Experienced vs InExperienced

[amyb_70]

I'm one of those with 20some years of experience, 30some tanks bla bla bla. Does it make me someone special? No. Big deal, makes me no better than anyone else on this planet. I'll tell you, the longer you do this the more you realize you don't know. As was mentioned, there's specific areas folks will be quite knowledgeable about, and others they're severely lacking in. Aquatics covers such a huge span of information that there's no way you'll figure out all facets in one lifetime.

If you do understand certain facets you'll be able to explain these to someone newer in a manner that they will understand it. You should be able to explain it several different ways without coming off sounding like an ***. Newer fishkeepers are the future of this hobby, especially the younger folks, if the old timers don't do everything possible to foster the newer folks they're the ones that can be blamed for its demise.

Seeing someone start out, progress, excel, then pass me up in areas of aquatics is one of the biggest thrills for me. I feel I've added something awesome to their life, and to society in general. I now learn things from them.

AMEN!!! Thank you. From a seasoned aquarist who admits there's always more to learn. I appreciate your comment and contribution.


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[Mattfinn]

You can only learn and gain a better understanding if you keep yourself open to learning and don't get stuck in your ways a problem that I find people often get stuck in, in just ordinary life.

On another note I recently saw a post on the fishlore forum of a person claiming "to keep fishes since 5 years"...who had recently got a 20gal am stocked it with 2 blue gouramis, 2 bala Sharks, 2 rams and a pleco...asking people how often to change water and how much water. When people replied stating the obvious about the stocking. The member answered back with "CAN YOU SUGGEST ANY GOOD CLEANING METHOD".

I just find it ironic after reading your post which I completely agree with and I think I've learnt more then ever in the last 7-8 months I've been a member here just from reading along some member's tank builds. Now I've got enough knowledge to help others out
keep positive you'll only end up being better off from sticking around.

 

[ppo8820]

The biggest issue I have come across on the internet in general is that anyone can share their opinion, and its not always right. There is so much conflicting information on any given topic, it can be maddening.

For example, you look up "I have a stomach ache" and you get tons of people who have good knowledge and can help with quick home remedies or advice, but you also get those certain doom-loving individuals who say stuff like "My aunt had that and she died the next night in her sleep", or " You need to go to the doctor ASAP as its probably a tumor". Now, in all the great answers, those two idiotic answers stick out the most and cause panic and confusion. This is an example, but you get what I am saying.

I think being online for so long, like many novices on here, can make you jaded or make it appear you are aloof or not interested in repeating yourself to every newbie who pops up on here. Many people have probably told the same advice 100s of times and just do not want to do it anymore. That can come off rude, but in reality they are just not interested in repeating themselves over and over. Its sucks for the newbies, but it is what it is.

There is also that whole mind set of "Oh ive been there done that, so I am higher up than you" which is human nature. It happens in every aspect of life and can be unfortunate to deal with. Its like when you hear a song and love it, then 2 moths later your friend asks if you heard their new favorite song, which is the song you were into 2 months ago. You feel better then them or more entitled because, hey, you found the song first. Im not sure why we do this as humans, but we do.

That being said, I still enjoy this forum, but I do have to dig a bit for useful information through all the rubbish. Hang in there.

 

[Fishobsessed7]

keep positive you'll only end up being better off from sticking around.

I agree 10001%


Fishobsessed7

 

[Andy Sager]

A while back I made a comment in a post which suggested one ask " What qualifies someone posting to make the post?" When I first came to AA, I would read a number of threads and was horrified by the obvious incorrect information that was being issued in regards to fish keeping. When I tried to correct these posts, I was bombarded with quotes from internet sites that too, had the misinformation posted. So the snowball is now started and continues to grow. But here's the thing, if misinformation is heard by 1000 people and those 1000 people tell another 1000 people making it now 1 million people who have heard the misinformation, does it make the misinformation the truth? That's the danger of misinformation and often, not always but often, opinions here seem to be based on misinformation.

