Fishless Cycle Log/Rebuild - Take II

[eco23]

Here's the next step. Install CCTV, monitor your tank while you're at work...and see of the cat is sabotaging the aquarium.

I hate to bring it up...but can you list the time frames again? You did a fish-in cycle (thanks to the lfs advice), then your first attempt at a fishless cycle, and now our upgraded cycle with new filter and seeded media.

We've tried something like this before...but try a big pwc and dose Prime 5x the normal amount based on the total volume of your tank. So, if it's a 20 gallon, dose the amount recommended for a 100 gallon tank.

I know James had a good idea about the filter being inefficient, but I just cycled a 10 gallon Marineland tank with a crap filter (set up for QT), in less than a day and it has remained fully cycled for almost 2 weeks now using seeded bio-media.

I'm getting back to my original thought that there is something in the water supply that doesn't want bacteria colonizing in the tank. if anything can neutralize it...5x the normal dose of Prime is a start.

 

[James_in_MN]

We've tried something like this before...but try a big pwc and dose Prime 5x the normal amount based on the total volume of your tank. So, if it's a 20 gallon, dose the amount recommended for a 100 gallon tank.

I know James had a good idea about the filter being inefficient, but I just cycled a 10 gallon Marineland tank with a crap filter (set up for QT), in less than a day and it has remained fully cycled for almost 2 weeks now using seeded bio-media.

I'm getting back to my original thought that there is something in the water supply that doesn't want bacteria colonizing in the tank. if anything can neutralize it...5x the normal dose of Prime is a start.

That's an interesting theory about the water supply issue. Two problems though.

1) I believe someone else said they were living in the same district, and therefore had the same water supply. This is the same one that gave her seed material for her filter the last time.

2) More Prime won't necessarily neutralize an unknown substance in the water. That's the equivalent of taking 5x the penicillin because the single dose didn't cure what ailed you. Better to find out what's causing the problem IMO.

It would be a good exercise for Libraygirl to check the local water supply again for what's in it. Even though her helpful neighbor believes they're on the same water supply, only the local municipality would be able to know for certain.

Is it possible that there's some other chemicals getting into the water just before it enters the house? I don't mean to offer scary possibilities.

What if Libraygirl picked up a water purifier and used that before putting water in her tank? That could help pick up anything that might be causing a problem. It would certainly be cheaper than buying mass quantities of spring water to use. She'd have to supplement the loss of minerals that would result, but I'm sure it would be worth it if it worked.

 

[eco23]

That's an interesting theory about the water supply issue. Two problems though.

1) I believe someone else said they were living in the same district, and therefore had the same water supply. This is the same one that gave her seed material for her filter the last time.

2) More Prime won't necessarily neutralize an unknown substance in the water. That's the equivalent of taking 5x the penicillin because the single dose didn't cure what ailed you. Better to find out what's causing the problem IMO.

It would be a good exercise for Libraygirl to check the local water supply again for what's in it. Even though her helpful neighbor believes they're on the same water supply, only the local municipality would be able to know for certain.

Is it possible that there's some other chemicals getting into the water just before it enters the house? I don't mean to offer scary possibilities.

What if Libraygirl picked up a water purifier and used that before putting water in her tank? That could help pick up anything that might be causing a problem. It would certainly be cheaper than buying mass quantities of spring water to use. She'd have to supplement the loss of minerals that would result, but I'm sure it would be worth it if it worked.

First thing, ask the landlord if he has some type of unit on the complex. The water issue may be isolated to the building instead of the entire municipality.

Prime can be used in extreme doses without negative consequences and is worth a shot IMO. Also, on the bottle of Prime itself...it says to use a higher dosage for extreme levels of things like chloramines...so according to them, sometimes more is better.

