Chrostonchap
Aquarium Advice Apprentice
I tried pre-soaked driftwood didn't like the colour it turned my water...
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First time setup - Lets try not to kill these fishes!
- Thread starter The Editor
- Start date
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yes, boiling the DW will speed it up. it may not ever stop leeching tannins though. it may be something you have to live with if you want to keep the piece. there are ways to clear up the water, however. some extra filter floss in the filter can help, also using carbon in your filter helps. just replace the carbon monthly to keep it "fresh". the tannins will not hurt anything. the only thing it may do is lower the pH (which normally isn't a big deal because more times than not, pH is on the higher side from the tap anyway)
The Editor, I have to thank you for this thread, and the great questions you asked. I know there were some that I also had, and I'm sure others here can say the same. I also enjoyed simply reading through such a technical and methodical approach to going about your first aquarium experience!
If you do decide to go with bio additives I would love to hear about your experience. After reading this thread I know I don't have to ask you to include specifics, such as brand, etc.
If you do decide to go with bio additives I would love to hear about your experience. After reading this thread I know I don't have to ask you to include specifics, such as brand, etc.
BigJim
Aquarium Advice Addict
When I added a big piece of mopani wood to my 29g, activated carbon cleared up the tannins in a hurry. I ran an AC70 bag of carbon in the AC70 filter for a few weeks and that's all it took.
OP
OP
The Editor
Aquarium Advice Activist
I'm glad you've enjoyed it!
I used to post very regularly on the forums for an IT shop I use, and from having seen the other side of how forums work I know how frustrating it can be when people don't give enough details or make assumptions etc..
So I'll saturate you with everything I know, and ask everything I dont
I managed a little pasta related accident yesterday in the kitchen (left it boiling and forgot to check, 30 mins later I've filled the downstairs with smoke), so I think I'll avoid boiling for the moment... should I be concerned that the wood will become logged with tap water, hence logged with the chlorine and chloramines that we don't like? Or could I just splash a little extra Aquasafe in when the wood makes its way to the tank?
The wood is living in a bucket in the bathroom, getting a bi-daily water change, always topping up with hot water... I'll leave it like this until either the cycle completes or the wood stops leaching, whichever comes first...
I would run a carbon filter, apart from two issues I have. Firstly there are no active carbon inserts for my filter (Fluval U1) only foam pads, secondly I read that the carbon needs to be changed fairly regularly as it becomes saturated and ineffective.. I'd rather avoid this cost for now..
Though some people have funny methods or speeding up the leaching process... Some say add salt to the water the wood is sat in, makes sense but will result in salty wood... Others say add baking soda to the water.... I even read someone swearing by soaking the wood in chlorine based bleach?!?!?!
I think I'll ignore the last option entirely, and avoid the previous two unless you lot advise me otherwise... Warm water is working for the moment..
Has anyone else used the Fluval U1? Im thinking it would be possible to modify the filter... Maybe keep a thin section of the filter pad at the bottom to stop particles clogging the impeller, then pile up active carbon and filter floss on top...
I know this may be a long shot.. But if anyone on these forums just happens to be in the UK in the Bath/Bristol area, I'd love to steal a handfull of gravel to kick start things....
jsoong
Aquarium Advice Addict
Chloramines lasts only a few weeks & naturally break down, so it is not necessary to dechlorinate your soak water for the driftwood. You can hasten the breakdown of chloramines with bright sunlight. <Ponds in bright light don't need dechlor, as long as you let it sit in the sun for a week or so.>
For an indoor tank, I would soak the wood till ready, then use a double dose of dechlor for the last soak.
I have always use just hot water for driftwood. <Use boiling water in an insulated container (eg a cooler) and you get almost the same effect as boiling the wood itself.> It really depends on how impatient you are ... the more water changes & the hotter the water, the faster things will proceed. I have heard of people using bleach or salt. Salt is safe enough to use, and won't cause problem if you soak the wood with fresh water to remove the salt afterward. I am a bit leery of bleach ... as residues will kill your filter bacteria. It is possible to get rid of bleach ... with lots of rinsing, dechlor, light & airing out for a week or so .... but one can never be totally sure of removing all bleach in a porous material ... so I usually only bleach non-porous stuff. If I were to use bleach on driftwood, I would be sure to boil it afterward to make sure all bleach is destroyed. But bleach is the fastest way to remove tannins .... whether the slight risk of contamination is worth this is up to you.
