. The daily 50% water changes along with heavy vacuuming not only keep the nitrite level in check, they also keep the bioload in check while the nitrite cycle completes. Why didn't I mention water changing during measurable ammonia, you ask? 'Cause you most likely will never encounter any measurable ammonia.

The primary reason for cycle failures even among the cycle aware is way overstocking for the process. It becomes impossible to keep up with the bioload. Ammonia and nitrite spike out of control, the tank ends up clouding over, and/or fish die. Additionally, the value of even just a few plants goes highly underestimated by far too many. We just don't see it enough in cycling info. Plants drink ammonia like mad and if the tank is stocked lowly even just a few plants will prevent any measurable ammonia from appearing. The ammonia phase of nitrification occurs invisibly with the only sign of it being the emergence of measurable nitrite.

Painless fish cycling that even the beginner can easily perform.

 

[7Enigma]

To Cycle: Add at least one or two bunches of plants to your tank. Stock no more than 1" of slim bodied fish per ten gallons of water. Test nitrite and ammonia daily. At the first sign of measurable nitrite perform daily 50% water changes with heavy vacuuming. Continue daily 50% water changes until nitrite is no longer measurable. Once unmeasurable your tank is cycled. Your fish are still doing great because ammonia remained unmeasurable and nitrite was only at trace levels.

Always add plants as they prefer and will consume ammonia over nitrite and nitrate. Stock low to keep bioload from overloading. The daily 50% water changes along with heavy vacuuming not only keep the nitrite level in check, they also keep the bioload in check while the nitrite cycle completes. Why didn't I mention water changing during measurable ammonia, you ask? 'Cause you most likely will never encounter any measurable ammonia.

The primary reason for cycle failures even among the cycle aware is way overstocking for the process. It becomes impossible to keep up with the bioload. Ammonia and nitrite spike out of control, the tank ends up clouding over, and/or fish die. Additionally, the value of even just a few plants goes highly underestimated by far too many. We just don't see it enough in cycling info. Plants drink ammonia like mad and if the tank is stocked lowly even just a few plants will prevent any measurable ammonia from appearing. The ammonia phase of nitrification occurs invisibly with the only sign of it being the emergence of measurable nitrite.

Painless fish cycling that even the beginner can easily perform.

I just look at all that work with the testing, daily water changes, possible algae issues (due to free ammonia in the water) and wonder why? Other than being able to see your fish on day one, it just seems like such a hassle. And then when you are "cycled" you go and add more fish to the tank and have another possible mini-cycle. Back to the water changes and testing, etc.

:?

 

[Madness]

And then when you are "cycled" you go and add more fish to the tank and have another possible mini-cycle. Back to the water changes and testing, etc.

You place "cycled" in parentheses to suggest that the tank is not really cycled. How unfortunate because the mini-cycle you mention can happen anytime too much stock is added to a tank, regardless of how it is cycled initially. Moreover, with only a few plants and limiting stock increases to 50% of current stock or less will avoid producing measurable nitrite or ammonia.

I just look at all that work with the testing, daily water changes, possible algae issues (due to free ammonia in the water) and wonder why?

If we start a new tank, we are going to be testing no matter how we start it. Daily water changes are a product of fish cycling. But when it's done as I recommend they last only for a week to ten days.

Algae is not an issue of cycling, but lighting. It's bacterial blooms (white colored clouding of the water). And they occur because cycling information is so poor. Stocking suggestions are often way out of proportion and there most often is no mention of plants. It's poor information that leads to bio-overloading, nitrogen spikes, clouding, and dead fish - not fish cycling.

Why? Because when we erase the misinformation cycling is not only easy, it's easy to perform successfully. Measurable ammonia is avoided. Nitrite is kept at trace levels. Clouding over is avoided. And our fish are with us when we're done.

 

[spittinfly]

thank you Madness

 

[7Enigma]

You place "cycled" in parentheses to suggest that the tank is not really cycled. How unfortunate because the mini-cycle you mention can happen anytime too much stock is added to a tank, regardless of how it is cycled initially. Moreover, with only a few plants and limiting stock increases to 50% of current stock or less will avoid producing measurable nitrite or ammonia.

I just look at all that work with the testing, daily water changes, possible algae issues (due to free ammonia in the water) and wonder why?

If we start a new tank, we are going to be testing no matter how we start it. Daily water changes are a product of fish cycling. But when it's done as I recommend they last only for a week to ten days.

You can easily create more bacteria than is needed....easily. That's why I put "cycling" in quotes. The slow stocking, waiting, measuring, PWC's, is exactly as it sounds....cyclical. Fishless cycling really should be renamed to fishless preparation or some other noncyclical term since if done properly you can on DAY 1 stock your tank.

If you start a new tank with a fishless cycle you have no reason to test for at least a few days. Comfortably a week or more. Why test during this time? There's no fish to get poisoned, no PWC's to be done, just sit back and wait.

