Diary of a teardown...

[TankGirl]

How do you get away with totally tearing down your tank, removing every object except gravel, scrubbing every bit of glass and every filter intake/outflow/heater/CO2 diffuser, etc., plus gravel vac'ing extremely vigorously the entire tank, doing almost a 100% water change and not have a cycle of any kind? I don't know! This is not something I would ever recommend, and is strongly advised against by most anyone who knows something about keeping aquariums. Plus, this took almost a whole day and was a major pain. The family thought I had lost my mind. Maybe I did.

Here's the story: BBA took over my 55. Completely. Totally. I got busy and was not doing the daily nutrient dosing, and it was taking over every single plant, rock or solid structure in the tank. The visible driftwood was covered in fur. Even though I went back to my dosing routine it would not die. The problem for me is high lighting and high tap water concentrations of phosphate (5ppm - not 0.5) that I could not deal with effectively with phosphate media in my filter or compensatory nitrate dosing.

I had a nice carpet of glosso, and the background had filled in 100%, but here is the most recent pic of the tank:

Here is the tank today:

I removed everything and bleach dipped the plants. Some stayed in longer than others depending on what kind of plant, but I trashed a major portion of plants that could not be saved. The driftwood and rocks soaked in a slightly stronger bleach solution and I am wire brushing them to get rid of the dead algae. I will soak them in heavily dechlorinated water for another day and let them dry in the sun, and they don't go back into the tank until I can't smell any bleach whatsoever. Then I'll replant. I did replace some of the java fern to give the cats and plecos somewhere to hang, and to give the Endler's fry some protection. I need to clean my filter hoses but I will wait a week or two to do that - why push my luck?

The fish are completely and totally fine. Not a single death, not even baby Endler's, after two days. Add to this the fact that though I had let my pH go back up prior to tearing down the tank since I knew I would be doing a big water change, it would only get up to 7 (up from where I keep it at 6.7 with CO2 at 30ppm) and my tap is about 7.6 or so. They did not seem to mind the pH difference, either. There is not a trace of ammonia or nitrite. I am leaving the lights off (turned them on for the picture) until I get my plants back in there, and will cut the lighting in half to a little over 2wpg and monitor things closely so they don't get out of hand.

The results of my drastic procedure goes against collective wisdom (there should have been a mini cycle and at least some of the fish should have died from pH shock), so I thought I'd post about it to spark a discussion about what we think we know to be true. Thoughts?

 

[lmw80]

wow! well, I am just speechless!!

 

[Crusis]

Man, that's a lot of work! I hate tearing down a tank and restarting, but it's something that happens to everyone now and then. I had to tear everything down for a move in July, and set it all back up in the new house. Not fun.

When you say 'rocks', do you mean the decorative rocks or the substrate gravel? If you only vacced the gravel I bet that was what kept the cycle from happening. Just a guess, though. Why look a gift horse in the mouth?

 

[TankGirl]

I have decorative rocks that had to be soaked and scrubbed, and many pieces of gravel had BBA stuck to them, so I removed them by hand (BrianNY knows what I mean about this task ).

I then vac'd the gravel deeply in all areas, turning it all over vigorously, in a way that I usually do not recommend, especially when combined with removing all structures in the tank that could support biobugs.

 

[Jchillin]

Ok, you got me there TG. If you recall, I tore down my 30 gal, had a mini-cycle and lost fish in the process.

Now I'm completely insane with jealousy but I don't wish that process on anyone, especially one with soooo many beautiful plants.

Great to hear you were successful.

 

[azn_fishy55]

I know how you feel TankGirl,I had to tear down my tank twice because of staghorn algae break-out and another time to change the substrate. It was a tiring process,planting replanting moving the tank out side to scrub the algae off....it was very tiring espeacially after school. But then I always want best for my aquarium and every thing in it, so it was worth it.

 

[Meredith]

My new tank is still cycling, and I am planning to move all my plants (or most anyway) over to the new tank. I also have a very bad BBA problem in the 55. What is the bleach solution you used for your plants? And every piece of driftwood I have is also fuzzy but there is also java fern on all of them. Should I just scrub away what I can?
Its so weird to see what a huge difference plants make in a tank. I am glad that everyone survived!