I normally don't use carbon in my tank unless I am removing something (like meds). If you have room in the filter, you can DIY a carbon filter easy enough by filling a new panty-hose leg (or buy a mesh bag from the fish store ... but panties are cheaper!) with some carbon & tying it into a little package. Put it in the water path & you are done. Some have use the carbon bag in the tank near the filter outflow if there is no room in the filter, but this is unsightly & less effective.
Your U1 is an internal, so you prob don't have as much room as a HOB ... but you can experiment if you like. <OTOH, if you can get most of the tannins out with pre-soaking, this is prob. the easiest solution.>
For an indoor tank, I would soak the wood till ready, then use a double dose of dechlor for the last soak.
I have always use just hot water for driftwood. <Use boiling water in an insulated container (eg a cooler) and you get almost the same effect as boiling the wood itself.> It really depends on how impatient you are ... the more water changes & the hotter the water, the faster things will proceed. I have heard of people using bleach or salt. Salt is safe enough to use, and won't cause problem if you soak the wood with fresh water to remove the salt afterward. I am a bit leery of bleach ... as residues will kill your filter bacteria. It is possible to get rid of bleach ... with lots of rinsing, dechlor, light & airing out for a week or so .... but one can never be totally sure of removing all bleach in a porous material ... so I usually only bleach non-porous stuff. If I were to use bleach on driftwood, I would be sure to boil it afterward to make sure all bleach is destroyed. But bleach is the fastest way to remove tannins .... whether the slight risk of contamination is worth this is up to you.
I normally don't use carbon in my tank unless I am removing something (like meds). If you have room in the filter, you can DIY a carbon filter easy enough by filling a new panty-hose leg (or buy a mesh bag from the fish store ... but panties are cheaper!) with some carbon & tying it into a little package. Put it in the water path & you are done. Some have use the carbon bag in the tank near the filter outflow if there is no room in the filter, but this is unsightly & less effective.
Your U1 is an internal, so you prob don't have as much room as a HOB ... but you can experiment if you like. <OTOH, if you can get most of the tannins out with pre-soaking, this is prob. the easiest solution.>
OP
OP
The Editor
Aquarium Advice Activist
I think I'll avoid adatives for now then.. I'm in no hurry to get it in place while I wait for the tank to cycle.
I had a day off of lectures yesterday so in between cleaning the house I boiled the wood for a few hours.. Changing the water every half hour or so... Got through about 10 large pans of water... I can't quite believe how much of this stuff there is in the wood!
Logs have returned to the bucket in the bathroom now for the day... They'll stay there until I have a day to supervise them in the kitchen again.
Yea there's not much room in the filter, just a fitted foam block...
I'll just soak as much as I can until the tank is ready, then give them a final boil and drop them in the tank.. If they turn the water tea coloured too quickly I'll experiment with carbon then I guess..
One more quick Q, one of the lumps of wood insists on floating just under the surface of the water. I've had it pinned down using a lump of granite to try and thoroughly water log it, but it's still floating... Has anyone else had a troublesome floater? How long does it take to become saturated fully?
Also, I was thinking the tannins are difusing out of the log through the external surface of the log. If I could increas the surface area that should increase the leaching rate.
I know how I want the logs positioned in the tank, so I'm thinking I may experiment with drilling from the bottom of the log into the center. I'm thinking this may speed up the diffusion rate from the center of the log, also the hole could provide an anchor point to hold the logs down and steady if they're still to bouyant for me...
Just need to get hold of a drill
I had a day off of lectures yesterday so in between cleaning the house I boiled the wood for a few hours.. Changing the water every half hour or so... Got through about 10 large pans of water... I can't quite believe how much of this stuff there is in the wood!
Logs have returned to the bucket in the bathroom now for the day... They'll stay there until I have a day to supervise them in the kitchen again.
Yea there's not much room in the filter, just a fitted foam block...