I am the director of sales and marketing for an international water purification company and have a fairly extensive knowledge of commercial and residential water purification units. Something like a Brita filter will make your water taste better...but it will have absolutely no effect on any type of ability to colonize beneficial bacteria in an aquarium IMO. Truly efficient units (I'm not talking about Rainsoft or Home Depot purchases) at least in a residential setting, not necessarily designed for aquarium uses, tend to start around $700, and some of our more high end units hit around 7G's. That's not even mentioning commercial units.

There are obviously RO/DI units normally used in SW setups which are a viable option, but costs can begin in the hundreds of dollars and also present the other issue of stripping out necessary trace nutrients that are normally replaced by different substrates and media in a SW setup.

Even though money would go into our company account if one of my reps knocked on her door, purchasing spring water would be a first step I'd highly recommend before looking into truly efficient residential units in this situation. But since you've already got the Prime...I'd give it a shot first

 

[James_in_MN]

First thing, ask the landlord if he has some type of unit on the complex. The water issue may be isolated to the building instead of the entire municipality.

That's very possible, but hopefully not the case for her sake. I'd probably be bothered if my landlord was doing something extra to my water supply without my knowledge.

Prime can be used in extreme doses without negative consequences and is worth a shot IMO. Also, on the bottle of Prime itself...it says to use a higher dosage for extreme levels of things like chloramines...so according to them, sometimes more is better.

Well yes, I know that Prime (as well as other dechlorinators) will neutralize chloramine at higher doses, but that's the only compound it suggests removing by dosing at higher levels. I know it can't hurt to add more, but it's not really certain that it can help either.

I am the director of sales and marketing for an international water purification company and have a fairly extensive knowledge of commercial and residential water purification units. Something like a Brita filter will make your water taste better...but it will have absolutely no effect on any type of ability to colonize beneficial bacteria in an aquarium IMO. Truly efficient units (I'm not talking about Rainsoft or Home Depot purchases) at least in a residential setting, not necessarily designed for aquarium uses, tend to start around $700, and some of our more high end units hit around 7G's. That's not even mentioning commercial units.

That's very interesting. Since I use the PUR unit on my kitchen sink, I now have to wonder what the thing even does (besides eat a hole in my wallet). I don't use the water purifier when I fill my tank, only for drinking water.

Well, R/O water at the grocery store sure looks like the less costly option now, doesn't it?

One of my LFS has a R/O water dispenser. They charge less for the water (something like 30 cents) and allow you to fill up 5 gallon buckets there. That would be a better option than buying 10 jugs of water at Target I believe.

 

[librarygirl]

OK well clearly I'm the first person in history that can't cycle a tank

Ammonia is dropping some though, and I don't think it dropped in the other tank. So that must mean something right?

Eco, the timeline was roughly this:
March 25 - bought a 5 gal Hex Marineland tank from PetSmart. Set it up and let it "run" for the week suggested by PetSmart
April 1 - bought 3 Glofish. Soon after learned about cycling and did daily water testing and changes
April 6 - one of my fish had died after a bad first water change (had a siphon that needed to be shaken to get started and I made a mess and stressed out the fish). I returned the dead one to Petsmart and bought 2 more Glofish for a new total of 4
April 21 - upgraded to a Marineland Eclipse 12 gallon due to being told by AA members that my tank was too small for them. Filter pad was similar but larger than the one on the 5; I placed the pad from the 5 gal onto the 12's filter just in case any bacteria would be transferred over. Continued to do daily testing and changes.
May 1 - After a large pwc the night before, I woke up to all fish dead (I'm guessing PH shock as at the time I didn't know that the PH out of my tap is a lot higher than it gets after it sits for a while so it was a lot higher than the tank PH). This same day I drained the tank, refilled, and started fishless cycling with ACE ammonia. Problems in the tank (unexplained foam and odor), no nitrites or nitrates ever, not even with fish. A seeded sponge filter started to help (ammonia dropped after 24 hours and nitrAtes showed up) but then it stalled.
Early June - Gave up on this tank and packed it up
June 12 - Set up my current new 20 gal (bought everything new, including substrate and decor, did not use anything from previous tank) and started fishless cycle.