 

[TankGirl]

Meredith - I use one capful of "ultra" bleach (can't get anything else these days) per gallon of water to dip my plants. I removed all of my plants from their rocks or driftwood for dipping. The java fern can handle 4-5 minutes in this solution, as can the Anubias sp., but my other plants I left in only 2 minutes or less. I would really recommend painstakingly removing every single filament of BBA from everywhere you can (as much as possible) in order to keep it from returning. A lot of plants had to be sacrificed but I can replace those without too much difficulty once order is restored. I can use cuttings from other tanks to help jump-start the process.

The rocks and driftwood got a slightly stronger bleach solution, maybe a capful-and-a-half per gallon. I now have the wood all completely scrubbed free of now light grey fuzz. The only thing that would get it off was a wire brush, and lots of elbow grease. It does not come off easily at all, even dead. I will have to re-tie the java fern/moss and the anubias to the driftwood. I pruned every plant free of as much BBA as I could, so the anubias has a big long ole rhizome but only a few leaves. I lost a ton of glosso, because even though it was spreading and covering the entire open area of the substrate it had tiny bits on the majority of it. I saved some, though, and considering how fast it grew since I got it I am not too worried. This is definitely not going to be a heavily planted tank for a while!

Years ago I changed out some substrate and caused a cycle, myself, so I have no clue why I did not crash the tank. This week's fun was much more drastic than when I moved, because then I just took everything as-is and put it in tubs, keeping the substrate and plants/rocks/driftwood intact and wet, and setting it up again. I guess it is just that hefty XP3 filter that is supporting the tank. I tested again just now and I still even have only about 5ppm nitrate, ammonia and nitrite still zero.

 

[BillD]

A couple of points here. Since the water you used probably had the same TDS as the water you discarded, even though the pH was different, there would be no deaths from pH shock. There is strong eveidence to indicate that so called pH shock is not caused by differences in pH but rather because of differences in TDS, which is total dissolved solids. I have done this a few times for various reasons,and I bleach everything; tank, rocks, gravel, and filter. I always prefer to start from scratch, with a sterile environment. I actually did thes a few weeks ago, to set up a planted tank. The fish went in the next day (just a few baby guppys). I have never conciously cycled a tank, as more often than not I come home from a fish club meeting with a bag of fish, and have to set up a tank within the hour and be off to work. This, of course often means sterile tank, sterile filter, and sterile water. I know I'll have to do a few extra water changes while the tank gets itself cycled. I have yet to lose a fish from doing this. I would, of course, prefer to have a mature filter, but it seldom works out that way. It has yet to be a problem. For what it's worth.

 

[TankGirl]

That is interesting about TDS - since this tank gets weekly 50% PWCs then I suspect you are right. Interestingly enough, when I do the water change I watch my pH monitor and after that major PWC, with the tank at 6.7 and the tap at 7.6, I do not see the pH fluctuate.

All of this reminds me how much I have to learn and how many factors that we may or may not be aware of influence our tanks.

 

[Crusis]

I always buy a new filter for an old tank, and move an old filter to the new tank when I'm setting one up. Even if it's not the right size filter, it gets things started, and I can get the right size filter set up later in addition to the bio-donor filter.

It seems to work.

I bet your gravel saved you, Tankgirl, since you didn't bleach it but just hand cleaned it. I'm sure there were still hordes of bacteria living in it.

I'll have to keep that in mind next time I break one down and rebuild.

 

[BillD]

That is interesting about TDS - since this tank gets weekly 50% PWCs then I suspect you are right. Interestingly enough, when I do the water change I watch my pH monitor and after that major PWC, with the tank at 6.7 and the tap at 7.6, I do not see the pH fluctuate.

.

I find it interesting that there is no fluctuation in the pH when you do the water changes. I recall Jack Wattley saying they figured they were doing 50% daily water changes, by the pH fluctuation. He had a 1200gal holding tank, that they dumped daily into the tanks, which all had overflows. By monitoring the pH flucuation, they determined that they were actually changing 50% of the water. By the way, I like the sound of 50% weekly PWC. You can't change too much water, too often, IME.

 

[TankGirl]

I like the sound of 50% weekly PWC. You can't change too much water, too often, IME.