There is more than one way to keep a fish tank "correctly." However, there are certain things that, no matter what, are incorrect. So how do we know what is what? A couple of years back I started a new business which meant I needed to learn new tactics and methods which meant I needed to go back to school. One of the first things we were taught was "The best way to get to where you want to go is to follow someone who has been where you want to go." This reminded me of why I came to AA in the first place. I have been involved in almost every aspect of tropical fish keeping. In fact I couldn't list all I've done in my bio for lack of allowed space. And what better way to serve the hobby than to share all that knowledge?
As I've seen posted before, fish keeping is not based on opinions but on certain sciences that have been discovered to keep the animals in the best way possible. Newer methods might be discovered ( Think about how different public zoos are now from 30-40 years ago) but, from what I have seen and read, most new ways all have the same underlying purpose: to keep the fish in the best health possible. Some of us have transitioned from inside corner filters to undergravel filters to ridged undergravel filters to outside HOB style filters ( air driven and magnet driven) to canister filters to wet/ dry filters to now sand bed filters but the end purpose is all the same. You might have an opinion on which type of filter is better yet some of us have successfully kept fish with all these types of filters so is it right to state an opinion that one type is wrong and another is right? Again, as previously stated, how you ( the collective you not the singular you) word your opinion is vital to it's importance and how it is received.

Re this comment you made: although your experienced/ professional whatever it may be I think it is safe to say you did Not start with the 20, 30, 40 + years experience ya all speak of.One of the biggest differences between those starting today and those of us who started years ago is that what we had years ago were pet stores who made their living from keeping these pets alive and in good shape. In some cases, they were learning just as we hobbyists were. It was a hobby and as such, those in it were in it as hobbyists. Our sources for our knowledge were those with the experience whether short term or long. Most of us back then, at least those I was associated with, were sponges for the knowledge. Many things were new experiences. Rare fish were a novelty and drooled over by us hobbyists. Now, it's hard to find a rare fish in a store. Now it's hard to find stores where the fish are not considered disposable and "lost leaders" to get you into the store. It's a sad state but that's what has happened. Today's hobbyist is at a disadvantage for sure. Today's fish are not like the fish of yesteryear. They are, in many cases, shadows of their ancestors. So NO, we didn't have the experience then, but we have it now so why not learn from it?

There are some of us on here that really do want to help and help those with less experience keep a nice tank for their enjoyment. There is nothing more satisfying in this hobby, in my opinion , than losing a fish to old age ( grey scales as we used to call it.) Second, for me, is having the same fish's bloodline continuing years later through breeding programs. As you may have read, I am now in possession of fish for my hatchery that are descendants of fish I bred over 20 years ago. How special is that? That's what this hobby can be when you get the experience. That's my opinion of course.

So is the issue really inexperienced vs experienced or opinions vs facts? As I've stated before, we are all entitled to our opinions but I ask, how can one form an intelligent opinion if they don't have the facts? Hopefully, they come to sites such as this and learn them from those with the experience and share the facts, not their opinions.

Hope this helps

 

[aqua_chem]

So is the issue really inexperienced vs experienced or opinions vs facts? As I've stated before, we are all entitled to our opinions but I ask, how can one form an intelligent opinion if they don't have the facts? Hopefully, they come to sites such as this and learn them from those with the experience and share the facts, not their opinions.

I think that the problem that you run into more often is people, at any level of experience, that have difficulty differentiating what they think, what they know, and what they feel, and presenting it as such and in an appropriate venue. The problem with a lot of people that hang their hat on XX years of experience is that they often think a lot, but know surprisingly little. They often have explanations for why they think what they do, but they don't actually know if what they think is right. For instance, the idea of high phosphate causing algae was held as gospel for decades, but we now know that high phosphate levels are relatively innocuous for algae because we can apply ideas like Liebig's Law to disprove it. Similarly, certain pockets of people still think that adding salt to a tropical aquarium somehow promotes salt, even though we know enough about fish physiology to know that it doesn't really make much sense in most circumstance.

One of the biggest differences between those starting today and those of us who started years ago is that what we had years ago were pet stores who made their living from keeping these pets alive and in good shape. In some cases, they were learning just as we hobbyists were. It was a hobby and as such, those in it were in it as hobbyists. Our sources for our knowledge were those with the experience whether short term or long. Most of us back then, at least those I was associated with, were sponges for the knowledge. Many things were new experiences. Rare fish were a novelty and drooled over by us hobbyists. Now, it's hard to find a rare fish in a store. Now it's hard to find stores where the fish are not considered disposable and "lost leaders" to get you into the store. It's a sad state but that's what has happened. Today's hobbyist is at a disadvantage for sure. Today's fish are not like the fish of yesteryear. They are, in many cases, shadows of their ancestors. So NO, we didn't have the experience then, but we have it now so why not learn from it?