The other day I received the annual water quality report. It touts that Providence Water was ranked 2nd best in America in overall quality among water systems. I wonder if that means they put more or less chemicals in the water? They do add Chlorine, Flouride, Haloacetic Acids, Trihalomethanes (by-product of disinfection), etc. I don't know if anything abnormal is in there.

I doubt my landlord is doing anything to the water, I doubt he'd spend money on doing that and wouldn't I see some large contraption somewhere in the building or outside?

I'll try adding the Prime again. Once per week I have to top up the water due to evaporation (most recent was yesterday). I use a small plastic container for this purpose and I add several drops of Prime to the container when I fill it with water, so I'm sure I'm overdosing when I refill, but I can add a capful.

I have good filters now, I don't have the Marineland pads anymore. I have an AquaClear 20 HOB and a Fluval U2 Internal. The Aquaclear has a sponge, carbon, and biomax. The Fluval has two sponge cartridges (each has a layer of carbon pad attached) and biomax in the middle.

I've been reading other's fishless cycle logs online (from many discussion forums) and most people have nitrites by now, but there are some that haven't gotten them for a good month+ in. Maybe I'm just one of the slow ones (figures lol).

If I did order another Angels Plus active filter, would that be overkill in terms of filtration with the two filters I already have? Or should I just cut up the sponge and stuff it in my current filters, or would that ruin it? Even the smallest filter cube is a good size and it's rather unsightly lol But ZParticle and I think Jimmy has had good results with them. I'm just nervous b/c I got the foam on my other tank after I added the sponge; could have been a coincidence but I'm a bit nervous. So far the tank doesn't have foam (just some fine bubbles along the edges from the filter outtake drop and the airstone) and it doesn't have an odor at all (my other tank had a bad odor).

OK here's my plan I think:
1) Add more Prime
2) Wait a few more days. If by the middle of this week there's no NitrItes I'll either get an activated sponge filter or a live plant from a fish tank from an LFS (the only thing that worries me about that is any potential diseases I could bring in....not to mention snails. Blech.). Disease is a concern with the activated sponge too but according to their site they seem to really take care of their fish and QT like crazy, so I tend to trust them more.
3) I could also consider changing to Spring Water (I'd rather try Spring than R/O for convenience and cost purposes)

Any other suggestions welcome (including sledgehammers lol). Thanks for trying to help everyone, I'm sorry I'm STILL being a bother

 

[librarygirl]

Oh Eco, I just re-read your reply; do you think I should do a large PWC or just add the Prime to the tank? What would the pwc do?

Also I read that phosphates could help feed the bacteria too if my water doesn't have any (how do you know?). Should I add phosphates like fish food or Ph Down or would it not help?

 

[eco23]

First, I'm still hopeful (believe it or not) . You've seen significant drops in ammonia, and since you don't have plants...it's being converted, not evaporating or mysteriously disappearing...it has to be turning into low levels of nitrItes IMO.

As for the water quality report, it's not necessarily the whole story, but I agree with James that it's not a municipality wide issue or you probably wouldn't have a Petsmart or LFS's in the area (and you'd be on the news). BTW, the chlorine, flouride, haloacetic acids, trihalmoethanes are why our company is in business...all bad things (even the flouride...it's not really for your teeth). I don't think they relate to the issue at hand, but just a personal note.

I love pwc's for some reason. I'd personally recommend a big one when you add the bunch of Prime then dosing back up. I'm not saying it's a guarantee to fix anything, and anyone is welcome to argue against it, but I don't see any negatives of using a huge dose of it.

Ordering another filter won't hurt, but I wouldn't tell you it's necessary. As long as you're getting the bacteria in there i don't think the placement matters too much. The Angels Plus filters have seen some good results, but I think sometimes they're full of predominantly one type nitrifying bacteria over another. That probably explained why Jimmy had an ungodly amount of nitrItes for a while he couldn't keep down. In your case, a lot of nitrItes might be the best thing you've ever seen, lol.