I'll just soak as much as I can until the tank is ready, then give them a final boil and drop them in the tank.. If they turn the water tea coloured too quickly I'll experiment with carbon then I guess..
One more quick Q, one of the lumps of wood insists on floating just under the surface of the water. I've had it pinned down using a lump of granite to try and thoroughly water log it, but it's still floating... Has anyone else had a troublesome floater? How long does it take to become saturated fully?
Also, I was thinking the tannins are difusing out of the log through the external surface of the log. If I could increas the surface area that should increase the leaching rate.
I know how I want the logs positioned in the tank, so I'm thinking I may experiment with drilling from the bottom of the log into the center. I'm thinking this may speed up the diffusion rate from the center of the log, also the hole could provide an anchor point to hold the logs down and steady if they're still to bouyant for me...
Just need to get hold of a drill
BigJim
Aquarium Advice Addict
It can take several weeks for a piece of wood to sink. I had that problem with a piece of mopani, so I stuck it in a bucket of water next to the tank. It sunk after a couple weeks.
You really can't increase the surface area of the wood without cutting it. Fasten the wood together with stainless screws. You can also fasten stone or plexiglas to the wood the same way.
You really can't increase the surface area of the wood without cutting it. Fasten the wood together with stainless screws. You can also fasten stone or plexiglas to the wood the same way.
OP
OP
The Editor
Aquarium Advice Activist
Drilling holes would increase surface area... Small diameter (2-4mm) highly packed holes would increase the surface area hugely... As well as physically remove some of the material containing the tannin..
Correctly planned I reckon I could reduce the density of wood in the core by a third to maybe half of what it is now... Providing the holes are large enough to allow water to easily flood them it shouldn't largely affect the bouyancy.... and it wouldn't necessarily spoil the appearance from the angle I plan to view it from..
However, as mentioned, I have no drill!
So... assuming the wood will remain untouched in my bucket for now...
Lets talk condensation trays
Who uses them? How important would you say they are? Is there a particularly effective surface pattern that is employed? How high above water level? Is feeding an issue? Would anyone advise for/against a DIY condensation tray made from a plain sheet of cut acrylic?
Correctly planned I reckon I could reduce the density of wood in the core by a third to maybe half of what it is now... Providing the holes are large enough to allow water to easily flood them it shouldn't largely affect the bouyancy.... and it wouldn't necessarily spoil the appearance from the angle I plan to view it from..
However, as mentioned, I have no drill!
So... assuming the wood will remain untouched in my bucket for now...
Lets talk condensation trays
Who uses them? How important would you say they are? Is there a particularly effective surface pattern that is employed? How high above water level? Is feeding an issue? Would anyone advise for/against a DIY condensation tray made from a plain sheet of cut acrylic?
BigJim
Aquarium Advice Addict
Drilling holes will increase the surface area, but drilling a lot of holes in the wood will affect the appearance and possibly the structural integrity of the wood and I don't think you'll see much increase in the release of tannins.
I had to look up aquarium condensation trays online because I'd never heard of them before. I have glass canopies on three of my tanks. They basically do the same thing as your condensation tray, but they have a hinge so the front half opens. My 5g is an Eclipse tank and it has what I guess you could call a condensation tray, but it's custom made to fit the Eclipse hood. My 29g has a stock hood with a glass panel to protect the light and a hinged door at the front.
I'm a fan of having some kind of cover on my tanks. Any fish that swims can jump out and become rug jerky. It also cuts back on evaporation. I didn't have a lid on my 40B when I started cycling it and I was losing several gallons a day.
I had to look up aquarium condensation trays online because I'd never heard of them before. I have glass canopies on three of my tanks. They basically do the same thing as your condensation tray, but they have a hinge so the front half opens. My 5g is an Eclipse tank and it has what I guess you could call a condensation tray, but it's custom made to fit the Eclipse hood. My 29g has a stock hood with a glass panel to protect the light and a hinged door at the front.
I'm a fan of having some kind of cover on my tanks. Any fish that swims can jump out and become rug jerky. It also cuts back on evaporation. I didn't have a lid on my 40B when I started cycling it and I was losing several gallons a day.
jsoong
Aquarium Advice Addict
I would advice against drilling a lot of holes to increase the DW's surface area. Although it may theoretically speed up the water logging, the increased surface area also increase the rate of decay of the wood, so it won't last as long in your tank.