Yea, but now we've got Google, Amazon, and forums like this, so I would say we're better equipped than our predecessors ever were.

 

[Tolak]

As mentioned, it's not just time doing something, it's what you do with that time. It's like the story of the two guys going into high school, both plan on trying out for the basketball team. First guy has an older brother, plays with him & his buddies, some of whom are on the varsity team, for 3 hours daily. Second guy practices for 8 hours daily, by himself, granny shots over his head. Who has a better chance of making the team?

I started out with an 11 year old daughter who wanted fish, and a 10 gallon tank. She's 34 now, so it's been a while. After about 6 years my Dad "inherited" a 55 gallon tank from a guy that got evicted in his building. Living down the block maintenance was on me, no biggie, but started looking into things a bit more seriously. A few years later he went into a nursing home, tank came here. I ran into a guy involved with the local club. I just went from granny shot guy to playing with the big boys.

I think that's what Andy is getting at, with following someone who has been where you want to go. You'd be amazed at how many folks are out there who do the many tank fishroom breeding selling buying researching thing, but won't be bothered to correspond with what they know or do online. Value the ones that do bother to, that type of resource takes some work to find offline.

 

[Caliban07]

I've struggled with this a few times on this forum. A few weeks back a presented my opinion on what I believe is a totally optional strategy with no obligation to carry it out. Both aspects have pros and cons and it depends on the individual's circumstance whether or not to proceed. I was told I was giving bad advice "probably better to give no advice than bad advice" then I was unloaded with years experience and number of tanks talk. I even got a story about when someone met such an editor from such a magazine and had a right old chinwag in the subject...that's when I switch off. It seems that some people with larger amounts of experience can't help but bring it out every time they are trying to prove a point.

Having said that, Andy is right. It's the subject that gets me. There are subjects in fish keeping that are gospel but there are many that are optional. Cycling a fish tank is gospel, how you do it is optional. If someone said you really must cycle the tank it's incorrect not too then that is feasible. If someone said that you must cycle the tank fishless then we all know that that is not correct. Now if someone said 'in my opinion I cycle the tank without fish because.........but some people choose to do it with fish'. How much better does that sound? How less arrogant is that? How less condescending is that? Now if I added another three ??? On the end of my question, how does that make my question sound? Rude? Like I am shouting?

Unfortunately we cannot use body language or tone of voice on a forum like this. Words, grammar, punctuation are all very important aspects of written communication. I think a lot of things boil down to that.

You can still tell a great deal about someone's level experience by what they type. I've seen threads where people ask why there plants are dying and it's clear they have literally just added them to water and nothing else and you get the response. 'Whats your glut dosing' and I'm like seriously?

There is a lot to learn from people with experience and I always listen to their advice carefully. These are the people who have seen things change and made the mistakes so we don't have to. Its natural for someone protect the preachings of yesteryear. But I have noticed that some experienced members like to share what they did right rather than what they have done wrong.

Fish keeping has advanced and is advancing all the time whether we like it or not. IMO we are in a better place to learn now than we ever could have been. And we are always learning.

You can tell when a newbie isn't listening to your advice. There's nothing you can do. Cut your losses and move on.

I think someone should write an info board that dispels myths and none truths or just owns up to the fact that we are not sure. 'Most bacteria lives in the filter' no 'most of it lives in the substrate and in the walls' well actually we just don't really know let's admit it.

We could also have links to scientific papers that have been Proven to dispel myths and rumours. I think that would be really neat and help quell the regurgitated non facts that are sometimes found on the net. This would benefit the community greatly.


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[Delapool]

Links would help but I suspect we would then argue about which server has the fastest links or something. Just a suspicion

Generally I think there is experience, inexperience, the herd mentality and the outliers. A wide range.

We are part vet, part chemist, part gardener and part zoo-keeper. Another wide range.

So someone may be experienced in say water chemistry but not so much on diseases as they just never needed to.

Imo the OP of a thread should be congratulated for posting. It may be sharing an experience, asking a question or just pushing the envelope. To share that with us is I think a fine thing. There is no obligation to agree of course.