I think your plan is perfect. Plants really seemed to be what kicked Firteen's cycle into gear, and they won't hurt. You can even use floating plants like anacharis or water sprite, and if you don't like the look of them, just throw em in the trash once we get your tank cycled.

I wouldn't worry about snails, some people love em, some people hate em...but there's some really easy tricks to get them out of your tank if you end up despising them.

As for phosphates, yeah add a tiny bit of FINELY ground up fish food during your next water change. That will add all the phosphates and nutrients the bacteria should need.

I'd do exactly what you listed for your 1,2,3 plan. If all else fails, I say switch to spring water. Check in with me first and we can figure out a good brand for you. Lots of brands claim to be natural "spring water", but in reality they come from a hose at the manufacturers facility and are basically run through the equivalent of a Pur filter or sometimes reverse osmosis. I can list some brands for you to use or avoid (also part of my job deals with bottled water).

Also, can someone tell me how to do that cool thing James does where you can quote between someone else's post? I've tried throwing quotation marks into them...but it doesn't work multiple times for the same post. It'd save me some back and forth reading between the app and the browser

 

[librarygirl]

First, I'm still hopeful (believe it or not) .

I'm glad you are

You've seen significant drops in ammonia, and since you don't have plants...it's being converted, not evaporating or mysteriously disappearing...it has to be turning into low levels of nitrItes IMO.

I hope so and that's my thinking too. I don't remember much drops in the last tank, from what I remember it stayed the deep green of 3-4 mostly the whole time and I hardly ever redosed. I'm re-dosing more often in this tank so hopefully that's a good sign.

I love pwc's for some reason. I'd personally recommend a big one when you add the bunch of Prime then dosing back up. I'm not saying it's a guarantee to fix anything, and anyone is welcome to argue against it, but I don't see any negatives of using a huge dose of it.

Ok I'll do a pwc. I have to buy another siphon. I bought a new one when I bought the new tank (and tossed the old in case it was contaminated from the tank from heck) and then accidentally threw it away It's a cheap one though and it has a squeeze pump which I like, so I can grab that today. I'll have to get some fish food too b/c I tossed my other can (I decided I hate flakes and wanted to switch to pellets and/or crisps). Would Ph Down with phosphates do the same thing or is fish food enough? I remember in my last tank after I added the ground up flake I got a cloudy tank.

Ordering another filter won't hurt, but I wouldn't tell you it's necessary. As long as you're getting the bacteria in there i don't think the placement matters too much. The Angels Plus filters have seen some good results, but I think sometimes they're full of predominantly one type nitrifying bacteria over another. That probably explained why Jimmy had an ungodly amount of nitrItes for a while he couldn't keep down. In your case, a lot of nitrItes might be the best thing you've ever seen, lol.

Funny thing is the last time I added the filter I had nitrAtes but no nitrItes. I guess it's something to consider if by the middle of this week nothing is changing.

I think your plan is perfect. Plants really seemed to be what kicked Firteen's cycle into gear, and they won't hurt. You can even use floating plants like anacharis or water sprite, and if you don't like the look of them, just throw em in the trash once we get your tank cycled.

I wouldn't worry about snails, some people love em, some people hate em...but there's some really easy tricks to get them out of your tank if you end up despising them.

The PetSmart near me does sell some plants that are in with their fish. But their tanks also have an unsightly amount of snails. I went there recently and noticed the gravel moving and then I realized it was hundreds of baby snails on the bottom. Ugh. Don't think I want them but I don't want to hurt them with the ammonia either. I'll have to decide between a plant or the sponge filter this week if nothing changes.

Also, can someone tell me how to do that cool thing James does where you can quote between someone else's post? I've tried throwing quotation marks into them...but it doesn't work multiple times for the same post. It'd save me some back and forth reading between the app and the browser

You mean like this? lol There may be another way to do it, but when you hit "reply" and the whole quoted post comes up, copy the part in the beginning that will say something like: "[ QUOTE=eco23;......]. Copy that and then paste it in front of each part you want to quote and add the closing [ /QUOTE ] after each paragraph, then add your reply, and repeat for each part you want to quote. I hope I'm explaining that right. Again there may be an easier way to do it but that's how I know.

