Did I stall or kill my cycle?

[mrfishybetta]

I've had my heated and filtered 5g going for a while now, started about a month ago with seeded filter material from my LFS (not so local! 65 miles! lol) and a cluster of anacharis stems.

Everything seemed to be going well - I was dosing to about 3ish ppm with pure ammonia and putting some flakes in there too. It eventually got to the point where the ammonia would process out in about 30 hours back down to almost 0, at which point I would redose. My nitrites were (and still are) off the chart high, and nitrates were (and probably still are, I haven't bothered testing them as often) about 80ppm.

I read that to be considered cycled, the ammonia AND nitrites had to process to 0 in 12 hours.

Well, on a redose of ammonia about 1 week ago, I must have gotten the ppm too high? I'm guessing about to a 4, maybe even a 4.5ppm. (I guess I got cocky with my measuring of ammonia because I didn't test the water after adding and only did a teeny waterchange). Because instead of dropping back to 0 within those 30 hours, it's been about a week! It HAS dropped, but very very slowly, and for the last 2 days it's been at about .35ppm.

Should mention that there are two plants in there now (the anacharis died) - one Anubias and one Mexican oak cluster.

I'm concerned I killed some of the bacteria. Or did I just overdose them and they are still working on it? Should I just wait it out or...? Advice greatly appreciated!

 

[Caliban07]

This is easily solved. You need to do as many water changes as necessary to get nitrites so that are not off the charts. This will also bring down nitrates.

When you can read nitrites do not add anything until they hit 0pp on their own. Then re-dose ammonia to about 2ppm and take it from there. You have just overwhelmed the bacteria that's all. Please test ph too before you do anything and report back what the value is. This may give us a reason why the ammonia has suddenly slowed down.

The bacteria uses up the waters alkalinity which is what is keeping the ph stable. Once it is all gone. The ph becomes unstable and begins to decline. When ph declines low enough (ph <6) the bacteria slow down and cease to function. According to studies that is.

Good luck


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[mrfishybetta]

Oh dear So have I been doing it wrong all along? I read that I was supposed to keep adding ammonia and that it was ok for nitrites to be off the chart high, and that they would come down on their own.

My pH has been stable so far, at 7.6, which is what it comes out of the tap as.

 

[pelphrey]

They will come down after you do some water changes and are able to read the nitrites on the test like Caliban07 said. The system is being trained to remove nitrates, but it can only remove what is can process. I'd bet that after a water change the nitrites start to go away. At which point you can do another water change to sort of "reset" the process. Dose your ammonia and test in 24 hours.

 

[mrfishybetta]

Ok thanks! You mentioned two water changes, how long between the two? Or just do the second one once I see nitrites dropping?

I was hesitant to change any water, lest I mess it up!

One last question: How to deal with evaporation? My house is INCREDIBLY dry, so water evaporates very fast, leaving my heater and plants too exposed. Do I just add more water in? But that sounds like it would throw off my readings. I was adding water before redosing from 0ppm, so it was fine then, but now that I have weird/irregular numbers, what do?

 

[Caliban07]

Oh dear So have I been doing it wrong all along? I read that I was supposed to keep adding ammonia and that it was ok for nitrites to be off the chart high, and that they would come down on their own.

My pH has been stable so far, at 7.6, which is what it comes out of the tap as.

The fish less cycling guide needs re-writing in my opinion. Looked in to this over a year ago. You are not the first to deal with off the chart nitrites and you won't be the last because the guide prompts to keep adding ammonia.

Ph looks good. Water changes won't harm a thing. The tank WILL cycle inevitably. Bare in mind that cycling usually takes 4 weeks or more but you should see a decline in nitrites after about 3 weeks.


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[Caliban07]

Ok thanks! You mentioned two water changes, how long between the two? Or just do the second one once I see nitrites dropping?

I was hesitant to change any water, lest I mess it up!

One last question: How to deal with evaporation? My house is INCREDIBLY dry, so water evaporates very fast, leaving my heater and plants too exposed. Do I just add more water in? But that sounds like it would throw off my readings. I was adding water before redosing from 0ppm, so it was fine then, but now that I have weird/irregular numbers, what do?

The best thing to top of evaporated water with is RODI water which you can purchase from any reputable local fish store.

If you keep replenishing the water level with tap water you will increase the concentration of dissolved solids since these get left behind in the water when evaporation occurs. Having said that some people do this with no ill effect but the water chemistry will change if you top off with tap water.


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[pelphrey]

The fish less cycling guide needs re-writing in my opinion. Looked in to this over a year ago. You are not the first to deal with off the chart nitrites and you won't be the last because the guide prompts to keep adding ammonia.

Ph looks good. Water changes won't harm a thing. The tank WILL cycle inevitably. Bare in mind that cycling usually takes 4 weeks or more but you should see a decline in nitrites after about 3 weeks.


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I've only cycled a handful of tanks. Always used Dr Tims Ammonia. I used the fishless cycle guide when I started. My tanks typically cycled within 2 weeks. Once the tank started to show high nitrites I've always done large water changes and dosed ammonia again. Always shortly after the tank would convert ammonia into nitrates.

 

[mkat]

I thought I understood what I am supposed to be doing with the cycling that I just started on my 50 gallon tank until I read this thread...