So we're not going to agree amongst ourselves on everything. We should expect that. Post and move on. However this is hard. I know myself. It's human nature to dwell on these things. Was the post a direct attack or simply very short. Would you be happy to say a post to your mum / have a potential employer read it or not? It doesn't need to be your post, can be others as well.

If in doubt, why not contact a mod? This what they are (un)paid to do I believe. One of the reasons I stick with this forum is I know some of the people and the way they approach fish-keeping. I may not agree or use the same approach but I can appreciate it and adapt it to suit myself. Sometimes improvement, sometimes oops, there was a reason that was said. If you reach the point where nothing is being learnt or we can't appreciate a posted comment or are just plain reduced to arguing amongst ourselves then it is time to move on.

Preferably over to the unhealthy fish section where there is enough weird and wonderful to keep anyone interested.

Ps - still open on the salt dosing thing for FW. Think I'll give that another decade to make up my mind.

 

[Brookster123]

Why oh why did I pick this thread to drink coffee too.. owwwwww my brain... Andy, excellent post per usual, I have this great memory of going to this lfs with my dad when when I was 14, we had a 29 gal. Had everything in it.. anyways.. this place was magical.. hundreds of tanks. 100 ' s of fish.. place is gone now.. luckily I have a couple more available. I literally wouldn't be in the hobby if I hadn't stumbled into uncle Ned's that faithful night.. sold me an apisto and 5 hex. Barbs for my brand new 5 gal hex but I digress.... aquachem nailed it.. i will google anything and everything before bringing it to post, usually pass the first couple hits and dive deep into the internet for treasure troves of knowledge that lay buried deep beneath the bs.. it's out there, I'm not always very patient, for me to rely on a thread getting* (getto bf-autccorrect gold) answered would probably drive me insane most of the time, I work like that too, if someone of little skill and strength is the only one available that day I just assume go it alone.. same with this hobby! Loving life.. go pats!!!

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[Linwood]

I think someone should write an info board that dispels myths and none truths or just owns up to the fact that we are not sure. 'Most bacteria lives in the filter' no 'most of it lives in the substrate and in the walls' well actually we just don't really know let's admit it.

And recently (for freshwater) that the primary culprit isn't Bacteria at all but Archaea. "Truth" remains a fluid concept whenever a statement is applied globally.

I honestly believe we are developing a whole new and largely unrecognized talent in today's connected society, one for filtering and evaluating a flood of information as we drink from the fire-hoses of the internet.

Some are better than others. But in coming generations (of humans, anyway), it will become a survival skill, just wait and see.

 

[Aces1980]

Hey Amy

Don't leave. I have found many myself on this site that thinks they know it all. I barely get involved anymore tired myself of hearing so much crap I got this years and so on. Yeah so what. Situation are always different never the same. That why I always said I give my opinion you can do things out of the box but it's not for everyone. Like most on here if they only step back and look at what they do by adding so much crap like chemicals and things they would realize most can be treated without. So many on here first thing ask what's your water chemistry really back in the days their was no testing for most of this crap I just use to doing it old way without testing I usually always see a sign something is wrong and act on that and end a problem with good results. Amy don't leave hang in their like me I also always said send me a message gladly help you with what I know to many put their 2 cents were it shouldn't be. Don't get me wrong others do have experience also but most others don't know crap only what they bring up on google yeah wow that's a lot of experience.

So dust your shoulder off don't leave


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[Andy Sager]

I think that the problem that you run into more often is people, at any level of experience, that have difficulty differentiating what they think, what they know, and what they feel, and presenting it as such and in an appropriate venue. The problem with a lot of people that hang their hat on XX years of experience is that they often think a lot, but know surprisingly little. They often have explanations for why they think what they do, but they don't actually know if what they think is right. For instance, the idea of high phosphate causing algae was held as gospel for decades, but we now know that high phosphate levels are relatively innocuous for algae because we can apply ideas like Liebig's Law to disprove it. Similarly, certain pockets of people still think that adding salt to a tropical aquarium somehow promotes salt, even though we know enough about fish physiology to know that it doesn't really make much sense in most circumstance.

Yea, but now we've got Google, Amazon, and forums like this, so I would say we're better equipped than our predecessors ever were.

I agree, which is why, when I first started posting on AA, I was talking from my older experience. Some of which, still is as valid today as it was 30 years ago. But then I started keeping the fish again just so that I COULD be current with what was going on in today's hobby. So I am not speaking all from the past, I am in the present. Yes, many "gospel truths" have been dispelled...thankfully and learning should never stop. That's when you atrophy. I don't claim to know it all, but I have experienced a lot. Good and bad. That's what I try to share.