Thanks again Eco. I'll do the pwc today and add some phosphates. Fingers crossed that something happens by Wed, or else I'll have to decide between a plant (with potential diseases and snails) or another sponge filter.

 

[eco23]

Thanks . I'll try the quote thing next time. I'm not sure many brands of pH down contain phosphates anymore, but if yours does...that'll work fine. Don't lose hope. The things we want to see happen are happening...just not as quickly as we'd like. You'll be the zen master of patience once this is done

 

[jetajockey]

I think James does have a valid point about possible underfiltering. It's dependent on a lot of factors, so it shouldn't be ruled out just yet. I have had a few tanks that had trouble cycling, and the only thing I could narrow it down to was filtration, or lack thereof, compared to bioload.

One example was a 10g tank, several months old, still showing ammonia/nitrites long after its sister tanks were running smoothly. Seeded media added, still no major change.

There were multiple solutions to the problem, in one I added sponge filtration, in another, I added a much better filter (it had an ancient topfin 10-esque thing on it) , and on several I added a sponge prefilter, which served two purposes, saving fry and also adding a ton of surface area for biofiltration.

 

[jetajockey]

@libraygirl, if you do go with another active sponge filter, I don't suggest cutting it up, run it as it is, sponge filters have way better biofiltration than most hob filters. As long as they are kept fairly clean, they are hard to beat. This, and cost efficiency, are the two reasons why I have 30+ sponge filters running as we speak.

I'd run it in the tank alongside whatever filter you have in there for several weeks after your cycle is settled.

 

[eco23]

I think James does have a valid point about possible underfiltering. It's dependent on a lot of factors, so it shouldn't be ruled out just yet.

If I'm not mistaken, this is upgraded filtration from the first 2 attempts. I'd definitely agree that it may be solely responsible for the gains we've seen with this third attempt. I still believe there's a missing variable though.

IMO, if this new filtration and seeded media doesn't kick things into gear, I'd vote for trying to detox the water (I have no idea if 5x Prime will work, but it's all I've got for ideas) then trying a new water source if we're still not meeting success.

 

[jetajockey]

I've read that ammonium conversion is much harder (if not impossible) for bacteria than free ammonia conversion, but I haven't studied it enough to say for sure either way. It does help explain why nitrification significantly slows as ph drops below neutral (as it drops, free ammonia(NH3) becomes ammonium(NH+4).

Prime detoxifies NH3 by temporarily converting it to NH+4.

 

[eco23]

I've read that ammonium conversion is much harder (if not impossible) for bacteria than free ammonia conversion, but I haven't studied it enough to say for sure either way. It does help explain why nitrification significantly slows as ph drops below neutral (as it drops, free ammonia(NH3) becomes ammonium(NH+4).

Prime detoxifies NH3 by temporarily converting it to NH+4.

So you may believe that when Prime converts ammonia to ammonium, it is not left available for the bio-filter? My pwc schedule and API kit would have to disagree.

Even if that was the case, the ammonia isn't what I'd hypothetically be targeting and if the conversion caused by Prime is only temporary, it shouldn't have a major impact regardless. Truth be told, I don't know what it might help neutralize (some degree of heavy metals the BB is having an issue with?...no real idea honestly), but I still think it's worth a shot at this point.

 

[zparticle]

This will be an unpopular suggestion, and I'm a newbie, but what about putting a single fish in there and see if it can even live in the water. If there actually is something so bad in the water that it kills all of the bacteria wouldn't it effect the fish? At least if the fish went belly up right away you would know something is very wrong.

