Experienced vs InExperienced

[amyb_70]

Some of you will understand this others won't. I'm a newbie at Fish and Aquarium keeping, less than 1 year from the day I started this hobby. I will say it's much different than I expected but none the less my daughter and I enjoy it. I came to AA to get help, advice, opinions, suggestions and to learn and learn more.
So why this thread? Well a while back I asked what you all thought of newbies adding their opinion or advice to threads. The outcome as I understood was YES add, also advise that you don't know factual but what your experience was in the situation.
With this said, there seems to be some issues with the experienced members and those of us still learning. I'd like to comment on this, although your experienced/ professional whatever it may be I think it is safe to say you did Not start with the 20, 30, 40 + years experience ya all speak of. I'm in the last age range so impossible for me to have that much experience. I do have 20+ years of working with people of many diversities, riches to homeless. That does not qualify me as knowing all about people.
Some of you know what I'm referring to, as I have gotten a couple msgs asking that I stay at AA and it's newbies who WANT TO LEARN make it worth those more experienced to want to stay and help us. So I ask, why do you belittle us? Or remind us regularly how experienced you are, if you have helped me I remember those of you who know what your talking about. To down us for just starting out I'd say - remember where you started, maybe a site like this would have helped you. Also I don't know enough about any fish to advise, I do know my experiences and feel it's okay to share that as long as the OP knows it was my case 1 time deal.
For those who have msg me and said it's members like me that make the site worth while, I only wish the "seasoned" members felt the same. I have counted on you folks many times, but am seriously considering moving on, and hoping for the best. I've learned so much from some of you. To share a bit about me, I've been told how dumb I am enough by my ex to last a life time, I don't need or want it from people who are here and claim to want to help. Either help or don't.
If you feel I posted a comment you feel is out of line msg me, don't retaliate by bashing me here. My intention is to hurt no one! I know you've seen me say that too.
I thank and applaud the few who took the time to msg me last night. It means a lot to me, knowing those with experience feel I too have valid points.
I would like to stay and continue with AA much will depend on the levels of response that comes from this thread if any or if it's even allowed to stay up I'm not sure.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Linwood]

I am new to this hobby, but I have been around messaging boards, and managing people and being managed remotely by email, and dealing with electronic communication of various types since long before Al Gore invented the internet, and one thing is certain - how someone reads your words will rarely be the way you intended them.

I do not claim to be good at such communication, though I think I have gotten better. Taking the time to be unambiguous, and trying to make sure humor is recognized as such, can go a long way to avoiding misunderstandings, but still not avoid them.

For example, something as innocuous as saying "why did you do that?" could be an inquiry for information from the author, but read as a condemnation phrased as a rhetorical question by the reader.

I also just started in the hobby. I also have been helped a lot here. At least so far I haven't been prompted to leave, so to the extent my experience is helpful to you:

- Don't ask questions without first spending some time with Google (or your favorite search engine) and at least see if there is objective truth just waiting to be plucked. If it is an unsettled topic, at least then you can frame your questions to start from what you know, as opposed to ground zero.

- Get to the point (one of my worst habits is writing far more words than necessary)

- Clearly state what you believe are facts vs opinions vs experiences

- Be constructive, but also ask yourself "is what I am saying actionable". If it's just adding color to the conversation without solving the OP's problem, decide if silence is better - some threads are social in nature, some are after a fix to a problem. Adding color as opposed to actionable information to the latter is not well received, usually, but fine in a social dialog.

I don't suggest you fail on these; these are general. I have failed in all of them regularly and try to learn from them. Do with it what you will.

I do suggest you search for your recent replies and read them objectively; I did, and there are some interesting observations you will make if you approach them as through from a 3rd party.

 

[DaveHoffman]

I'm new here, so I can't speak to that, but I think you'll get that in any forum anywhere. No place is safe from the boastful know-it-alls, or think-they-know-it-alls who intentionally, or unintentionally talk down to people. I work in IT, so there's times I hit the net looking for help on things, and I see it all the time on those forums.

Just like Earth, the majority of people are good and helpful. Just need to filter out the ones who aren't and don't worry about it.