Re your comment: "Yea, but now we've got Google, Amazon, and forums like this, so I would say we're better equipped than our predecessors ever were." let me ask you this, Would you rather learn from someone who has actually kept a particular fish or animal or from an article on how to keep that animal or fish? I know from experience, not all critters "read the book." So is somewhere like Amazon or Google really better than someone who has kept that specie multiple times, successfully or unsuccessfully? Just curious......

 

[Andy Sager]

I think that the problem that you run into more often is people, at any level of experience, that have difficulty differentiating what they think, what they know, and what they feel, and presenting it as such and in an appropriate venue. The problem with a lot of people that hang their hat on XX years of experience is that they often think a lot, but know surprisingly little. They often have explanations for why they think what they do, but they don't actually know if what they think is right. For instance, the idea of high phosphate causing algae was held as gospel for decades, but we now know that high phosphate levels are relatively innocuous for algae because we can apply ideas like Liebig's Law to disprove it.

And here is exactly why I question the internet as being the better option to gain your information. I just did a search " Phosphate's effects on algae in aquariums" and came up with these articles that might interest you:
Phosphates in the Aquarium

Phosphates in the aquarium

Phosphates in Freshwater Aquariums

Phosphates in Your Saltwater Aquarium

Not 1 or 2 or 3 but 4 articles that say Phosphate contribute to algae in aquariums with high phosphate levels causing blooms. And this was just on the first page of the search. There were at least 5 other pages I didn;t bother to go to. So who is correct here? You or all the articles? How is a newbie to know? Are you giving misinformation or are these articles? How are we to know? What's worse is I noticed one of the articles was dated 12/14/14 so it's not an old article. Maybe the ability to have so much info is not the best? TMI if you will If we used localized info by local experienced aquarists, would we be better off? At least that way we would be dealing with similar waters and the effects on those waters where an international forum leads to input and opinions based on their local water that isn;t the same as , for example, my water.

I'm not arguing here. I'm just sayin'....... it could make you go

 

[aqua_holic]

Amazon??

 

[aqua_chem]

Re your comment: "Yea, but now we've got Google, Amazon, and forums like this, so I would say we're better equipped than our predecessors ever were." let me ask you this, Would you rather learn from someone who has actually kept a particular fish or animal or from an article on how to keep that animal or fish? I know from experience, not all critters "read the book." So is somewhere like Amazon or Google really better than someone who has kept that specie multiple times, successfully or unsuccessfully? Just curious......

And here is exactly why I question the internet as being the better option to gain your information. I just did a search " Phosphate's effects on algae in aquariums" and came up with these articles that might interest you:

*links were here*

Not 1 or 2 or 3 but 4 articles that say Phosphate contribute to algae in aquariums with high phosphate levels causing blooms. And this was just on the first page of the search. There were at least 5 other pages I didn;t bother to go to. So who is correct here? You or all the articles? How is a newbie to know? Are you giving misinformation or are these articles? How are we to know? What's worse is I noticed one of the articles was dated 12/14/14 so it's not an old article. Maybe the ability to have so much info is not the best? TMI if you will If we used localized info by local experienced aquarists, would we be better off? At least that way we would be dealing with similar waters and the effects on those waters where an international forum leads to input and opinions based on their local water that isn;t the same as , for example, my water.

I'm not arguing here. I'm just sayin'....... it could make you go

Internet, every time. What do you think you would get if you went to the LFS that had an old-time fishkeeper? Same thing probably. At the sake of sounding full of myself, I've personally never met someone that was on a similar level at a LFS with regards to plants or water chemistry, but I know where to look on the internet for that kind of advice. So I guess I would addend my previous statement to using google *well*.

For example, plug something like "freshwater algae phosphate" into google and you get a bunch of crap. But that's like, in my opinion, going to petco and asking about it; you get such a hodgepodge of opinions and no coherent logic to any of it. If instead you do something like "sitelantedtank.net phosphate algae", you get this thread, which has a very cogent discussion about phosphate (if you can get past Tom Barr's socratic method-style of teaching). It's all about sourcing your information.