If you have a troublesome floater, the simplest fix is to affix a piece of slate to the bottom with a stainless steel screw. <You will need a drill to make a hole in the slate!> Bury the slate in the substrate & you won't know it is there.
Or you can simply wait ... although some wood species are know to take months to be water-logged.
Your condensation tray is similar to our glass lid this side of the pond. I have a set of them, and they have a hinged cover for ease of feeding. I would advise against DIY'ing a lid with plexi ... the heat from the lamp cause plexi to sag & yellow ... not a good solution. Glass is prob the best material, and people do DIY lids & stuff for the top with that. An alternative is poly-carborate ... expensive heat proof plastic.
If you have a troublesome floater, the simplest fix is to affix a piece of slate to the bottom with a stainless steel screw. <You will need a drill to make a hole in the slate!> Bury the slate in the substrate & you won't know it is there.
Or you can simply wait ... although some wood species are know to take months to be water-logged.
Your condensation tray is similar to our glass lid this side of the pond. I have a set of them, and they have a hinged cover for ease of feeding. I would advise against DIY'ing a lid with plexi ... the heat from the lamp cause plexi to sag & yellow ... not a good solution. Glass is prob the best material, and people do DIY lids & stuff for the top with that. An alternative is poly-carborate ... expensive heat proof plastic.
OP
OP
The Editor
Aquarium Advice Activist
Ah good point, I'd not thought about decay! I'll anchor it with rock it its still causing problems later...
Ok so I'll avoid plexi. Though I've found a cheap cool running lighting solution.... NEON!!
Go the idea from my old PC modding days, I'll be using CCFL light tubes meant as PC bling. I bought a 2x12" kit the other day (£5 for the pair), broke one tube before I'd even unpacked it (Doh!), so just fixed in the one, but it kicked out a lot of light and filled the tank nicely... Now I have another 5 tubes available to me, so I'll set about wiring them up etc and sealing the voltage converters with silicone to keep them dry etc... Once I've figured out a way of doing it nice and neatly I may do a build log of the custom lighting... Though I'm finding out the hard way, electronic work is significantly harder when you're trying to solder using a blowtorch, you have no crimping tools, and no heatshrink tubing...
I've found a retailer on eBay selling a large range of sheet sizes at different thickness's at what I believe are very reasonable prices.. I've messaged them to ask if they could cut me a custom size and cut out a section I could hinge as a flap, but if all goes well I may use them again as part of the lighting build..
Anyone got advice on thickness of poly sheet to be using?? The support lips a at the top of my tank can only be 8-9 inches apart so I wouldn't have thought it'd need be much more than 1-2mm thick...
Ok so I'll avoid plexi. Though I've found a cheap cool running lighting solution.... NEON!!
Go the idea from my old PC modding days, I'll be using CCFL light tubes meant as PC bling. I bought a 2x12" kit the other day (£5 for the pair), broke one tube before I'd even unpacked it (Doh!), so just fixed in the one, but it kicked out a lot of light and filled the tank nicely... Now I have another 5 tubes available to me, so I'll set about wiring them up etc and sealing the voltage converters with silicone to keep them dry etc... Once I've figured out a way of doing it nice and neatly I may do a build log of the custom lighting... Though I'm finding out the hard way, electronic work is significantly harder when you're trying to solder using a blowtorch, you have no crimping tools, and no heatshrink tubing...
I've found a retailer on eBay selling a large range of sheet sizes at different thickness's at what I believe are very reasonable prices.. I've messaged them to ask if they could cut me a custom size and cut out a section I could hinge as a flap, but if all goes well I may use them again as part of the lighting build..
Anyone got advice on thickness of poly sheet to be using?? The support lips a at the top of my tank can only be 8-9 inches apart so I wouldn't have thought it'd need be much more than 1-2mm thick...
OP
OP
The Editor
Aquarium Advice Activist
Well I bit the bullet...
Poped into my LFS today and picked up a bottle of NUTRAFIN Biological Aquarium Supplement....