I'm sort of a reborn newbie myself. I had tanks years ago, so I'm familiar with setting a tank up to where I don't need a cheatsheet. But doing research now, there's a lot of things I was never aware of, to where I almost feel like I'm new at this. It's nice to see others who also are a little lost on things

 

[amyb_70]

I am new to this hobby, but I have been around messaging boards, and managing people and being managed remotely by email, and dealing with electronic communication of various types since long before Al Gore invented the internet, and one thing is certain - how someone reads your words will rarely be the way you intended them.



I do not claim to be good at such communication, though I think I have gotten better. Taking the time to be unambiguous, and trying to make sure humor is recognized as such, can go a long way to avoiding misunderstandings, but still not avoid them.



For example, something as innocuous as saying "why did you do that?" could be an inquiry for information from the author, but read as a condemnation phrased as a rhetorical question by the reader.



I also just started in the hobby. I also have been helped a lot here. At least so far I haven't been prompted to leave, so to the extent my experience is helpful to you:



- Don't ask questions without first spending some time with Google (or your favorite search engine) and at least see if there is objective truth just waiting to be plucked. If it is an unsettled topic, at least then you can frame your questions to start from what you know, as opposed to ground zero.



- Get to the point (one of my worst habits is writing far more words than necessary)



- Clearly state what you believe are facts vs opinions vs experiences



- Be constructive, but also ask yourself "is what I am saying actionable". If it's just adding color to the conversation without solving the OP's problem, decide if silence is better - some threads are social in nature, some are after a fix to a problem. Adding color as opposed to actionable information to the latter is not well received, usually, but fine in a social dialog.



I don't suggest you fail on these; these are general. I have failed in all of them regularly and try to learn from them. Do with it what you will.



I do suggest you search for your recent replies and read them objectively; I did, and there are some interesting observations you will make if you approach them as through from a 3rd party.

Thank. You. Your choice in words are a bit better than mine. I have concluded that I may have come off the wrong way in some or maybe many of my comments. Most of the people I have dealt with here know or should know I mean no harm. This is why I say IMO or to tell person if they are coming across like a [moderator edit].

I thank and applaud your honesty and way with wording.
Also note I do tons of research before jumping on here and asking questions. I look for google answer and someone here to confirm or advise of a better way.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Patty1980]

Stay Amy. You and I are in this about the same amount of time. You are always honest and upfront when replying in threads about your experience level. Not all the newbies are. Some people I just write off as tools and let it slide off my back. I Definitely have a select few members I've already mentally labeled as morons. So, now I just disregard them.......or silently mock O Its even more fun to get on AA with a glass of wine or two....chills me right out, LOL. So, again please stay

 

[mikem691]

Stick around! I too sometimes get fed up here but what I do is just take a break from the site. I have caught my self typing and re read it then deleted it. Its frustrating that some ask for advice but wont take any of it. others are so passionate on the hobby that they respond like you just harmed their whole family. I have been here long enough that I know who to trust and who to question if I think the advice is wrong. I also know when to keep my 2 cents to my self. A lot of great people are gone because of exactly what this thread is about and its a shame. A lot of them had extensive experience in certain species that most don't have. It was a big loss when they either left on their own or were banned because of others starting "fights" with them.
So please stick around and don't let others get to you.

 

[gilpi]