As far as fish goes, an experienced person is nice, but once again, it's just one data point. I can spend an hour on google looking at more reputable sites and get dozens of experiences on obscure fish, and hundreds on any given mainstream species, whereas if I were going on spoken word only, it would be such a crapshoot if my LFS sources had any experience with that species. There is something to be said for the sheer number of opinions you can get readily, especially if you're the kind of person that has a nose for bull and can shift through them to find the good ones.

As always, single opinion < group consensus < expert consensus < actual data < peer reviewed research, and you can't really get any of that from a single dude at a LFS.

Amazon??

You realize you can get basically any medication overnighted to your door? Or a gallon of glut in two days? Basically any niche equipment is available somewhere online and can be expedited to you in 2-3 days consistently. It's the golden age.

 

[aqua_holic]

Yes, I buy almost everything on amazon. It seemed to me (and Andy based on the context of his post you've quoted above) that you were talking about information, not products. Thanks for clarifying. Carry on

 

[Caliban07]

Re your comment: "Yea, but now we've got Google, Amazon, and forums like this, so I would say we're better equipped than our predecessors ever were." let me ask you this, Would you rather learn from someone who has actually kept a particular fish or animal or from an article on how to keep that animal or fish? I know from experience, not all critters "read the book." So is somewhere like Amazon or Google really better than someone who has kept that specie multiple times, successfully or unsuccessfully? Just curious......

I don't think it's a question of 'would you rather' or 'is it better'. Thankfully we don't really need to answer these kind of questions anymore because we are fortunate to have the best of BOTH worlds in today's hobby.

it doesn't really take a great deal of work to weed out the bad stuff and draw our own conclusions because of the very fact that we can either reinforce or negate what we have gathered from the web by drawing on experience. I do this all the time.

Science would never move forward if we just followed the practices of previous generations. There is still a lot to discover.

Make no mistake, considering the experience of others who have been down the road before is a very valuable asset to have but it is not the ONLY way to work.

Fish keeping is so diverse it's not even funny...


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[Gsdsar]

Not sure what is considered a newbie in this hobby. I have 4 tanks. I have lots to learn. I am fairly new, 2 years, back into this hobby. Doing things very different than I did when I was younger.

I don't post a lot in this forum. Because I don't feel that I have anything worth while to contribute. Aside from, do a water change, your tank is overstocked yada yada.

I don't have high tech tanks. I don't breed fish, I don't even call my fish by their scientific names. They have actual names, Joe, orangeboy, felicity, I can't name half the plants in my tanks. But they are all alive, they are all growing. So I guess I am not doing something toooo wrong. But still not much to contribute.

I recently posted a basic thread, help with fish in cycling. I have done it before, but needed some reassurance. I got nothing but helpful advice. And it's working.

I am a moderator on another pet related board. And I get sick if the same questions by newbies over and over and over again. Use the search function people. But then I come here, and post on a topic that I am positive has been posted about 1000s of times. And I thank those that helped instead of being rude.

People forget that there are people behind the words. The internet gives people the power to say things that they would never say to someone's face. It is also easy to regurgitate information without having used said info yourself. It's the internet.

So stay or leave. That's up to you. Either you get the information and camaraderie from the board you seek, or you don't. In the end it's up to you. If you want reassurance and acceptance and sunshine blown up your fanny, and people are willing to do that, cool. But again, in the end, it's all you.




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[Andy Sager]

Okay. Maybe I didn't express correctly how the confusion and contradictory information is rampant on the internet. What I showed you here was exactly that. These articles clearly contradict what you wrote, Aqua_Chem. While I want to believe everything on here is the truth, how am I, Joe I never kept a tank before and want to learn, supposed to know what or who's advice to follow? If I have someone at a shop, doing it, telling me what they are doing that produced the results I see, at least I have proof that what was being said works. That was the old Mom & Pop shops in most cases. You can only find the information on the internet that you ask for. But what if you don't know what to ask or how to ask it? I got those articles by asking google a question along the lines that you had mentioned in your post. So did I not ask the right question? I don't think so. I was very clear what information I wanted. So now I have multiple sources of info saying you are wrong. How can I believe that you know more than they do?
Maybe I still have that retailer's mindset of wanting to help all my customers, new and old, and not have them losing their fish and leaving the hobby? It's why I fight so hard for the guy or girl just starting. If they can make idiot proof cameras and TV sets, why can't they make the same for fish tanks?