Took a full range of readings from the Freshmaster test kit, then dosed up the tank according to new tank instructions and will be watching the levels like a hawk....
Daily full range of tests? More/less frequent?
Hopefully this will kick the cycle into action!
Poped into my LFS today and picked up a bottle of NUTRAFIN Biological Aquarium Supplement....
Took a full range of readings from the Freshmaster test kit, then dosed up the tank according to new tank instructions and will be watching the levels like a hawk....
Daily full range of tests? More/less frequent?
Hopefully this will kick the cycle into action!
OP
OP
The Editor
Aquarium Advice Activist
Hey all, got an update on the situation!
The troublesome floater floats no more! Also the tannins are leaching less and less which is only a good thing!
The Nutrafin Cycle I bought turns out to have been well out of date, so I returned it to the LFS and they gave me some bottles of API Stress Zyme instead....
However I seem to have stalled proceedings.... I'm registering 2-4ppm of ammonia, absolute 0 on nitrites, and nitrates 20-40ppm... and that's how its stayed for about a week...
I did a 50% pwc on Thursday, and redosed with the Stress Zyme...
Have I stalled the cycle? Or should I just wait it out for a while longer?
The troublesome floater floats no more! Also the tannins are leaching less and less which is only a good thing!
The Nutrafin Cycle I bought turns out to have been well out of date, so I returned it to the LFS and they gave me some bottles of API Stress Zyme instead....
However I seem to have stalled proceedings.... I'm registering 2-4ppm of ammonia, absolute 0 on nitrites, and nitrates 20-40ppm... and that's how its stayed for about a week...
I did a 50% pwc on Thursday, and redosed with the Stress Zyme...
Have I stalled the cycle? Or should I just wait it out for a while longer?
OP
OP
The Editor
Aquarium Advice Activist
Hello again everyone!
Quadruple post FTW!
Just thought I'd give a little update on proceedings and relate some questions I've got back to the greater knowledge base that you collectively are.
Firstly since my last post the ammonia levels have dropped right down to 0.25-0.5 ppm (it's kinda hard to tell sometimes but there's been a definite drop!).. This happened two weeks ago, and ammonia has stayed at this low level since then.
Nitrites have rocketed off of the scale and have stayed right up off of the scale for the past 2 weeks also, hard to judge whether the purple hue is lightening at all...
Nitrates are hovering between 20-40 ppm currently... I've taken to shaking up the bottle and test tube for 1-2mins rather than the 30 secs advised after reading many reviews where people seemed to get more consistent results by shaking for longer... However in the region of 20-40 there's a lot of room for judgemental error, and I couldn't definitively say that there's been a rise in nitrates since the drop in ammonia....
So I'm still waiting for the nitrite spike/decay...
The question I have is how long does this second phase usually take? and is there anything I can do to help it along?
I now have the temp set at 28*C, after experiencing the foibles of buying used heaters on eBay (fully working my rear end!) I bought a brand new Fluval E50 which is in and working away...
Also one last feel around about stocking..
I've been using the aqadvisor.com stocking tool, and have come up with a stock of:
3 Guppies
2 Otos
1 Nerite snail
This puts me at 102% stocked, with 112% filtration capacity.
I've been looking around at my LFS's to see which ones had the healthiest looking fish, and have pretty much decided the little annexed shed on the big garden centre looked the best! The floor was wet, the lights were dim, but the tanks were clean and not too overstocked, and I saw no dead fish!
So... That's what's been happening... Just looking for some cycle reassurance/advice, and perhaps a few comments on the stocking plans...
Thanks!
Quadruple post FTW!
Just thought I'd give a little update on proceedings and relate some questions I've got back to the greater knowledge base that you collectively are.
Firstly since my last post the ammonia levels have dropped right down to 0.25-0.5 ppm (it's kinda hard to tell sometimes but there's been a definite drop!).. This happened two weeks ago, and ammonia has stayed at this low level since then.
Nitrites have rocketed off of the scale and have stayed right up off of the scale for the past 2 weeks also, hard to judge whether the purple hue is lightening at all...