Some of you will understand this others won't. I'm a newbie at Fish and Aquarium keeping, less than 1 year from the day I started this hobby. I will say it's much different than I expected but none the less my daughter and I enjoy it. I came to AA to get help, advice, opinions, suggestions and to learn and learn more.
So why this thread? Well a while back I asked what you all thought of newbies adding their opinion or advice to threads. The outcome as I understood was YES add, also advise that you don't know factual but what your experience was in the situation.
With this said, there seems to be some issues with the experienced members and those of us still learning. I'd like to comment on this, although your experienced/ professional whatever it may be I think it is safe to say you did Not start with the 20, 30, 40 + years experience ya all speak of. I'm in the last age range so impossible for me to have that much experience. I do have 20+ years of working with people of many diversities, riches to homeless. That does not qualify me as knowing all about people.
Some of you know what I'm referring to, as I have gotten a couple msgs asking that I stay at AA and it's newbies who WANT TO LEARN make it worth those more experienced to want to stay and help us. So I ask, why do you belittle us? Or remind us regularly how experienced you are, if you have helped me I remember those of you who know what your talking about. To down us for just starting out I'd say - remember where you started, maybe a site like this would have helped you. Also I don't know enough about any fish to advise, I do know my experiences and feel it's okay to share that as long as the OP knows it was my case 1 time deal.
For those who have msg me and said it's members like me that make the site worth while, I only wish the "seasoned" members felt the same. I have counted on you folks many times, but am seriously considering moving on, and hoping for the best. I've learned so much from some of you. To share a bit about me, I've been told how dumb I am enough by my ex to last a life time, I don't need or want it from people who are here and claim to want to help. Either help or don't.
If you feel I posted a comment you feel is out of line msg me, don't retaliate by bashing me here. My intention is to hurt no one! I know you've seen me say that too.
I thank and applaud the few who took the time to msg me last night. It means a lot to me, knowing those with experience feel I too have valid points.
I would like to stay and continue with AA much will depend on the levels of response that comes from this thread if any or if it's even allowed to stay up I'm not sure.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

Let me start by saying I'm not sure exactly what it is you're referring to but I'll bet you're over reacting.
I'm subscribed to other boards and if I were to run away every time I got bashed (as you say), I would not belong to any of them, including AA.
Though I don't know everything about fishkeeping, I feel I'm somewhat experienced since I've been doing this for a good 35-40 years and what I can tell you is that I, along with other experienced members are very passionate about the hobby and how we do things.
Therefore some of the advice you get might not be exactly what you want to hear and I don't read every post here but I have yet to see anyone respond to another member in the fashion you have described, yes things do get heated sometimes but everyone seems to take it in stride and move on to another topic.
There's no need to take any of this stuff so personal.


Sent from my iPad using Aquarium Advice

 

[Mebbid]

It always amuses me when people say "I've had x years of experience so listen to what I say"

I'm not in the group with long term experience in the hobby. But in the time I have been in the hobby there's not a single week that goes by where I don't do some research on something. I combine that with the ability to critically think, and I feel that I have amassed a sizable amount of up to date knowledge.

Compare that with the owner of one of my lfs. He's been in the hobby for 30ish years. To that end he's fairly knowledgeable about African cichlids since he used to breed them. And he also has some knowledge about salt water. What he doesn't understand is proper management of illness and what he doesn't understand about water chemistry beyond the nitrogen cycle could fill a book. He hasn't kept up on recent research on our hobby. He manages to keep his fish reasonably healthy and is a good guy so I continue to shop there.

My point in all this is, years under your belt isn't everything in the hobby. You have to keep your knowledge current as well.

 

[amyb_70]

Let me start by saying I'm not sure exactly what it is you're referring to but I'll bet you're over reacting.
I'm subscribed to other boards and if I were to run away every time I got bashed (as you say), I would not belong to any of them, including AA.
Though I don't know everything about fishkeeping, I feel I'm somewhat experienced since I've been doing this for a good 35-40 years and what I can tell you is that I, along with other experienced members are very passionate about the hobby and how we do things.
Therefore some of the advice you get might not be exactly what you want to hear and I don't read every post here but I have yet to see anyone respond to another member in the fashion you have described, yes things do get heated sometimes but everyone seems to take it in stride and move on to another topic.
There's no need to take any of this stuff so personal.


Sent from my iPad using Aquarium Advice

I was referring to comments in a certain thread, knowingly directed at me. I'm not letting this ruin my days. I'm not sure maybe I am overreacting. I must say I am the 1st who's willing to admit I'm wrong, and I am one who is always looking for advice, better ideas and suggestions. My point here is just because I'm new doesn't mean different rules apply. If 1 can give an opinion all should be able to. I like when seasoned aquarists offer me advise as they have years of success and error under their belt.
I suppose I can't explain any better than I've tried.
Long n Short we all should be allowed to share our experience (as I've said, being new I always tell the person that, it's what I learned). We all have room to learn and if someone does know it all please contact me because I need your help.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Brookster123]

I'm with mebbib, certain members.. I'd pm a very specific question as I trust they'd have the answer, don't need opinions in the forum.. other questions are best left to the public forum for elaboration, it's how we learn.. certain members have 20+years experience in one specific aspect of the hobby while being a total noob in others.. i feel that there is a lot more knowledge and info. Available to us via the Internet and forums like this. Someone can learn a lot relatively fast of motivated. Amy.. stay

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[aqua_holic]

It always amuses me when people say "I've had x years of experience so listen to what I say"

.......