Me, too. I do it in all my tanks and it has served me well. I started doing it that way because I wanted to be sure I was not building up nutrients since I was dosing ferts throughout the week, and the fish and plants respond so well to a large regular water change that I continue. I think it reduces likelihood of illness and other problems, and the vast majority of my fish die of old age. Other than phosphate ( ) my tap water is very good and is moderately hard, which I like.

I have no idea why my pH does not rise with PWCs, it does not make sense. I recalibrated my monitor to be sure, since it seemed wrong. I do not think there is any way for the CO2 monitor to crank up the flow of gas to compensate for the pH as I am filling, especially since the filters are off.

I suppose I should adopt the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude and just be happy that the tank keeps a stable pH and did not crash after being torn down, but it makes me wonder, and it makes me feel ignorant of what is going on in my tanks.

 

[czcz]

I have no idea why my pH does not rise with PWCs, it does not make sense.

I think this is because the tap is high in CO2. I would bet this is an advantage of the Python, since tap water doesnt get a chance to sit.

 

[TankGirl]

I don't believe my tap has CO2 concentrations, because after sitting overnight in a container with a bubble wand the pH remains at 7.6. My other tanks that do not have CO2 injection all sit at 7.6 reliably, except my African tanks, which I have buffered up to about 8 with substrate, rocks and CC in my filters.

Interestingly, this is the tank that I had the Pogostemon stellata (it had begun to develop "maroon" new growth, as I hoped), and as you saw in my pic of it, there was not a hint of BBA on it - I moved it over to my 2wpg tank for safekeeping until I get the lights back on in the 55 (hopefully tomorrow).

The Hemianthus micranthemoides (baby tears) never had even a single filament of BBA on it in this tank, either. Also, Vesicularia Dubyana, java moss, had almost no BBA on it. Interesting.... maybe I need to stick to BBA-resistant plants from now on?

 

[czcz]

The pH thing is interesting too. I am also curious about the why but the answer is probably over my head.

I think those three plants could make a very interesting aquascape, but I am no aquascaper. I think once you beat your BBA you can beat anything.

 

[TankGirl]

The pH thing is interesting too. I am also curious about the why but the answer is probably over my head.

Mine too, I'm afraid.

I have saved a good portion of dwarf sag, java fern, huge rhizomes of A. nana and barteri, watersprite, some red temple, and some glosso, all of which appeared free of BBA but got a dip in the bleach solution anyway, and so far are holding their own floating in a clear/translucent dish pan filled with water sitting in a sunny window, waiting for the driftwood and rocks to go in the tank. If the BBA comes back maybe I'll go "Amano" and limit the tank to one or two plant species and keep it simple, but that will be hard for me. I am disgusted enough that it is a real possibility, lol! None of my other tanks have BBA so I am hoping that by cutting the light to a more reasonable level I won't have such an issue, *knock tank* I feel like a failure that it got the best of me, but I'm not willing to tote jugs of R/O water to circumvent my tap water PO4, so I'll just have to admit defeat. I do think I can grow pretty much whatever I want with 2.5wpg or so.

 

[greenmaji]

I think it reduces likelihood of illness and other problems, and the vast majority of my fish die of old age.

keeping more prestine then what is generaly thought of as execptable water conditons is IMHO the reason your fish pass of old age.. this has been my experiance.. and I have noticed that it took MANY years to see this pattern. It is discouging to me to see new hobbiest follow all the "rules" and have illness problems when IME the only problem is not enough water changes.. when I took my last FW down I was doing 75% pwc's weekly.. this had been my practiace for a decade.. I had not lost one fish to illness in that time.. I persoanly belive that your experiance is much like ours..
great phlosopy.. Ill be giving kudoes to all that discussed this in this thread..

 

[TankGirl]

It has been suggested to me that maybe I should run my lighting back up over 4wpg like I was and resume my dosing, except I should test regularly for PO4 and I may actually be lacking that nutrient mid-week or so. With the NO3 maintained I could be running out of PO4 in spite of such high concentrations in my tap water. That is an interesting concept, and one that had not occurred to me as I focused on how to reduce it. I'll try this and see what happens.

 

[sudz]

may i make a suggestion to have "BBA" Acronym listed?

and... what the heck IS BBA?

From what i'm gathering, its good thing that i haven't heard of it!