The week to 10 days comment is a no-no in both fish and fishless cycling. That's a number you pulled out of a hat and it has no bearing on my, your's, or the OP's tank. There are many variables that affect a cycle, and to put a 3 day window on that is foolish. IMO of course.

Algae is not an issue of cycling, but lighting. It's bacterial blooms (white colored clouding of the water). And they occur because cycling information is so poor. Stocking suggestions are often way out of proportion and there most often is no mention of plants. It's poor information that leads to bio-overloading, nitrogen spikes, clouding, and dead fish - not fish cycling.

Why? Because when we erase the misinformation cycling is not only easy, it's easy to perform successfully. Measurable ammonia is avoided. Nitrite is kept at trace levels. Clouding over is avoided. And our fish are with us when we're done.

I assumed since you have plants in the tank you will have the lights on correct I mean what is the point of having plants if you don't supply them with light! No light = little to no ammonia absorption. Plants in a tank with little to no light become ammonia PRODUCERS, not consumers. They will just slowly rot in the tank.

Cycling with fish is an antiquated method. In the past it was all people knew, it worked, so they used it. It still works today, can be done successfully without *much* harm to the fish, and is a viable option, BUT its been surpassed by an easier, safer, and quicker method. Honestly if there was a superior benefit (exercise?) it wouldn't be as frowned upon on here as it is.

 

[Madness]

I didn't pull the week to ten days out of my hat. It's pulled from my experience. It's related to the parameters I use to cycle. Change the parameters - change the time - change what your experience will be. I'll reiterate that algea blooms have nothing to do with cycling - it has to do with lighting. We control the risk of an algea bloom during the cycle the same way we do it after the cycle by limiting our photo period to 8 to 10 hours. Cycling or not cycling is mute.

And lets face it. Fish cycling is frowned upon because of failures, a love of fish, and misinformation, period. With the right info not only can failures be avoided the fish barely experience a stress. From my vantage point, fishless cycling isn't the answer. In fact, it's a completely unnecessary waste of time that lasts for weeks. The answer is proper stock and plants.

So. Yes, there is a superior aspect to fish cycling. We get to enjoy our aquatic life without wasting weeks dosing ammonia and performing water tests on an empty tank. Sure we have to use our Pythons daily for a while, but that hardly even counts as exercise. Buckets! Talk about antiquated!

I understand this is apparently an unpopular view here, but, nonetheless, there it is.

 

[LandGhoti]

And lets face it. Fish cycling is frowned upon because of failures, a love of fish, and misinformation, period. With the right info not only can failures be avoided the fish barely experience a stress. From my vantage point, fishless cycling isn't the answer. In fact, it's a completely unnecessary waste of time that lasts for weeks. The answer is proper stock and plants.

Yes, it's frowned upon because most people do not *immediately* want to deal with plants, which help the cycle, and thus make you more ready to handle the bioload of fish. So without real plants, they are forced to do daily water changes. Most people do not want to do this. And PS, ANY ammonia will stress the fish and that is why fish cycling is frowned upon. Yes, love of fish, of course (because why else are we here?) but misinformation? I don't think so. Why stress these beautiful creatures when you don't have to? Because you're impatient? This is not a "quick fix" hobby.

EDIT: And PPS, I didn't have a Python when I first started up my tank, and most people don't. I was using buckets (and now have a Python). Most people starting out in this hobby only learn the true ins and outs of fish-keeping after frequenting the forums (here and elsewhere). So do not assume that *everyone* starts out with a Python.

 

[Madness]

Throwing in two or three bunches of floating plants is hardly something to "deal" with where weeks of dosing and testing an empty tank is. Fishless cycling is an unnecessary waste of time. If someone wants to do it, or prefers to do it, by all means - enjoy. It's just not needed to produce a healthy tank with healthy fish.

 

[rkilling1]

I'll reiterate that algea blooms have nothing to do with cycling - it has to do with lighting. We control the risk of an algea bloom during the cycle the same way we do it after the cycle by limiting our photo period to 8 to 10 hours. Cycling or not cycling is mute.

If you have plants in an aquarium, you have to have enough light for them to be able to grow. Any time you are 'cycling' a tank, you have some amount of avalible NH3/NH4 in the water column. Light and NH3 = Algae.

Your views are not unlike a lot of peoples on this subject, but most people call it a "silent cycle". This is the way to go if you have the budget and the want to go planted.

 

[Madness]

There is always available ammonia in the water columb whether cycling or not. Otherwise our nitrifying bacteria would be dead. Again, the threat of an algea bloom is always present. The cycle is mute.

It doesn't in the least require costly lighting, ferts, substrate, or CO2 injection to support the level of plants needed for the measurable ammonia free cycle I describe. My 150 gallon has a whopping 30 watts of home made light. It supports Anacharis, Hornwort, and Java Fern. It sure doesn't look like planted tanks done well, but it did give me a measurable ammonia free cycle with healthy fish.