My point in all this is, years under your belt isn't everything in the hobby. You have to keep your knowledge current as well.

Time served is great and all, but it doesn't always speak to the depth or breadth of experience. Person A can keep 1 tank for 10 years and person B 10 tanks for 1 year. Assuming they are not all the same kind of tank, person B could have a great deal more experience than person A.

 

[amyb_70]

It always amuses me when people say "I've had x years of experience so listen to what I say"

I'm not in the group with long term experience in the hobby. But in the time I have been in the hobby there's not a single week that goes by where I don't do some research on something. I combine that with the ability to critically think, and I feel that I have amassed a sizable amount of up to date knowledge.

Compare that with the owner of one of my lfs. He's been in the hobby for 30ish years. To that end he's fairly knowledgeable about African cichlids since he used to breed them. And he also has some knowledge about salt water. What he doesn't understand is proper management of illness and what he doesn't understand about water chemistry beyond the nitrogen cycle could fill a book. He hasn't kept up on recent research on our hobby. He manages to keep his fish reasonably healthy and is a good guy so I continue to shop there.

My point in all this is, years under your belt isn't everything in the hobby. You have to keep your knowledge current as well.

????. I applaud you for that and agree, years is a number. Many people specialize in certain aspects of what they do for a profession. You said it best, using your lfs owner, his specialty was breeding chichlids, he knew other things but not to the extreme as breeding that fish in particular. IMO opinions matter and for those who don't agree or like then don't read. If I ask a question I accept your opinions, suggestions, experiences all I ask for is honesty when answering. Weather you learned it in 20 weeks or 20 yrs, simply say that and what's worked for you. Some call this a science, scientists learn every day, and make huge life threatening mistakes every day.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[PB_Smith]

I'm relatively new to this forum, but have 40+ years of fish experience.
The people new to the hobby asking questions I have no issue with at all and I try to provide clear and concise advice along with an explanation of why I think it is sound.
That explanation is far too often absent in the responses of some of the more established members with their advice coming off more as arrogant and condescending commands.


I do always question a person's experience and knowledge in a topic if they are proffering advice in said topic. It would be foolish not to.
Far too often upon further inquiry it becomes apparent they do not posses the knowledge or expertise to back up what they say.


It always amuses me that those who proclaim experience isn't that important are more often than not those who lack the experience in the topic.


It also seems as if there is a cadre of "acceptable" methodologies and practices here and if you do not follow them, you get ostracized by some folks.


like why did some mod delete the "cycling your tank with urine" thread? that was a real legit question and a very viable practice that has worked for numerous people.
I've done it and it worked better than other methodologies, so.....
but I guess watching a shrimp rot in an empty tank is more "politically correct" or some nonsense.

 

[Slade]

Don't leave Amy. For every question that's asked, there are a bunch of new folks that read it and learn. My advice is when asking a question give as many specific details as you can.

I've been on a lot of forums and this is one of the better ones. There will always be people talking down to others, or simply looking for an argument - they go away if you ignore them.

 

[amyb_70]

Don't leave Amy. For every question that's asked, there are a bunch of new folks that read it and learn. My advice is when asking a question give as many specific details as you can.

I've been on a lot of forums and this is one of the better ones. There will always be people talking down to others, or simply looking for an argument - they go away if you ignore them.

Thank you all for your words of encouragement.


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

 

[Mebbid]

I'm relatively new to this forum, but have 40+ years of fish experience.
The people new to the hobby asking questions I have no issue with at all and I try to provide clear and concise advice along with an explanation of why I think it is sound.
That explanation is far too often absent in the responses of some of the more established members with their advice coming off more as arrogant and condescending commands.