Nitrates are hovering between 20-40 ppm currently... I've taken to shaking up the bottle and test tube for 1-2mins rather than the 30 secs advised after reading many reviews where people seemed to get more consistent results by shaking for longer... However in the region of 20-40 there's a lot of room for judgemental error, and I couldn't definitively say that there's been a rise in nitrates since the drop in ammonia....
So I'm still waiting for the nitrite spike/decay...
The question I have is how long does this second phase usually take? and is there anything I can do to help it along?
I now have the temp set at 28*C, after experiencing the foibles of buying used heaters on eBay (fully working my rear end!) I bought a brand new Fluval E50 which is in and working away...
Also one last feel around about stocking..
I've been using the aqadvisor.com stocking tool, and have come up with a stock of:
3 Guppies
2 Otos
1 Nerite snail
This puts me at 102% stocked, with 112% filtration capacity.
I've been looking around at my LFS's to see which ones had the healthiest looking fish, and have pretty much decided the little annexed shed on the big garden centre looked the best! The floor was wet, the lights were dim, but the tanks were clean and not too overstocked, and I saw no dead fish!
So... That's what's been happening... Just looking for some cycle reassurance/advice, and perhaps a few comments on the stocking plans...
Thanks!
jsoong
Aquarium Advice Addict
The nitrite phase lasted over 6 weeks when I did my original cycle (at ~20C). It should be faster at your temp, but there really is no good way of speeding things up apart from seeding. <Once you got one tank going, you can use that to seed all future tanks ... if you keep a spare filter pad in your tank, you can set up a cycled tank in a day or less.>
OP
OP
The Editor
Aquarium Advice Activist
I guess I'll just hang on in there then!
Though like you said once I'm through this phase I'll forever have a stock to seed with! Just curious, but how long would u leave a filter sponge in a cycled tank to pick up bacteria before transferring it into a new tank? Or do u just leave a sponge in at all times?
and would the addition then removal of this biofilter cause a mini-cycle in the original tank as the filter capacity suddenly drops?
Though like you said once I'm through this phase I'll forever have a stock to seed with! Just curious, but how long would u leave a filter sponge in a cycled tank to pick up bacteria before transferring it into a new tank? Or do u just leave a sponge in at all times?
and would the addition then removal of this biofilter cause a mini-cycle in the original tank as the filter capacity suddenly drops?
jsoong
Aquarium Advice Addict
I keep a sponge in the cycled tank at all times. <With a sump, I have lots of room for many filters.> Otherwise, the recommended time for seeding a new sponge is 4-6 weeks.
You can usu. remove 50% of your filter media without setting up a cycle. I usu. check the tanks just in case, but I have never seen anything other than a transient trace reading.
You can usu. remove 50% of your filter media without setting up a cycle. I usu. check the tanks just in case, but I have never seen anything other than a transient trace reading.
OP
OP
The Editor
Aquarium Advice Activist
IT'S GUPPY TIME!!!!
Finally water parameters were good to go today, so did a big water change then did a tour of the LFS's to pick out the healthiest looking fish!
I am now the proud carer of a trio of Guppies!
Will get some pictures up when I get hold of a decent camera... iPhone cameras were in no way meant for snapping fish
They seem pretty happy together, no fin nipping or fighting yet! Currently pecking at a chunk of courgette I wanted to try them with... The seem pretty interested in it! Also loving watch them playing in the filter outlet! Darting in and out of the fast flow etc.... It's only been a few short hours but I love them already!
Finally water parameters were good to go today, so did a big water change then did a tour of the LFS's to pick out the healthiest looking fish!
I am now the proud carer of a trio of Guppies!
Will get some pictures up when I get hold of a decent camera... iPhone cameras were in no way meant for snapping fish
They seem pretty happy together, no fin nipping or fighting yet! Currently pecking at a chunk of courgette I wanted to try them with... The seem pretty interested in it! Also loving watch them playing in the filter outlet! Darting in and out of the fast flow etc.... It's only been a few short hours but I love them already!
carey
Aquarium Advice Addict
Congratulations! Enjoy your new friends.
I find myself staring at my clowns all the time, i just love watching fish.
I find myself staring at my clowns all the time, i just love watching fish.
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