 

[eco23]

This will be an unpopular suggestion, and I'm a newbie, but what about putting a single fish in there and see if it can even live in the water. If there actually is something so bad in the water that it kills all of the bacteria wouldn't it effect the fish? At least if the fish went belly up right away you would know something is very wrong.

She had fish for a month before dying from unknown causes (possible pH shock). Problem is, no no2 during that period either.

 

[jetajockey]

So you may believe that when Prime converts ammonia to ammonium, it is not left available for the bio-filter? My pwc schedule and API kit would have to disagree.

Even if that was the case, the ammonia isn't what I'd hypothetically be targeting and if the conversion caused by Prime is only temporary, it shouldn't have a major impact regardless. Truth be told, I don't know what it might help neutralize (some degree of heavy metals the BB is having an issue with?...no real idea honestly), but I still think it's worth a shot at this point.

Actually I said that I've read about it in a few places, but like I said, I don't know enough either way. Also part of what I said was, from what I've read, ammonium is more difficult to process than free ammonia. I've not seen any actual data on it so I can't say for sure either way, but it's obviously going somewhere.

I really don't think adding more chemicals is going to solve anything. How long has this tank been going this time around, anyway?

I don't know what amount of heavy metals prime neutralizes, but I'd be scared to drink out of that faucet if heavy metals were the cause of the issue.

 

[librarygirl]

Well I saved a fish today (I didn't take it home, breathe Eco lol), or at least I hope so!

I went to PetSmart and was just looking at their tanks as I do when I go in. In one tank I noticed a fish in trouble. I can't remember what type it was, a good size fish (not huge but not small, a few inches), black, with puffy cheeks. A cichlid or some sort of Molly maybe. Anyway it was struggling to stay upright and the other fish were banging into it on purpose. I also thought I notice one or two white specks on the fish but the others looked OK and it wasn't enough to tell. The gravel looked gross, scum/dirt etc on top like it hadn't been vacuumed in a bit and some white specks like dust floating in the tank (most tanks had this I just noticed today and I've officially ruled them out as a source from which to buy fish). So the sales girl came out and asked if I needed help. I said I think that fish is in trouble, and I showed her. She looked and agreed and removed it and said she would put it in its own tank. I don't think the fish will live, it looked bad, but at least it'll die in peace without being bullied and eaten alive.

So I went to buy a new siphon and I noticed they had the Aqueon Water Changer on sale for 50% off and only had one. I grabbed it. I just used it and Oh My....awesome!! I absolutely love it! No buckets, no lugging, it's great! I was hesitant to spend more on this tank than I have to without it giving me anything back but I'm glad I bought it. I also got a cheap can of fish flakes with 1.1% of phosphorus.

I took out about 70% of the water. Then dumped a capful of Prime in the tank, swished it around. Filled it back up. Put another half capful of Prime in there. Added a couple of crumbs of fish food. Took an ammo reading and it was at 0.25. I redosed and am waiting to test the level to make sure it isn't too high.

My work today is done lol

If this tank doesn't give me a purple tube soon I'm going to go bonkers lol

 

[librarygirl]

The PetSmart from me is literally 5 minutes down the street. I'm assuming they are on the same water supply unless they do something to the water or get their own elsewhere. Another member on here also has fish and lives 10 minutes away (probably on the same water source) and a few other members on here are in the same state and have tanks. Plus if weird things were in the water I''m guessing it wouldn't have been ranked second best in America lol Although who knows.

I do have a PUR filter on my sink, just b/c I don't trust tap water in general, but don't use it for the tank water.

One dumb question: The Aqueon changer hooks up to the kitchen faucet to siphon and fill the tank. Um, is it sanitary to then use the faucet for water? I know, dumb question probably, but it's a bit nasty to think dirty fish water (well, I guess not in my case yet but still, some bacteria are probably in there lol) is touching my faucet which I then drink from and wash my dishes with.

I know, tell me to shut up

 

[jetajockey]

The fish water doesn't go into the faucet, it gets pushed down (by fresh tap water) through the bottom part of the plastic mechanism.