I do always question a person's experience and knowledge in a topic if they are proffering advice in said topic. It would be foolish not to.
Far too often upon further inquiry it becomes apparent they do not posses the knowledge or expertise to back up what they say.


It always amuses me that those who proclaim experience isn't that important are more often than not those who lack the experience in the topic.


It also seems as if there is a cadre of "acceptable" methodologies and practices here and if you do not follow them, you get ostracized by some folks.


like why did some mod delete the "cycling your tank with urine" thread? that was a real legit question and a very viable practice that has worked for numerous people.
I've done it and it worked better than other methodologies, so.....
but I guess watching a shrimp rot in an empty tank is more "politically correct" or some nonsense.

It was silly that they deleted that thread, but I guess it was a bit "crude"

I also agree 100% that explanations should be added to advice. However, after answering the same questions hundreds of times it gets really tiresome to give a full explanation every time.

 

[Tolak]

I'm one of those with 20some years of experience, 30some tanks bla bla bla. Does it make me someone special? No. Big deal, makes me no better than anyone else on this planet. I'll tell you, the longer you do this the more you realize you don't know. As was mentioned, there's specific areas folks will be quite knowledgeable about, and others they're severely lacking in. Aquatics covers such a huge span of information that there's no way you'll figure out all facets in one lifetime.

If you do understand certain facets you'll be able to explain these to someone newer in a manner that they will understand it. You should be able to explain it several different ways without coming off sounding like an ***. Newer fishkeepers are the future of this hobby, especially the younger folks, if the old timers don't do everything possible to foster the newer folks they're the ones that can be blamed for its demise.

Seeing someone start out, progress, excel, then pass me up in areas of aquatics is one of the biggest thrills for me. I feel I've added something awesome to their life, and to society in general. I now learn things from them.

 

[Brookster123]

I'm one of those with 20some years of experience, 30some tanks bla bla bla. Does it make me someone special? No. Big deal, makes me no better than anyone else on this planet. I'll tell you, the longer you do this the more you realize you don't know. As was mentioned, there's specific areas folks will be quite knowledgeable about, and others they're severely lacking in. Aquatics covers such a huge span of information that there's no way you'll figure out all facets in one lifetime.

If you do understand certain facets you'll be able to explain these to someone newer in a manner that they will understand it. You should be able to explain it several different ways without coming off sounding like an ***. Newer fishkeepers are the future of this hobby, especially the younger folks, if the old timers don't do everything possible to foster the newer folks they're the ones that can be blamed for its demise.

Seeing someone start out, progress, excel, then pass me up in areas of aquatics is one of the biggest thrills for me. I feel I've added something awesome to their life, and to society in general. I now learn things from them.

I'm an expert in wasting money on crappy lighting 30+ years of this expertise and I'll be living in a van down by the river. :hikes up pants and falls through table:

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[PB_Smith]

I'm an expert in wasting money on crappy lighting 30+ years of this expertise and I'll be living in a van down by the river. :hikes up pants and falls through table:

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Aliray]

I have no idea exactly what your post is referring to but please stay. Nobody has all the answers or knows everything about fishkeeping which is a constantly revolving and growing hobby. I am now pushing 70 and have kept fish on and off for 60 years. Does it make me an expert? absolutley not. The fish I currently keep are all ones that I had never kept before. A ton of fish have been discovered in the 60 years and a lot of "facts become outdated" in time. One for instance in my life , I started a guppy tank in a 10 gal about age 8 or 9. At that time I added gravel, left the water out to age a couple of days to remove the chlorine, added an inside corner filter with carbon on the bottom and filter floss on top attached to a very noisy little air pump Then added guppies. they all did fine for the most part. To clean the filter we dumped everything ,scrubbed it out added fresh stuff. Once a month I scrubbed the whole tank, decor and gravel. replanted the water sprite. How anything survived is beyond me but they did. The point I am making is there is more than one way to do things some work some don't. Would I do it now NO.You need to learn from others which I continue to do. Please stay. Alison