 

[pelphrey]

mket use the fishless cycle guide as your starting point. Use your testing kit (API Freshwater Master Test Kit) to dictate what happens next during the cycle. Dose ammonia. Test in a few days, if ammonia has dropped dose to the PPM you started with. Test for nitrites. Now you have ammonia and nitrites showing on your tests. When you test nitrites if they are off the chart do a water change. be sure to remember when adding water back into the aquarium to use prime or the water conditioner you prefer then dose ammonia again. Once this process has started nitrates will start to show up. At this point I do daily large water changes, add prime, dose ammonia. Test for all 3 the next day. If ammonia and nitrites are gone and you have nitrates you are complete.

I should mention this has worked for me on 5 tanks. Of course filters have to be running during the process to convert ammonia into nitrites then into nitrates. But I've also had a wave maker running for water movement. The guide is really long and did help me. Testing the water on a daily or regular basis is the best way. This way you know what your next step will be. It sounds a lot more difficult than it is. Its a rather interesting process and you'll pick up on it just fine!

 

[mkat]

pelphrey

So when i started and added the water conditioner 2 days ago the ammonia level was 0.

I added so it became 4 ppm ammonia. It has been 48 hours since. So in another 24 hours I test ammonia again, if it has dropped I put it back to 4ppm, if it has not dropped I wait another 24 hours.

If it has dropped I test for nitrites and should see a result. From that point on i check it daily and continue to top up the ammonia to 4ppm until i see the nitrites go off the chart. Once they are I change the water (25%???) and add ammonia up to the 4ppm again. From then on I change the water daily(50%???) wait 24 hours then test for ammonia, nitrites and nitrAtes... if I see no ammonia and no nitrites and only nitrAtes 24 hours after changing the water and dosing the ammonia, then I am ready.

Does the above in my own words sound correct? Is 50% what you meant by a large water change?

Thanks

 

[mrfishybetta]

Wow, awesome responses! Thank you! I just got home and tested my pH...turns out I'm down to 6.4! Which is probably why things are slowing down, yes? Would it still be ok to do a water change since there is such a difference from that to my tap (7.6)? Ph fluctuations can shock fish - can they shock bacteria as well?

Gah, this is frustrating! I agree with mkat - I thought I knew what I was doing til today!

 

[mrfishybetta]

Wow, awesome responses! Thank you! I just got home and tested my pH...turns out I'm down to 6.4! Which is probably why things are slowing down, yes? Would it still be ok to do a water change since there is such a difference from that to my tap (7.6)? Ph fluctuations can shock fish - can they shock bacteria as well?

Gah, this is frustrating! I agree with mkat - I thought I knew what I was doing til today!

 

[Caliban07]

I've only cycled a handful of tanks. Always used Dr Tims Ammonia. I used the fishless cycle guide when I started. My tanks typically cycled within 2 weeks. Once the tank started to show high nitrites I've always done large water changes and dosed ammonia again. Always shortly after the tank would convert ammonia into nitrates.

Correct me if I am wrong but the cycling guide does not call for mid cycle water changes?


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[Caliban07]

I thought I understood what I am supposed to be doing with the cycling that I just started on my 50 gallon tank until I read this thread...

Follow the guide. When your nitrites go way off the charts just do small water changes to get them at a readable level. The nitrite bacteria takes longer to multiply while the ammonia bacteria is happily nitrifying the ammonia and throwing more and more nitrite at the nitrite eating bacteria but they are simply not in sufficient numbers to take care of it. And so you get a massive backlog of nitrites and they fly of the charts.

If you keep nitrites at a readable level it's easier to see when they are starting to come down. You should then test for nitrate to confirm and start dose lower amounts of ammonia like 2ppm.


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[Caliban07]

Wow, awesome responses! Thank you! I just got home and tested my pH...turns out I'm down to 6.4! Which is probably why things are slowing down, yes? Would it still be ok to do a water change since there is such a difference from that to my tap (7.6)? Ph fluctuations can shock fish - can they shock bacteria as well?



Gah, this is frustrating! I agree with mkat - I thought I knew what I was doing til today!

No the bacteria have a wide operating range when it comes to ph. The water change will replenish the alkalinity that the bacteria require to function and since you have no fish it's not going to be a problem. Studies show bacteria slow at 6.5 ph and stop altogether at <6 ph.

Do me a favour. Bring up your water quality report on the web and see how they describe your tap water ie very soft, soft, hard, very hard etc.

Thanks


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[Caliban07]

The most important thing to monitor is ph. Don't get so hung up on checking levels everyday. The cycle in most cases takes at least 1 month and you just end up wasting test kit reagents.




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[Caliban07]

Oh and I forgot to mention 1ppm ammonia = 2.7ppm nitrite and since nitrosomonas (ammonia nitrifying bacteria) is much more efficient in smaller numbers than nitrobacter/nitrospira (not clarified nitrite nitrifying bacteria) you can see how easily nitrites get out of hand when you are continually dosing 4ppm ammonia.


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[ppo8820]

No its not killed, but it is stalled by the high and constant ammonia dosing. I had the same issue. Do a large water change, like 80%. Dose the ammonia to 1-2ppm. This will allow the Nitrite bacteria to catch up quicker as its currently struggling hard with the constant ammonia. Give it a chance to catch up and it will. I was losing hope waiting for those Nitrites, but they DID eventually come down. Took 3-4 weeks.

 

[mrfishybetta]

Thank you 8820 and Caliban. I did a smaller water change (because I'm a worrywart) and then dosed just to about 2ppm. Fingers crossed!